Women and MotoGP

[Squidpuppet]

[
http://www.motoblog.it/post/25630/mai-lin-stunt-girl
I thought this was relevant.
Sort of.


You can see how muscular she is in the bikini shots.
Which brings us back to the conversation about weights. You can weigh the same, but you're not necessarily made of the same stuff. Men will have a larger muscle mass to rest of body ratio compared to women so physically, which probably also leads to longer endurance.

Increased muscle mass does NOT directly transfer to increased endurance.

Perfect example is a 100 M sprinter and a marathon runner. A 100M sprinter couldnt carry those thighs around for very long.

[RatsMC]

MotoGP.com has listed many riders, even current riders, at over 135 lbs for years. I have followed it somewhat closely. I watched Nicky's weight drop on that site as we watched him get leaner over the last couple years. Vale has dropped weight there also and shows it in his face and hands last and this year. Vale is listed at 147 lbs and he is clearly the skinniest we have seen him since his early 20's.

I have been gathering the data from MotoGP.com for a couple of years. The weight numbers they have been listing have all gone up significantly within the past year. I'm not sure exactly why but since it is across the board, there must be a systemic change other than every rider gaining weight.

I am with Squidpuppet in this. Past year I had a look at the weights on the site also, and I haven´t noticed any significant increase this year. I am sure that, at least Aoyama, Bautista, Barbera, Rossi, and Pedrosa haven´t changed his weight in the site, while Simoncelli has lost one kilo compared to past year.

Past year you wrote the following in the Silly Season 2010 thread

I haven't confirmed this but the recent round of rookies moving into MotoGP seem to be significantly bigger than we have seen for several years. Depending on the information source, both Bautista and Simoncelli are above the average weight - SImoncelli so much so that he will move the average above 60kg.

When I made the average with the numbers from the site, I got 62 kg, while you had around 60. I think maybe you made your average with the numbers from mototheory, which are significantly lower than the ones in the official site (Pedrosa and Rossi in particular are 8 kg down in mototheory wrt motogp.com).

Anyway, that doesn´t change your main points. I haven´t had the time to follow this topic closely, but I don´t see any physical limitation that may prevent women from being succesful in MotoGP, as Pedrosa, Elías and other riders have demonstrated.

Most of the numbers on Mototheory came from MotoGP.com about 2 years ago. The change in the numbers is primarily the result of changes made there. Why they would change the weigths I am not really sure but I know that the riders haven't gained as much weight as is shown in the numbers so, either the old numbers or the new numbers have to be wrong. Anyway, I have updated teh numbers on Mototheory.


Very good memory on finding my previous post on weights. I do think that the average may have gone up this year but I'm not sure it is by much.

Anyway though, this still doesn't radically change things. The average weight is 137lbs which is the rigth riange for a medium frame woman between 5'4" and 5'8". The average weight of race winners is 134lbs which is within the range for a woman of medium frame from 5'3" to 5'7. A smaller woman in good shape with the musculature of an athlete could easily drop that height even lower.

[Squidpuppet]

I have been gathering the data from MotoGP.com for a couple of years. The weight numbers they have been listing have all gone up significantly within the past year.

Sorry Rats, I gotta disagree. I have been following MotoGP.com since its begining. The weights actually came down on a few riders this year. I have followed Rossi and Nicky intensely for their entire careers and have seen their training program and fitness goals change. They both lost wait during the last couple seasons and the site has reflected that. Not trying to be argumentative. Now I have added Lorenzo and Spies to my watch list. Lorenzo has the propensity to "pudge up" if he aint careful, so I want to follow that. And Spies is the lean mean training machine and I think he could use a couple punds of muscle.

That bike is also a lot bigger than a modern MotoGP bike.

I think I have to disagree here as well. 500s were mini-missles

It is very clear that the average weight of riders has gone down and the average weight of race winners has gone down even more.

I have to disagree again. The current WC and the pretender to his throne are big for GP. Lets take a stroll backwards. Rossi is bigger and heavier than Stoner, Nicky, KRJR, (pretty sure) Criville, Doohan, Schwantz, Rainey, Lawson, Gardner, Spencer, Franco Uncini, (prett sure) and KRSR. That covers three decades of WC's. I am pretty sure Jorge is as heavy as most of those guys as well. GP pilots have always been tiny jockies and it has fascinated me over the years how they have become slightly bigger and heavier.

But really, this doesn't change the overall discussion, if anything this trend supports the idea that a woman could be successful on a MotoGP bike.

I dont see the trend, but I agree that a womans genetics would not prevent them from being a winner.

[RatsMC]

We are debating points that aren't really on point when we get into the trends of weights and I really should not have introduced the point to the discussion. Turthfully, there is an in-depth discussion here (BARF), in particular take a look at posts by House. While I do not agree with many of his opinions, his facts are impeccable.

[Squidpuppet]

We are debating points that aren't really on point when we get into the trends of weights and I really should not have introduced the point to the discussion. Turthfully, there is an in-depth discussion here (BARF), in particular take a look at posts by House. While I do not agree with many of his opinions, his facts are impeccable.

I'll check it out.

Back on topic, sorry, I am eager to see/read about Elenas ride on the GSVR. Mostly curious about her feedback.

[phoenix1]

[I don't really see any value in entertaining the idea that male transvestites (we are referring to them as "women") can win MotoGP races.

Those would actually be female transvestites.

But seriously, I dont understand your statement. Are you saying you dont understand the value in "us talking about it", or are you saying you dont understand the value of a gal competing in GP?

Clarify for me please.

Not worth talking about.

If the two of us were to have a conversation about how I could get involved in GP, I think it would be a matter of fact conversation and we'd both agree that I'd need a bike that is bigger, heavier, torquier, and it would need more fuel. Why can't people extend the same sober assessment to women? If we are referring to a woman people start contemplating all manner of absurd genetic circumstances (i.e. the female version of Dani Pedrosa) that might lead to some female participants.

People seem to think it is more beneficial for women to maintain the current sport which has zero female participation than it is to assume a sport that has probably never sought a woman's council for anything might not be all that conducive to women. What unreason is fueling this perspective? By the time a girl hops on her first 600 she is already riding a bike designed for the average 5'9" 170lb male motorcycle consumer. Female participants are swimming upstream their entire careers.

Can I woman ride in MotoGP? Honestly, I have no idea, and it doesn't matter b/c I don't control humanity. However, human beings can control the racing bikes they ride via the formulas.

[Squidpuppet]

We are debating points that aren't really on point when we get into the trends of weights and I really should not have introduced the point to the discussion. Turthfully, there is an in-depth discussion here (BARF), in particular take a look at posts by House. While I do not agree with many of his opinions, his facts are impeccable.

Just checked out BARF.

I read Houses first four posts and had to stop. Sorry, but some of his facts are far from accurate. And it is the important facts that he is using to support his arguement that are the farthest off. He also takes unrelated facts to draw false conclusions. Way too much twisting and distorting of numbers and conjecture.

In just this single paragraph he has supplied many false "facts", puts a twisted spin on his theory, and is drawing conclusions without support.

But that changed in 2007, when MotoGP moved to 800s, electronic rider aids became a major subject of discussion, and 128-pound Casey Stoner won the championship. Not only that, 112-pound Dani Pedrosa finished 2nd, and 13 of the 18 races were won by riders at 130 pounds or less. By 2009 we had the Four Aliens, three of who are likely lighter than any champion in history. And these guys are certainly from the low side of the human weight bell curve, at least that part which produces top bike racers. So what are the chances of that?

And he draws this conclusion...After only 7 races

So, in short, if Spies and Simoncelli are evidence of anything, it's that size does matter...

Uh...2 rookies on bikes and tires tires they have never used before, and one at tracks he's never seen.

The guy is a spin doctor/conspiracy theorist of the highest order, and his "facts", especially from older decades, are pure speculation on his part, and wrong. When a guy presents his memory of events and numbers as fact, I cant take him seriously.

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[RatsMC]

Uh...2 rookies on bikes and tires tires they have never used before, and one at tracks he's never seen.

The guy is a spin doctor/conspiracy theorist of the highest order, and his "facts", especially from older decades, are pure speculation on his part, and wrong. When a guy presents his memory of events and numbers as fact, I cant take him seriously.

I actually started a topic very similar to that one over year ago because I needed to call him out on his conclusions. He is absolutely aconspiracy theorist and as you can see from the responses, very few people actually take him seriously. I personally have spent many, many hours arguing with him over his conslusions. There are very few people that can piss me off as much as he can. However, I have yet to identify serious flaws in his fact. He is not a "data guy" and does rely on memory but his memory is probably the best I have seen. The reason I suggested reading the topic is because there are interesting bits of information scattered between the paranoia and those conslusions based completely on fact are pretty sound and certainly an important perspective to have if you are serious about understanding MotoGP.

But yes, he should not be taken seriously.

[Squidpuppet]

Uh...2 rookies on bikes and tires tires they have never used before, and one at tracks he's never seen.

The guy is a spin doctor/conspiracy theorist of the highest order, and his "facts", especially from older decades, are pure speculation on his part, and wrong. When a guy presents his memory of events and numbers as fact, I cant take him seriously.

I actually started a topic very similar to that one over year ago because I needed to call him out on his conclusions. He is absolutely aconspiracy theorist and as you can see from the responses, very few people actually take him seriously. I personally have spent many, many hours arguing with him over his conslusions. There are very few people that can piss me off as much as he can. However, I have yet to identify serious flaws in his fact. He is not a "data guy" and does rely on memory but his memory is probably the best I have seen. The reason I suggested reading the topic is because there are interesting bits of information scattered between the paranoia and those conslusions based completely on fact are pretty sound and certainly an important perspective to have if you are serious about understanding MotoGP.

But yes, he should not be taken seriously.

Yeah, thats why I had to bail. But then I went back to read more. When someone asked him (not calling him out) about his personal experience with 2-strokes as a basis for comparison, House slammed him as a racer/bragger and refused to answer the question. There were way too many simple, direct questions posed to him that he refused to answer. Not a good sign. He apparently has never been on a track, let alone raced. And thats fine. You dont have to ride a bike to be a fan. However, to be the absolute authority on every single aspect of a sport that one has never participated in, is always suspect. Like the guy who tells you why guitar model X is a bad match with amplifier Y and provides charts and specs, yet he cant play a guitar.

You are right, there is a lot of potentially interesting discussion there, and some sharp cookies too, but I cant get past his avoiding, isolating data for misleading and manipulative purposes, using math where it doesnt work and the simple fact most of what he says is just plain wrong.

His memory sucks. According to him, 3 out of the 4 aliens are smaller that all previous world champs.
A simple google search will provide pics of the current WC shaking hands with many of the previous generations WCs, and Rossi is ALWAYS taller...usually a LOT. All those formers raced with an extremely lean frame in their day. Simple logic indicates that Rossi would be heavier, hence, House is full of doggy droppings.

He takes subjective theory and tries to sell it as objective fact. I aint buying.

His DORNA vs USA conspiracy theories and anti Euro (Spanish and Italian) ramblings border on paranoia and are even a little bit creepy.

I'll stay here thanks.

[RatsMC]

Yep, I (and Jim Race from MotoGPod) have pretty much removed ourselves from discussion there primarily because House is an ass (when I ran into Jim at Laguna Seca we spent most of the time complaining about House). Now, I just poke in to see if there are any interesting ideas floating around - that is where I got this idea for this topic.

[Squidpuppet]

Back on topic....

Great style, and bigger than Dani.

[RatsMC]

Look at her hands. Who is that? Pedrosa? Elias?

Rusty, we need your help here.

[The Scribe]

His DORNA vs USA conspiracy theories and anti Euro (Spanish and Italian) ramblings border on paranoia

I thought the same, but being spanish I wondered if it was just me feeling patriotic or House being paranoid. Now I am much more relieved.

All in all, there are some interesting posts in there, but after a while I could only read those that were reasonably short (specially those from House). I found the last one interesting (from karlitos), showing some potential disadvantages of low weight that are usually overlooked.

And I strongly disagree with the idea of a ballast to level the field, but this could be another thread I guess.

[Squidpuppet]

Look at her hands. Who is that? Pedrosa? Elias?

Rusty, we need your help here.

Cant be Elias....too much of her is still on the bike.

[RatsMC]

Cant be Elias....too much of her is still on the bike.

I thought that too but I was mostly noticing her hand. However, even in that pic of Elias it is pretty clear he holds the bars differently.

I found the last one interesting (from karlitos), showing some potential disadvantages of low weight that are usually overlooked.

Karlitos is also an ass. Or at least he was. His anti-Hayden gibberish got to the point where I put him on my ignore list. So far, he is the only person I have ever set to ignore on a forum.

I have, however, recently un-ignored him because the anti-Hayden fervor has died down. He is a smart guy, just really too emotional about one rider to be rational.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

Are we sure that's a she? Not all with long hair are female...

Squidpuppet beat me to it. Although, I guess too big to be Pedrosa. Maybe Melandri...
I can't really say until I see a full-lean shot...
I'm envious of that Hayden replica helmet, though.

I'm trying to figure out where that Elias picture from '07 came from; special livery, special helmet and boots...

[RatsMC]

I was more talking about the hands than the overall riding style.

I think I am beginning to define riding style by how a rider holds on.

[phil]

A few weeks ago most folks this side of the pond hadn't heard of Elana Myers, now it seems even people with a fleeting interest in motorcycles know who she is as every other day I seem to have pictures, interviews, video links and the like emailed to me.
I showed the boys (you know...aged mid 30's to early 50's) and we all agreed that all the hype surrounding her, while attracting sponsors, can only distract from the racing. I think its on the OTT interview she says she'd done 4 or 5 interviews that day (race day).
We hope that while the media attention helps her it doesnt turn around and bite her in the ass, because the nay-sayers can then say "see, all that hype and she amounted to nothing" rather than "she was being pulled in so many directions she simply got burnt out with it all".
I hope and trust she has good handlers around her who can watch this closly and not let her get too distracted or un-grounded, so then we can see her true and full potential.
Good luck to her.

[rttakezo]

Back to page 1 of the program...Just to set the record straight, between Taru and Katja was Igata Tomoko. No slouch, tied with Taru for most points ever by female racer in GP's; 23.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

I think I am beginning to define riding style by how a rider holds on.

Something new to ponder...
I would have put 50% of "how they hold on" to bike design. Capirex on the 990cc Desmosedicis looked to be hoping to hang on to the thing for dear life far more than any of his own style preferences would have allowed. Conversely, Hayden in the 800cc era... I guess I'll start looking at pictures.

We hope that while the media attention helps her it doesnt turn around and bite her in the ass, because the nay-sayers can then say "see, all that hype and she amounted to nothing" rather than "she was being pulled in so many directions she simply got burnt out with it all".
I hope and trust she has good handlers around her who can watch this closly and not let her get too distracted or un-grounded, so then we can see her true and full potential.

I think that was all a function of everyone having been in the same location for the weekend, with relatively few stories to cover. Here in America, after Indy, she'll easily be able to hide in plain sight again. I highly doubt many European journos will have time to hound her all through the rest of the year and off-season.
I agree with you, though, in that I hope she doesn't become Danica Patrick. As (what did lucy call it...?) "spiritually nourishing" as she is, Ms. Myers is far too young for all that, to say the least.

[RatsMC]

Back to page 1 of the program...Just to set the record straight, between Taru and Katja was Igata Tomoko. No slouch, tied with Taru for most points ever by female racer in GP's; 23.

Welcome and thanks for that. Spending some time tracking down info on her now.

I think I am beginning to define riding style by how a rider holds on.

Something new to ponder...
I would have put 50% of "how they hold on" to bike design. Capirex on the 990cc Desmosedicis looked to be hoping to hang on to the thing for dear life far more than any of his own style preferences would have allowed. Conversely, Hayden in the 800cc era... I guess I'll start looking at pictures.

I have to agree with that though I might not put it to design so much as characteristic since I'm not sure that the engineers have a firm grip on the connection between design and actually riding the damn thing. Peziosi might be the exception.

We hope that while the media attention helps her it doesnt turn around and bite her in the ass, because the nay-sayers can then say "see, all that hype and she amounted to nothing" rather than "she was being pulled in so many directions she simply got burnt out with it all".
I hope and trust she has good handlers around her who can watch this closly and not let her get too distracted or un-grounded, so then we can see her true and full potential.

I think that was all a function of everyone having been in the same location for the weekend, with relatively few stories to cover. Here in America, after Indy, she'll easily be able to hide in plain sight again. I highly doubt many European journos will have time to hound her all through the rest of the year and off-season.
I agree with you, though, in that I hope she doesn't become Danica Patrick. As (what did lucy call it...?) "spiritually nourishing" as she is, Ms. Myers is far too young for all that, to say the least.

A valid concern phil. One of the things racing in the US forces riders to learn at a very early stage is how to manage living in public and appreciating the media and a central component of your job. We can thanks NASCAR for this. Hayden and even Spies are both products of this training - Hayden is supremely diplomatic and and engaging to journalists while Spies is able to maintain a private persona in the middle of talking with the media in totally unscripted interviews.

Myers has been writing a column in Roadracing World for a couple of years now so she has lived a public life for some time, we'll see if she is comfortable maintaining that. Right nwo, she looks pretty committed.

OF course, even if she enjoys the spotlight, there is always the risk of not living up to what could easily become unfair expectations. While Myers is very fast and showing a ton of potential, it is very hard to gauge how far that potential extends and when there is a lot of attention being paid by the public, the expectations will continue to rise.

[heng47]

I have to agree with that though I might not put it to design so much as characteristic since I'm not sure that the engineers have a firm grip on the connection between design and actually riding the damn thing. Peziosi might be the exception.

I've pondered that quite a bit, and having managed to speak to both Italian and Japanese designers, I think that riding cultural in the respective countries also influence a lot how they design their bikes, riding with flair and flamboyance or being at peace with the surroundings (or neighbours). Although designers are supposed to try to design from an un-biased point of view, somethings are subconscious and can't be riddened of easily.

[Squidpuppet]

[
I thought that too but I was mostly noticing her hand. However, even in that pic of Elias it is pretty clear he holds the bars differently.


.

Next time you see a GOOD pic of Spies whith his elbow way out, look at the odd way he contorts his inner hand grip to accomodate the elbow extension. It reminds me of an exagerated MX hand grip on the OUTSIDE bar when shoving the bike down. Kinda cool looking. But frankly, I think that component of Spies style is hurting him. Quick direction changes become more combersome. Watching him go the the Corkscrew, it looked like a lot more work than other riders. He seems to be steering the bike a lot with his hips, thighs and the pegs, which is fine, but he could preserve a lot of energy if he used the bars a little more.

Just a slow guys OPINION.

[Squidpuppet]

We hope that while the media attention helps her it doesnt turn around and bite her in the ass, because the nay-sayers can then say "see, all that hype and she amounted to nothing" rather than "she was being pulled in so many directions she simply got burnt out with it all".
I hope and trust she has good handlers around her who can watch this closly and not let her get too distracted or un-grounded, so then we can see her true and full potential.
Good luck to her.

Strongly agree. Stay focused and keep the "show" on the periphery.

[motomania]

So far, he is the only person I have ever set to ignore on a forum.

Alright, I have a goal to shoot for