After 2011, who will be the GOATEE ?

[Squidpuppet]

If Stoner had been on an RCV in 2008, 09 and 10, I suspect the Era's final stats would look different.

[Oscar]

The guy who wins the championship does it because he has the best combination of all things needed - bike, tires(not so much anymore), team and rider.

So Ducati, in '07, having picked up as a second choice an ex-rookie to the premier class who had come 8th the previous year and had no WC's under his belt, placed him with a crew totally new to him, and then turned their attention to their no.1 rider, a multiple WC winner, third and voted by his peers best rider the previous year, and decided - 'hey, let's really get behind the new guy and forget about supporting our No. 1 rider - we don' need no Eyetalian rider on this team, no?' There HAS to be a reason why, if Ducati/Bridgestone were so fantastically superior that it wasn't a total Duc benefit in '07. Please share your 'solid argument' with us all as to why this wasn't the case.

Then in '11, obviously Stoner was the lucky beneficiary of a crew who - although completely new to the Honda and lacking all set-up data - were obviously able to do better than a team/rider combination with five year's experience of the brand, who'd been together since the very first time the 800 Honda turned a wheel in testing, who had managed to secure two second and two third places in the WC in the previous four years, with all of the data resources that comes with that experience. Dang, if only Nakamoto / Repsol had realised that what HRC REALLY needed was to bring Stoner's team aboard, they'd still have money in the bank now to keep Dovi! Again, I'm sure we all would deeply appreciate your 'solid argument'.

The "problem" I have with all these arguments here that involves Stoner is that if you don´t think Stoner is superior to all you get a lot of heat for that even if you have solid arguments.

So bring these 'solid arguments' to the table. Obviously the stats. are , if not false, then misleading in the extreme and I am sure all reasonable-minded motoGp aficionados would appreciate being led out of the dark night of their confusion by the shining light of your superior understanding.

[Zaphod]

Whether I'm right or wrong......and please, In making the comparisons below, I am not implying that they ride the same, have the same level of talent, personality etc, etc, etc..........I am comparing the two types of rider that there has been right through the history of our sport,....all comparisons are meant in a complimentary way.......

Those that are not only fast riders, but also posses an abitlity to offer extremly accurate feed back to help develop the bike into a better, faster machine that nearly anybody can get on and go quickly with.

Lawson, Doohan, Edwards, Rossi.

Those who still give the feedback, though perhaps not as well, and can just make up for machine short comings by just riding around the problems to achieve results.

Hailwood ( couldn't tell you what was wrong with the bike.......but could ride any old POS fast), Schwantz, Stoner.


I don't know where to put Rainey.........As I read that the titles in 91-92 were basically won on the 90 bike, an article/interview I read many moons ago had Rainey riding the "new" bike for 91/2....and reporting back that is was a POS...."Just give me the old bike......I know I can ride around it's faults"

With Roberts replying " Jesus Wayne, how are we ever going to get good new stuff, and move forward, if you keep going out and winning on the old bike !!? "

So I put Wayne with a foot in both camps.

[Gustav O]

So bring these 'solid arguments' to the table. Obviously the stats. are , if not false, then misleading in the extreme and I am sure all reasonable-minded motoGp aficionados would appreciate being led out of the dark night of their confusion by the shining light of your superior understanding.

Well. First of all I usually respect your opinion, I admire your enthusiasm and I like to read your posts. But.
Posts likes this is a clear and obvious example of what I referred to in my post. What is the point of pretending to care about my opinion when you at the same time is making fun of my opinion? Your entire post, to me at least, seems more like slander than really being even remotely interested in my what I mean. To be honest - posts like this really puts me off even being bothered to write here any more. If you want to know what I mean you can ask me like a grown up.
Might be I am missing the Aussie humour but I admit to being a bit thick headed so I might be at fault here, as well.

[Nachlauf]

Zaphod, you forgot Agostini.

Anyway, you don't need to repeat yourself. For you it seems to be important to praise Rossi's past performances, put him into the league of former legends and make abundantly clear that Stoner doesn't belong there.

This thread though is about the "EE". Most of Stoner's top-class career happened to take place in this era. And he beat the sh*t out of Rossi, stats-wise. If you want to point out Rossi's achievements prior to 2007 that's understandable, but also off-topic. The topic is: Who was the best in "EE"? And the answer is: Stoner, but Rossi isn't even second in every way because Jorge dented his records as well.

[chc-pr]

So bring these 'solid arguments' to the table. Obviously the stats. are , if not false, then misleading in the extreme and I am sure all reasonable-minded motoGp aficionados would appreciate being led out of the dark night of their confusion by the shining light of your superior understanding.

Well. First of all I usually respect your opinion, I admire your enthusiasm and I like to read your posts. But.
Posts likes this is a clear and obvious example of what I referred to in my post. What is the point of pretending to care about my opinion when you at the same time is making fun of my opinion? Your entire post, to me at least, seems more like slander than really being even remotely interested in my what I mean. To be honest - posts like this really puts me off even being bothered to write here any more. If you want to know what I mean you can ask me like a grown up.
Might be I am missing the Aussie humour but I admit to being a bit thick headed so I might be at fault here, as well.

And STILL you actually avoid delivering your 'solid arguements' instead focussing on argueing why you don't argue them. Its a position which frankly is lacking credibility. Like Oscar - if you have any valid arguements I would like to read them, instead of excuses why you don't post these as yet mythical reasons?

FWIW, Rossi is reported in MCN as saying he knew they were screwed after his first three laps on the Ducati and that 'people' were misled into thinking that the Ducati was good and Stoner was fragile and it just needed a more solid performer. I also noticed Rossi still can't bring himself to admit that HE was one of the most guilty of said same. Even now, both Rossi and his supporters still have to belittle Stoner. They just can't live with the truth of the matter.

[Oscar]

Your entire post, to me at least, seems more like slander than really being even remotely interested in my what I mean. To be honest - posts like this really puts me off even being bothered to write here any more.

A number of people - particularly phil and I - have spent a considerable amount of time compiling a set of statistics that provide a reasonably complete picture of the performance of the key riders in the E.E. Other writers elsewhere - for example on gpOne - have also actually done the work to show certain facts; a lap-by-lap analysis of the current year has been done (and reported on gpOne) that shows certain facts. You state that you have 'solid arguments' to dispute the conclusions to be drawn from those facts, I am asking you to do something more than provide two words of nay-saying.

'Intelligent debate' means more than just stating 'everybody else is wrong'. If you consider I have 'slandered' you, then I strongly suggest that you examine the definition of 'slander'; I think you will find it extremely difficult to sustain an argument that asking someone to substantiate their assertion is in any way, size, shape or form 'slanderous' ( or more correctly, since this is a published 'conversation', defamation). By comparison, asserting that a rider is a 'crasher' in the context of his peers when the statistics clearly show that that rider is within the median of the class IS defamatory.

Those who still give the feedback, though perhaps not as well, and can just make up for machine short comings by just riding around the problems to achieve results.

Hailwood ( couldn't tell you what was wrong with the bike.......but could ride any old POS fast), Schwantz, Stoner.

You're dead right about Hailwood - he needed a sticker on the tank to tell him how many gears the thing had! Schwantz - I don't know; but Nakamoto, for one, rather disagrees with you that Stoner doesn't give accurate feedback - and he pays the bills to fix what Stoner complains about and is happy to do so. It appears, from all the stuff that has come out of this year, that Stoner's reputation for not being a capable development rider comes down to what J.B. expressed as Ducati's previous unwillingness to address the shortcomings of the bike ( and J.B. is most certainly NOT what one could call a partial witness to Stoner's achievements, he's been dragged kicking and screaming into his current position of acceptance that Stoner was actually doing a good job).

[Zaphod]

Zaphod, you forgot Agostini.

For you it seems to be important to praise Rossi's past performances, put him into the league of former legends and make abundantly clear that Stoner doesn't belong there.

Nope....you got me wrong.

I put Rossi in the former, as JB rates him highly in this regard.

I put Stoner in the latter, as I haven't heard anything about him being exceptional in the former.

As I said, it's meant in praise.......obviously Dukkiti doesn't (well, Pretzlesonly at least) listen to anyone, and despite this, Stoner achieved what he did. ie, can ride a any old shitbox fast.

Maybe I should have put Stoner in the same box as Rainey......as a don't know.

If it's all about the EE era, then the stats should be enough......but they ol' whose better , who's best seems to be creeping back into the topic.

When Stoner has 9 titles, and as many wins...then that sort of comment/argument can be made. He's clearly the best (*Stat's wise) in the 800 era, but overall......not.

Looking at the stat's, I actually think that Lorenzo is the surprise package.

[Oscar]

I put Stoner in the latter, as I haven't heard anything about him being exceptional in the former.

I'd agree that nobody has stated Stoner to be 'exceptional' as a development guy, but I suggest that he's nowhere near incapable as some comentators imply. Here's Nakamoto, from his HRC report column, post P.I.: (bolding is my doing!)

To my mind, Casey is one of our more highly-strung riders. And by that, I certainly don't mean he's at all timid. I mean he's always sensitive, very aware and able to take extreme care over the smallest details. In fact, this causes a huge amount of work for us, responding to every little thing he points out. But every time we do, the result is clear – he gets better times from the bike. It's all worth it – this is the kind of rider we like.

Without trying to be a trumpet-blower extraordinaire for Stoner, if you combine that observation with J.B.'s comment that Ducati did not look at the problems when Stoner was there, it paints a picture that the failure of Ducati to develop the thing was far more their lack of response than a lack of input per se. That in no way is to suggest that there is necessarily equality of development ability between say Stoner and Rossi, but I don't think it is unfair to suggest that they are not as polar extremes as conventional wisdom places them. Let's nor forget that not every year of Yamaha's campaign since '04 has been stellar, and Rossi was not MIA during the development of the '07 bike (though nobody would argue that he wasn't severely distracted in '06..)

Ducati has shown every symptom of massively floundering in its development ability in '11 even with the undoubted experience and ability of the two most 'decorated' team members in the field - by a huge margin - advising them. It's the same engineering team that was there when Stoner was there. It would be drawing a remarkably long bow to suggest that a team of engineers who apparently cannot respond effectively to the input of an acknowledged expert rider and crew chief have suddenly lost an ability that they had but that wasn't being given the right information by their previous lead rider. The constant at Ducati is the engineering team, while the variable at HRC for the year when they managed to finally get up that one remaining step is Stoner and his team.

[dmelb]

Tribute to the 800 MotoGP King. Only one man could have ridden the Ducati like this...

[Tumi]

Do we need another topic about who has been Greatest On a Ducati?

[DJH]

Do we need another topic about who has been Greatest On a Ducati?

Maybe. I'm sure Tourn and others would find some angle to tell you that it's Rossi.

[Zaphod]

.......I thought at the top of every page it says "Intelligent debate about motorcycle racing".........

We've read the stats, we know who won the most in this "era"...........and now we're back to the ol' Stoner/Rossi thing.........

good grief.

[Rick650]

A quote from Ron McElnea circa 1987
"... though the bike is twitching and sliding all over the place, he himself is smooth. It is as if he steers his body and the bike follows."
The quote was about Freddie Spencer when he was fast, but does it remind you of anyone else?

[Nachlauf]

Emmett linked this one today on his twitter thing: http://t.co/GJwcU0Il
Simply amazing.

[Zaphod]

A quote from Ron McElnea circa 1987
"... though the bike is twitching and sliding all over the place, he himself is smooth. It is as if he steers his body and the bike follows."
The quote was about Freddie Spencer when he was fast, but does it remind you of anyone else?

You're right...........sometimes people forget just how smooth Lawson was !

[gearheadstu]

Emmett linked this one today on his twitter thing: http://t.co/GJwcU0Il
Simply amazing.

As I was building that chart, one of the first thoughts I had was to marvel at the rest of the grid, at how they keep up enough motivation to even bother showing up.

In truth, the situation is really not quite that bad, but it isn't exactly far off the mark, either. Its actually probably a very good thing that the rules package will not be very stable for the next few years. That at least gives the possibility of someone else keeping Casey honest. Otherwise, I'm quite afraid that the limiting factor on his ability to win championships is his willingness to stay in the series year after year.

[Zaphod]

Well.....as ridiculous a statement as that is,.........you'd better enjoy watching him on two wheels while you can.

I know some people in the V8 Super-Taxi series........they have been spreading rumours for a while about casey going across by 2014.

Yesterday, while lying on the couch ill ( i try not to watch it......but it's the last bit of Motorsport on the box at this time of year)......lo- and behold..........in the same team garage as he was less than a month ago.

Maybe they ( the rumours) are right.

[SP_won]

Funny how his comments wrt CRT were along the lines of "we might as well be racing touring cars", maybe that was a "royal" we, meant literally.

[Zaphod]

It's not unusual for riders to have a bit of fun in a 4 wheeled machine.....and I took those rumours as just that. Then I saw this during the Bathurst telecast........and now three weeks later, he's back....in the same garage.

In the vid, he is talking to the team boss.........and the interest he is showing, the questions he is asking seem to indicate more than just a passing interest. The comment " it's a long way away in the future was somewhat balanced by him making the same comment on the MotoGP championship..remember, this was in October.......

Could be just me......... but..it's the best team in the country...and the older of the teams two drivers is looking like moving on by 2014.......

http://youtu.be/DvlzPF2M-VQ

It's well known Chad Reed has been keen on it for a while..as has Robbie Maddison.......

[Nachlauf]

Nothing is impossible. But to be honest, I'd expect Stoner to quit racing altogether and moving to his farm. The question is just: when? I guess it will happen rather soon, because I have a feeling that he doesn't want to raise his kids in Europe and in the focus of the media. He has the spine to just say good bye and feck off without caring what the fans want.

[Zaphod]

Yep....good luck to him.

I feel ( probably incorrectly) that Rossi is thinking the same. Racing since you were four.been there, done it all ( for both of them).

Stoner could quite possibly get out injury ( major) free...Rossi just missed that one. Gotta start to weigh into the equation.

Two quotes......

Dr Costa " Kevin Schwantz is one of the bravest riders ever seen......he is also going to be one of the sorest old men......."


Wayne Gardner on racing cars. He got a flat tyre at the end of Con-Rod straight.....going straight on at well over 200 kays an hour. Asked about it he said......

"It was a bit worrying as it was happening, but when everything came to a stop, I looked around and thought..Wow !.that didn't hurt at all !!"

That's gotta be appealing to a Motorcycle racer when they retire.....but still want to go fast in something......



Not implying that car racing isn't dangerous.........but you don't loose skin, bust scaphoids/collar bones etc due to a small mistake in car.

[WayneG]

Stoner is a huge V8 Supercar fan, has been since he was a kid. He was interviwed on Ch7 yesterday during the Sydney V8 race yesterday and he stated that his plan was to have a go at V8's "in a few years after he has finished in MotoGP". The amusing thing was that with in half an hour of him making the comment, Channel 7 were running News Headlines along the lines of "Stoner says his future lies on four wheels" and "Aussie champ to move to V8s". As Casey himself said, he has never even driven one of the cars so "having a go" initially means having a test drive. From there he can decides whether he would be competative or not.

[Zaphod]

If Gardner could be competitive........Stoner should be a shoe in.

Typical ch 7.........another personality for them.

I could see Cocherane foaming at the mouth to get him in as well........Roland Dane seemed interested in the possibilty.

I will put my money on CS being done with bikes by 2014........

PS...fingers crossed for Lowndes today Wayne...

[eddahenry]

I just hope when he gos to v8s ( sooner rather than later I think)
He drives it like he rides a motogp bike
Now that would be entertaining