After 2011, who will be the GOATEE ?

[RatsMC]

Well.....as ridiculous a statement as that is...

I don't believe that is a ridiculous statement. Even if I disagree with it, there is nothing ridiculous about it or even of holding that opinion.

[WayneG]

Well it appears Casey will get his test drive in a V8 supercar sooner than expected. He will be testing a Triple 8 Commodore on December 15.
http://www.speedcafe.com/2011/12/05/stoner-to-test-teamvodafone-v8-supercar/

[eddahenry]

well i hope he dosnt enjoy himself to much
because if he loves it i can see him leaving MotoGP as early as the end of next year

if it fills his need for speed and competition , with out the need to travel and live in Europe my opinion he will be gone

[Oscar]

Since Whincup is going to 'drag out his KTM superbike and see if Stoner can teach him to scrape his knee' - anybody want to have a few bob on which one will be closer on comparative times to the other in their respective specialties? I know where I have my money.

[Tourn46]

Since Whincup is going to 'drag out his KTM superbike and see if Stoner can teach him to scrape his knee' - anybody want to have a few bob on which one will be closer on comparative times to the other in their respective specialties? I know where I have my money.

I'd be very surprised if anyone expects a motorcycle racer to be slower in a car relative to a car racer hopping on a motorcycle. Specialists or not, the nature of car driving is easier and most importantly safer when you do not know the limits.

[Oscar]

Since Whincup is going to 'drag out his KTM superbike and see if Stoner can teach him to scrape his knee' - anybody want to have a few bob on which one will be closer on comparative times to the other in their respective specialties? I know where I have my money.

I'd be very surprised if anyone expects a motorcycle racer to be slower in a car relative to a car racer hopping on a motorcycle. Specialists or not, the nature of car driving is easier and most importantly safer when you do not know the limits.

It WAS a joke, Joyce.... but the V8 Supercars are bloody aircraft carriers and require a very particular style of driving, that's not particularly intuitive (apparently) - Ken Block had a run in one and spun it first corner, and getting sideways and controlling it is not exactly foreign to Block. Gardner was pretty competitive in them when they were rather more hotted-up road cars but was an incredible crash magnet; Beattie tried (briefly) in a fairly uncompetitive one and didn't get anywhere. Surtees and Hailwood did OK, though. It was more the 'see if he can teach me to get my knee down' that caused me to chuckle - ''I'll get some slicks from Dunlop"...

I wonder if Honda will allow Stoner to ride the KTM?

[Tourn46]

I wonder if Honda will allow Stoner to ride the KTM?

Any ideas what MX bike Rossi has been using? I can't see it being a Ducati!

[gearheadstu]

Any ideas what MX bike Rossi has been using?

He has a history of riding TM singles. And apparently still does so.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

Just need a place to do this...

(Link to source page)

[Oscar]

Well, in the inevitable end-of-season wash-up of comparisons, both in GpWeek and GpOne they are reporting a small ray of sunshine for Ducati Corse: the figures for one aspect of the lead rider's performance hasn't changed overly much from 2010 to 2011 - the number of crashes.

In '10, Stoner hit the deck 12 times; in '11 (after removing the two that were completely out of his control), Rossi scored 10. IIRC, in '10 Hayden had 11 crashes and I haven't seen any figures for him in '11 but all in all it seems as if standards were maintained in '11... and I think that rather blows a hole in the idea that Rossi wasn't trying!

[Zaphod]

Well.....as ridiculous a statement as that is...

I don't believe that is a ridiculous statement. Even if I disagree with it, there is nothing ridiculous about it or even of holding that opinion.

Point taken.

No offence intended...........I thought Lorenzo kept him "pretty honest", championship wise, despite the M1's short comings.

If anything, Lorenzo was impressive this year, and probably showed a few people up who were on better machinery.
I don't mean the following as a comparision of ability on a bike, or such....more the mental side of things..... I thought Lorenzo had a very "Rainey" season. Sensible, controlled riding....if he stood a chance, he went for it..if not, stay upright and get the points.

Has he been hanging out with Wayne ?

In regards to the crash comparison...Stoner did really well to only drop that POS that many times, considering his wins and podiums on it.

As for Rossi......I still belive, like alot of "older"riders before him ( and especially since the leg......and the embarresment of knocking Stoner off), that if the bike ain't there....I ain't gunna hurt myself trying for the highly unlikely, if not impossible.

Try and fix the thing first.

[Oscar]

No offence intended...........I thought Lorenzo kept him "pretty honest", championship wise, despite the M1's short comings.

I agree; despite what the points say, it was a far closer championship than some. Lorenzo did an excellent job and certainly minimised whatever shortcomings the M1 had, plus maximising any advantages; the drop at Silverstone was really his only major error of the season. If Spies had been able to take a few more podiums off Stoner and Lorenzo had not had the P.I. injury, I think we would have had a bit of a nail-biter, actually, and probably a Honda-Yamaha-Honda-Yamaha result.

As for Rossi......I still belive, like alot of "older"riders before him ( and especially since the leg......and the embarresment of knocking Stoner off), that if the bike ain't there....I ain't gunna hurt myself trying for the highly unlikely, if not impossible.

I don't have any dispute with that either. I think Rossi's statement that the data showed Stoner was, in effect, riding around impending crashes pretty much all the time is the most telling when putting the achievements of each on the Ducati in perspective and I suggest that anybody who denies Rossi the 'luxury' (and I use that word in a non-pejorative sense) of wanting to be around to enjoy his life after racing, is setting a ridiculous standard. That Stoner was able to ride like that and get away with it as far as he did, is something to rather wonder at, though - I suspect there are be some interesting analyses of the era yet to be delivered..

[Zaphod]

.........In regards to Spies, many have proffed that if he made better starts..........well.......

One person to say as much was Schwantz......after watching some old races ( off season, I'm bored...dragged out some old tapes to refresh the memory ! ).....Schwantz should know.........Jeez, he was a bloody shocker off the line !!!

I forgot just how bad he was at getting away ! .....usual result would be 3 to 8 places dropped before the first corner......

[RedJet]

Just need a place to do this...

(Link to source page)

I had no idea Stoner was in the Matrix!

[lebowski]

well i hope he dosnt enjoy himself to much
because if he loves it i can see him leaving MotoGP as early as the end of next year

if it fills his need for speed and competition , with out the need to travel and live in Europe my opinion he will be gone

I agree. If he manages to win on the 1000 first time out then I could see him drawing a line under his career. I hope that is not the case. Love him or hate him he makes MotoGP a far more interesting place and is undoubtedly (okay IMO) the most exciting rider to watch. In a class of freaks he just manages to go that bit harder. I for one would miss seeing that and touring cars just don't do it for me I'm afraid.

[WayneG]

Looks like Casey gets to have his bit of fun today.

https://twitter.com/#!/jamiewhincup/status/147144751492251648/photo/1

[eddahenry]

here is the video of the day
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/mot ... 6224146198

[tom]

Seemed like the best place to put this. I put it together a while ago but never posted it.

[Tourn46]

Seemed like the best place to put this. I put it together a while ago but never posted it

Goes to show how much Jorge carried Yamaha doesn't it.

[tom]

And as a note of explanation it's the 6 factory honda and yamaha bikes, 2011 results with Casey and again without. It was an exercise in exploring weather Honda was indeed dominant last year. Obviously flawed in that it can't factor in Danny's injury and missed races nor Simoncelli's learning curve and tragic death. I get the feeling the Honda still was the better of the two bikes but not by much.

[Cam D]

And as a note of explanation it's the 6 factory honda and yamaha bikes, 2011 results with Casey and again without. It was an exercise in exploring weather Honda was indeed dominant last year. Obviously flawed in that it can't factor in Danny's injury and missed races nor Simoncelli's learning curve and tragic death. I get the feeling the Honda still was the better of the two bikes but not by much.

I guess you could also argue that Jorge's results would have been even better with out the finger injury. Thanks for putting up the info, I guess at the end of the day Honda had more factory supported bikes fielded than any other team. Just goes to show if you throw enough $$$$ at a problem ......

[Tourn46]

I get the feeling the Honda still was the better of the two bikes but not by much.

I think the riders themselves felt the Honda was the best bike in 2011... Simoncelli definitely said he was on the best machine and Jorge was pretty convinced the Honda had an advantage.

I don't think there's many people that believe it was simply a case of being on a Honda = Win. But I think they did have the best all round performance... not by much, but that little amount is the difference in MotoGP and props to Honda for pulling that bike out the bag.

[motogpmd]

I guess you could also argue that Jorge's results would have been even better with out the finger injury. Thanks for putting up the info, I guess at the end of the day Honda had more factory supported bikes fielded than any other team. Just goes to show if you throw enough $$$$ at a problem ......

It's simple statistics. Honda stacked the deck by by having, in effect, four works bikes, while Yamaha had just two. Ducati was too far off the pace to count. So as it is likely that those six works bikes would fill the top six places, Honda had twice as many chances as Yamaha to get a good result. This doesn't prove that the Honda was the better bike, simply that it had better odds.

The perception of the relative merits of the two bikes is unquestionable colored by Stoner's performances. Dovizioso is the only rider to have ridden both bikes, and his opinion was that the Yamaha was the better bike under brakes and mid corner, while the Honda had the better traction and overall power. The Honda probably was the best bike, but not by much.

It is curious though that there has been so much discussion about Honda being the best bike in 2011. Also the inference by some people that Honda won by throwing lot's of money at the 2011 bike. The Yamaha was probably the best bike from at least 2008 to 2010, and very possibly in 2007, but I don't recall any great debate about this. Maybe because a lot of people were happy to think that it was Yamaha's rider(s) that made the difference in 2008 to 2010, not that the Yamaha was the best bike. The fact is of course that it is very rare that the best bike doesn't win the championship. The best riders tend to end up on the best bikes, which is hardly surprising, and best rider plus best bike has been an unbeatable combination in most championship years.

[Tourn46]

The best riders tend to end up on the best bikes, which is hardly surprising, and best rider plus best bike has been an unbeatable combination in most championship years.

I'm not sure anyone would disagree.

You say that people are happy to say 2008-2010 was down to the riders, there's plenty here who would say that about 2011 too.

This sport is about the rider, the team and the machine. When all of those are working well then that is when people win.

[Oscar]

Good stuff, Tom. Looking at the 'without CS' table, it's frankly fairly obvious that if it had not been for CS, Honda's effort in '11 would have been considered a 'fail', and I don't think that it's a stretch too far to postulate that if CS and VR had not swapped bikes the result would have been 'epic fail' with a Yamaha 1-2 again. Way back on p.2 of this thread I did a whimsical 'normalised' rider result taking into account the overall performance of the factory team, mainly as a joke, but your table shows that such 'normalisation' does place the relative performance of the brands into perspective.

With due respect to Spies, who did not have the year he could have been expected to achieve for a variety of reasons, the factory Yamaha team was operating with only one 'alien', whereas Repsol had effectively about 1.6 (allowing for DP's absence through injury), plus one highly consistent 'wingman' in AD. Without CS, the first three races says that Yamaha and Honda were very much replicating the JL - DP slug-fest of the second half of '10 - up to DP's accident. All due credit to Lorenzo's effort in '11, but I think that Spies' comment in '10 that 'Stoner on a Honda could be bad for everybody' (or something very similar to that) shows very considerable prescience.