Mugello Round: off-track stuff (2011 R8)

[Gustav O]

Oh, FFS. What a load of self-righteous BS, and I am referring to bovine fecal matter, not tyres.

What is self righteous BS? To think it is not OK for any rider to act like an idiot on or off the track? I appreciate this site because usually you can state your well versed opinion without having stuff like that thrown at you. We have different views on this topic and your opinion is as valid but does not negate mine to self righteous BS...

[Tormo4ever]

Finally Elías gets to ride the LCR until Brno ...

[JanBros]

I'm not sure why it would not be okay for riders to get a tow - I'm with Gustav; it's part of the game and I can't see why race direction would be expected to do anything about it.

it is ok to get a tow, in the race. it would be pretty stupid to forbid that
you could consider it to be ok during qualifying, after all, it's about the fastest time during QP, not that the guy in front will be happy

but why would anyone desperatly want a tow during free practise ??? it's not that you get important data out off it to set up your bike , and it might give you a wrong idea off "how well your are doing" because it isn't your true speed, but an artificial.

and why would for example Stoner not want anybody to get a tow ? he is testing several things to get data/laptimes to improve, and (I've said this before and it IS true, allthough not everyone believes that) if you have someone on your tow, the front runner looses speed. because off that, the data/laptime becomes less significant, and you could even consider it to be a "lost lap" when you are making very small changes to see if they deliver any gain at all. testing isn't about THE fastest laptime, but it's about consistent fast laptimes, and that consistency is lost when somebody is in your tow.
And I thinck Casey suffers most is because he always doesn't do many laps. if you do 10 laps, and on 2 off them somebody was towing, that's 20% off your laptimes/dat "ruined".

[Gustav O]

I assume that getting a tow of a faster rider gives a good idea of where you must improve. That must be the main reason for them to be looking for it i FP. You can always learn something from the faster guys at any level. Personally i have a lot to learn from the mediocre ones as well.

[Tormo4ever]

Tows are useless most of the times. You need to suss a quick lap for yourself, and not behind anyone. In the 125s, a lot of riders get tows from the front runners, you see them high up in the grid, but with no pace, then the race gives them a reality check.

At moto gp level, i don t really like seeing people waiting for a front runner to get a tow.

[Tormo4ever]

Look at the last race, when Dovi was in front of JL, they were going much slower. When Jorge took the lead of the couple, the lap times improved ... Yet Dovi wasn t losing time.

[Domino]

I am with domino on this one and saying it is out of concern for being taken out etc etc. I would say that is BS. It is ego talking - nothing more.
It does not matter that his intention was not to harm Randy - he went by him and intentionally PUNCHED him on track. How can that ever be ok - harm or no harm?
Also it would be ridicilous to try to govern it. What is it that you want to govern? Riders going slow on the track? Riders being close to another rider who usually is faster?
Also I am 100% confident that Casey himself has picked up a few tows earlier in his career.

The RdP incident wasn't about getting a tow it was about RdP swerving unpredictably and dangerously on the track while cruising. De Puniet himself admitted his mistake and Stoner was fined for it.

Stoner has complained about riders getting a tow and he has done some gesturing on track but he has never acted dangerously. All the top riders have complained about others getting a tow but people hear things differently when Stoner says them and the media jumps on it for that reason.

No it is not about RDP it is about Casey Stoner and the only reason people are treating Casey Stoner differently is because he is fast, period. It is a case of being starstruck and ignoring bad behavior because of being starstruck, pure and simple.

[Domino]

On the ONE and ONLY occassion that Stoner made physical contact with another rider (the "punch") he was fined by race direction and quite rightly so. There should never be physical contact under any circumstances and any incident should be jumped on by the officials. Which it was.
Below the level of contact we are in the realm of head shaking, fist waving, air kicking and expletives uttered within helmets which no one else hears. The exact same sort of behaviour that I will guarantee everyone of us have engaged in at one time or another when cut off in traffic by some idiot. I have no problem with this sort of behaviour from any rider. Should the team managers issue instructions before they go out; "I want you to push 100%, put your life on the line, use every bit of strength, talent and concentration you possess to put in the perfect lap, but above all else be polite". To single any rider out for this level of behaviour I believe is naive. I have seen Rossi lash out at slower riders, I have seen lorenzo do the same and Dani and many many others. In QP at the same GP Stoner was fined at (possibly the GP after) on TWO occassions in the one session Hayden was baulked by RdP and gave him a serve as he went passed. Later in the same session RdP himself was then baulked by Bautista (from memory) and gave him a serve as he went passed. All three incidents were clearly shown on TV yet not a word was said by the commentators, no articles were posted on web pages about them, no long forum debates ensued about the "unsportsmanlike" behaviour of Hayden or dePuniet. I doubt many people even noticed them. I have no problem with people not liking the head shaking and fist pumping but I can't see why one rider should be held up as a pariah for behaviour that is exhibited by all the riders at one time or another if they put in a dangerous position or their lap time is destroyed by a slower rider. Stoner may wave the fists more than others but he is also the one that is more often than not targetted for a tow.
Interestingly with the Stoner/Abraham incident during testing from what I have read, the most "unsportsmanlike" behaviour and the incident most likely to "bring the sport into disrepute" occurred in the pits not on the track. It was instigated by Abraham when he allegedly stormed into Stoner's pit to take matters further. Should he not also be castigated for this type of behaviour?

I was reading an interview post Le Mans and they were asking a a rider (I think it was Schwantz) about the contact between Simonccelli and Pedrosa. He had an interesting response: "At this level, you don't make contact unless you INTEND to". Given that Stoner is one of the best riders in the series right now and he was overtaking Karel it is not a stretch to assume that the contact MAY have been intentional, which is probably why Karel arched right on down to HRC to offer Casey a milkshake, I am sure.

Now, as far as Casey is concerned he probably needs to come to grips with the fact that there are and always will be slower riders on the track with him with which he will have to co-exist. If he cannot do that now with the much depleted MotoGP field he may actually suffer a stroke next year when the CRT bikes join the grid and are running six seconds a lap slower or possibly more. Traffic is coming Casey, better get used to it!

[motor]

We really should start a thread on Yamaha developments rather than talk about Stoner's mental disturbances...The way I look at it, the biggest development in the last few weeks is two consecutive Yamaha victories after all that hoo haa about honda domination. Rossi and Ducati has been struggling for months and Stoner has been getting irritated at such stuff for years so who cares

[Tormo4ever]

Exactly, and Casey has not dominated this year so far at all. Dani beat him once while in still poor shape, Dovi beat him last sunday too ... he got taken down in Jerez, and these last two races he got beat fair and square by Yamahas as well.. I never really got that talk about this year being an easy one for Casey. He doesn t usually react well to geting beaten while looking like the man to put the money on.

[Squidpuppet]

Not that I condone Caseys antics during FP and QP towards other riders as I think it is unacceptable but maybe it isn't the rider he is worried about
Having spent a good part of 3 years on a motorcycle that he knows can wash the front and spit you down the road at any givin moment , He may just not like slower riders on a subpar bike getting a tow and trying to keep up with him.
Knowing at any moment he may well have a ducati cruise missle on it's side heading towards him
Just a idear but who really knows where not him so it's all really just BS talk

But the behaviour is still there, perhaps even escalating, after the switch to Honda.

[Squidpuppet]

But I don't think it is as big of a deal as people seem to be making out of it.

I think some are talking about the recent events with Karel. Stoner is accused of brake checking him and there was an on track collision. Nobody went down though.

I understand the safety issues of guys going really slow on the race line, but I dont see why the one of the fastest guys on the planet worries so much when the slowest riders try to follow. Just lose them. You are faster, right? Just go fast and leave them behind. So they learn your secret lines, so they learn you secret braking points, BFD. Thay arent as fast as you, so those lines and markers are moot at their pace.

[RatsMC]

No it is not about RDP it is about Casey Stoner and the only reason people are treating Casey Stoner differently is because he is fast, period. It is a case of being starstruck and ignoring bad behavior because of being starstruck, pure and simple.

Personally, I consider swerving dangerously and unpredictably on the racing line while cruising to be more of an issue than a slap on the back. I don't believe Stoner receives any treatment that is different from anyone else. I assume you are talking about different treatment from Race Direction since every time there is a Stoner gesturing incident, the moto racing media explodes while none of them ever report on anyone else doing exactly the same thing.

I was reading an interview post Le Mans and they were asking a a rider (I think it was Schwantz) about the contact between Simonccelli and Pedrosa. He had an interesting response: "At this level, you don't make contact unless you INTEND to". Given that Stoner is one of the best riders in the series right now and he was overtaking Karel it is not a stretch to assume that the contact MAY have been intentional, which is probably why Karel arched right on down to HRC to offer Casey a milkshake, I am sure.

It is really easy for former racers to make really broad statements about MotoGP that can be taken to be universal. Schwantz was referring to guys actually racing each other. In this case, Stoner and Abraham weren't racing and the speed differential was not a component of Schwantz' statement.

But really, any judgement of the situation is impossible because we don't have enough information and I'd suggest that if you've made a determination of fault you are doing so based on huge assumptions.

[JoeKing]

I understand the safety issues of guys going really slow on the race line, but I dont see why the one of the fastest guys on the planet worries so much when the slowest riders try to follow. Just lose them. You are faster, right? Just go fast and leave them behind. So they learn your secret lines, so they learn you secret braking points, BFD. Thay arent as fast as you, so those lines and markers are moot at their pace.[/quote]


I don't think thats the point of Stoner's anger. CS is old school & he probably looks at following somewhat "un-gentlemenly"..cheating, if you will.

Further, considering their different career paths to MotoGP & social stations (Stoner's family literally selling the farm..living in a motorhome etc.) I wouldn't doubt CS looks at KA with the same respect as ..the stunters doing burn-outs in the parking lot.

In practice the object is not just to go round & round attempting to get the lowest lap time. There are many other things being tested which often times include going fast for a portion of a lap & then letting off. No one needs a rookie trying to prove to himself that CS (or anyone else) isn't REALLY faster than me.

[Gustav O]

Further, considering their different career paths to MotoGP & social stations (Stoner's family literally selling the farm..living in a motorhome etc.) I wouldn't doubt CS looks at KA with the same respect as ..the stunters doing burn-outs in the parking lot.

If THAT would be the case, and I do not believe that for one second, he would be a proper a-hole.

[Tormo4ever]

still, Karel seemed to chose to solve things the old way ... which i liked

[Gustav O]

still, Karel seemed to chose to solve things the old way ... which i liked

You mean straight talking, no BS style?

[RatsMC]

still, Karel seemed to chose to solve things the old way ... which i liked

You mean straight talking, no BS style?

You mean like Stoner?

[Gustav O]

You mean like Stoner?

I don´t know. That´s why I asked.

[Tormo4ever]

still, Karel seemed to chose to solve things the old way ... which i liked

You mean straight talking, no BS style?

Yeah, head up to casey s box and ask him hey what the f was that. Brake checking on someone on a bike? Come on ... thats so Biaggi ...

[Gustav O]

Come on ... thats so Biaggi ...

And I like Biaggi.

[Squidpuppet]

I don't think thats the point of Stoner's anger. CS is old school & he probably looks at following somewhat "un-gentlemenly"..cheating, if you will.

Cheating at what? There is no "result" at stake. Toseland, Ben, and now Cal have all had the luxury of a cooperative and helpful teammate to show them around the tracks. Karel is flying solo. Following a fast guy is all part of the bigger game, the whole weekend, not just the race. If the fast guy doesnt like it, he can pull over and distance himself, or run goofy lines to throw the newbie off. If a "slow" rider has the skill to stay on a "fast" riders ass for five laps, he has every right to occupy that section of the track.

Further, considering their different career paths to MotoGP & social stations (Stoner's family literally selling the farm..living in a motorhome etc.) I wouldn't doubt CS looks at KA with the same respect as ..the stunters doing burn-outs in the parking lot.

I hope thats false.

In practice the object is not just to go round & round attempting to get the lowest lap time. There are many other things being tested which often times include going fast for a portion of a lap & then letting off. No one needs a rookie trying to prove to himself that CS (or anyone else) isn't REALLY faster than me.

In testing sessions I'd agree, but not during standard FP and QP. It is a rookies goal and career objective to PROVE that he can keep up. Its racing.

[ipso]

Re: additional rules.
“Nooo”. Let them figure it out. It seems to me this is exactly the kind of thing that new rules aren’t good at anyway.

You get 16 twenty-something guys on a track together, and the Karel-Stoner thing is not only obvious, it’s cherished - IMO. That’s Rodeo! If I wanted racing/testing sanitized of all humanity I would watch The Grand Challenge series. And Karel walking over to discuss his issue face-to-face with Stoner is perfect – that’s how it’s done.

~~
If Karel wants to be a little follow-bitch, so be it. If Casey wants to be a little grippie-bitch, so be it.

Personally – I would be neither.

I would be just like Ben.

Ben is my number one product! I only purchase Ben. He needs a “New and Improved” sticker on his leathers.
~~

[RatsMC]

Yeah, head up to casey s box and ask him hey what the f was that. Brake checking on someone on a bike? Come on ... thats so Biaggi ...

I don't think we have any evidence of any brake-checking.

[Gustav O]

I don't think we have any evidence of any brake-checking.

Agreed. A veeery loose rumour.