Mugello Round: off-track stuff (2011 R8)

[WayneG]

Wayne Gardner's son Remy has just started racing in Spain for Elzamora and is showing promise. He should be banned immediately!

[Tormo4ever]

If KA bought his ride, then so be it. He didn t steal it from anyone, and that team wouldn t be in mgp if it wasnt KA riding it. So it s not like he took someone s bike.

Its a sad state of things, but without tobacco and booze money, this is what it is. Teams struggle and anyone with a cheque (i don t mean to be derogatory towards KA) will get a ride, providing he has the minimum required skill. KA has shut my big mouth, i thought he was gonna be dead last all year. I obviously underestimated Toni and Capirex.

[Gustav O]

If we only allow potential world champions to enter MotoGP, then over the next 6 years, I see only Marc Marquez, Alex Rins and maybe Maverick Vinales being added to the grid. While we lose maybe 6-8 other riders.

Marquez is the only rider I can see at the moment with the potential to beat Lorenzo, Stoner and Pedrosa in the future. The rest do not stand a chance. It's early for Vinales, but he shows promise, and reports from Spain about Rins are very promising.

Realistically, though, there are only ever going to be a few riders capable of winning a title. If we only allow potential champions, the grid would be down to 3 or 4 riders in most years.

Agreed. Of course we want the best riders in the world but it is just a very few that eventually will be WCs. Abraham has proved he is worthy of his ride - Capirossi is riding because of his name and I´d rather have him out than Abraham.

[Tormo4ever]

Rins is dicing it up in the national 125cc here with Alex ...Márquez. The kid you see in Marc´s pit on tv.

You guys think Márquez should move up to mgp in 2012, moto2 champion or not? I think definitely.

[Kropotkin]

Rins is dicing it up in the national 125cc here with Alex ...Márquez. The kid you see in Marc´s pit on tv.

You guys think Márquez should move up to mgp in 2012, moto2 champion or not? I think definitely.

On the one hand, it's a good idea to get out of Moto2 as quickly as possible, so you don't pick up too many bad habits. On the other, it's a real risk after just 1 year in Moto2. Depends on the ride he gets, I suppose.

[JoeKing]

There is no conflict between my statements. Future MotoGP candidates should be chosen on their potential to become world champions..not grid fillers, or do you believe he IS a potential WC : .

If we only allow potential world champions to enter MotoGP, then over the next 6 years, I see only Marc Marquez, Alex Rins and maybe Maverick Vinales being added to the grid. While we lose maybe 6-8 other riders.

Marquez is the only rider I can see at the moment with the potential to beat Lorenzo, Stoner and Pedrosa in the future. The rest do not stand a chance. It's early for Vinales, but he shows promise, and reports from Spain about Rins are very promising.

Realistically, though, there are only ever going to be a few riders capable of winning a title. If we only allow potential champions, the grid would be down to 3 or 4 riders in most years.

Krop

I had previously stated a broader definition as to who I thought deserved a seat in MotoGP. To look first at WSBK & Moto2 champions & most importantly to those showing an upward trajectory in their results. If the criteria simply becomes a financial standard what will follow is a race to the bottom in quality...I'd rather it be the opposite.


Even considering their struggles, I'd still say at the end of '10 Elias & Aoyama were better prospects than Abraham.

[Kropotkin]

Krop

I had previously stated a broader definition as to who I thought deserved a seat in MotoGP. To look first at WSBK & Moto2 champions & most importantly to those showing an upward trajectory in their results. If the criteria simply becomes a financial standard what will follow is a race to the bottom in quality...I'd rather it be the opposite.


Even considering their struggles, I'd still say at the end of '10 Elias & Aoyama were better prospects than Abraham.

Abraham was on an upward trajectory at the end of '10. His results had been improving, he was regularly spotted at the front of Moto2, and he won the final race (helped a bit by Toni Elias, of course). He is now regularly fastest of the satellite Ducatis (beating several former world champions). He earned his spot.

Two things: the entry criteria for MotoGP will never be solely financial. Unlike car racing, where a modicum of talent and a lot of money will buy you a winning ride, it is very difficult to ride a bike fast. Just look at Imre Toth: he is nowhere, despite his father throwing money at his racing career. Axel Pons is similar, though he's a better rider than Toth. In fact, look at World Supersport: It is full of rich kids getting their first chance of racing, and they're 7 seconds+ off the pace. Dorna has very strict entry criteria for MotoGP, and none of the rich Russian kids in WSS is ever going to get anywhere near the class.

Secondly, MotoGP is the most difficult class to race, a completely different kettle of fish to any other racing series. Guintoli comes back to MotoGP, to a bike he raced previously and tires he raced previously, and is 5 seconds off the pace, 2 seconds off the pace of the slowest riders. It is very hard to find anyone good enough to ride in the class because of the tires and their behavior. This is the reason we have the thin grids, and it's a huge risk to put anyone in MotoGP at the moment, see one Toni Elias.

[JoeKing]

Krop

I had previously stated a broader definition as to who I thought deserved a seat in MotoGP. To look first at WSBK & Moto2 champions & most importantly to those showing an upward trajectory in their results. If the criteria simply becomes a financial standard what will follow is a race to the bottom in quality...I'd rather it be the opposite.


Even considering their struggles, I'd still say at the end of '10 Elias & Aoyama were better prospects than Abraham.

Abraham was on an upward trajectory at the end of '10. His results had been improving, he was regularly spotted at the front of Moto2, and he won the final race (helped a bit by Toni Elias, of course). He is now regularly fastest of the satellite Ducatis (beating several former world champions). He earned his spot.


Upward trajectory??? 14-28-ret.-17-ret.-9-4-5-dns.-dnq.-dns.-18-3-6-10-10-1. Do you moonlight for the IPCC?
He has only "finished" ONCE as the highest placed satellite Ducati..ie. mildest case of herpes??

I'll end my crusade now..... in failure.. no hearts & minds won .

[Tormo4ever]

Joe, bottomline is that if he wasn t there , no one would be on that duke. it s the oldest duke out there and i dont think anyone elsepresented the money to race it this year, so would you rather not have him on the grid? He s doing ok. Either says he s worth more than we thought or that the second tier of the grid in moto gp aren t that fast.

[Marvellus]

Joe, bottomline is that if he wasn t there , no one would be on that duke. it s the oldest duke out there and i dont think anyone elsepresented the money to race it this year, so would you rather not have him on the grid? He s doing ok. Either says he s worth more than we thought or that the second tier of the grid in moto gp aren t that fast.

I completely agree with you, T.
JoeKing - either you're seriously "joking" or seems like you're hell bent on a personal mission to crucify the poor kid, KA. He is on "superiorly" inferior machinery especially compared to the factory spec bike of Cal Crutchlow and yet somehow from his lack of experience, is still ahead of Cal on the WC points table. I also think Cal is doing a sterling job despite him quitting the last race and earning the ire of Herve Poncharal.

[JoeKing]

If your read any of my previous posts my problem is not personal with Abraham, or his results in MotoGP; it is with whether or not, absent his father's influence he would have even been CONSIDERED a worthy candidate.

Let me create an hypothetical situation where you are the team owner of Marvellus MotoSports. Since you mentioned Crutchlow, you choose between 2 candidates.

On 1 hand there is CC who was the 2009 WSS champion, & last year won 3 WSBK races & 10 podiums. On the other you have Abraham: 24th in 125's, 14th in 250's in his third year & 10th in Moto2 with 1 (accident-al) win & 1 other podium.

Tough choice...hun?

[RedJet]

If your read any of my previous posts my problem is not personal with Abraham, or his results in MotoGP; it is with whether or not, absent his father's influence he would have even been CONSIDERED a worthy candidate.

I think out of all your posts on the subject this is the most clear and sensible - probably because I felt the same when it was announced he would join (and everything is after, in the end, about me). However, I think we can use this (and I say this after reading everyone's response to your argument - of which I agree with completely) that this is a...oh God, I hate this term but I'm going to say it...ugh...a "teaching moment". That perhaps we shouldn't qualify only those who fit into an absolute specific criteria. A square into a round hole just might reveal a diamond in the rough. AKA; KA. Who has, I really think, proven himself quite admirably.

Tough choice...hun?

I assume you meant "tough choice...huh? Cuz otherwise that's weird.

[Marvellus]

Well said, RedJet. If we haven't already learnt, then it's time that we did i.e. to throw out our preconceived prejudices and biases and stop being so judgemental. One may be allowed to think that he wasn't deserving of his MotoGP ride regardless of his dad's money but he has proven himself worthy. Just open your ears and mind to what the commentators are also saying. Now having proven himself worthy and going on the results if you compare Cal and Karel, are you open minded and big enough to see and admit you were wrong? If not, then you haven't learnt and it is really time you learn to move on.

If your read any of my previous posts my problem is not personal with Abraham, or his results in MotoGP; it is with whether or not, absent his father's influence he would have even been CONSIDERED a worthy candidate.

I think out of all your posts on the subject this is the most clear and sensible - probably because I felt the same when it was announced he would join (and everything is after, in the end, about me). However, I think we can use this (and I say this after reading everyone's response to your argument - of which I agree with completely) that this is a...oh God, I hate this term but I'm going to say it...ugh...a "teaching moment". That perhaps we shouldn't qualify only those who fit into an absolute specific criteria. A square into a round hole just might reveal a diamond in the rough. AKA; KA. Who has, I really think, proven himself quite admirably.

Tough choice...hun?

I assume you meant "tough choice...huh? Cuz otherwise that's weird.

[L34]

Just to add my 2cents in. I too was sceptical about Karel being in Motogp, (not any more) and yes
if it wasnt for his dads money he probably wouldnt be there.

But, Karel is showing he is capable of riding in the big league, he is improving all the time, his last race at Mugello KA's fastest lap was only 2 tenth slower than Nickys fastest lap and 4 tenth slower than Valentino!
Thats not too shabby and he has certainly shown that he can ride the Ducati better/faster than Marco Melandri ever could.

Good on him and good on his dad for having faith in his sons ability.

[ieism]

I seem to remember they let KA test the Duc before a decicion was made. In that test he was already very fast, much faster than expected.

It's not really fair to judge Abraham on his years in 250 and moto2. There are plenty of riders in Motogp that didn't perform that great in the lower classes. How many podiums for Espargaró in 125 &250? How about Niccolò Canepa?

[JoeKing]

That perhaps we shouldn't qualify only those who fit into an absolute specific criteria. A square into a round hole just might reveal a diamond in the rough. AKA; KA.

Would you be willing to include airline pilots & surgeons too?

It's not really fair to judge Abraham on his years in 250 and moto2. There are plenty of riders in Motogp that didn't perform that great in the lower classes. How many podiums for Espargaró in 125 &250? How about Niccolò Canepa?

Yep...got me there....didn't you just prove my point

[ieism]

It's not really fair to judge Abraham on his years in 250 and moto2. There are plenty of riders in Motogp that didn't perform that great in the lower classes. How many podiums for Espargaró in 125 &250? How about Niccolò Canepa?

Yep...got me there....didn't you just prove my point

I see what you mean, just saying Abraham is no better or worse than any other candidate. But what are the options?

What if Capirex is out next season and Randy decides he doesn't like the Duc that much afterall? Who would you like to see on the Pramac's next season? I don't reallly see a lot of guys in moto2 that will outperform Abraham, maybe Bradl and Marques but they hopefully won't settle for a satelite Duc. WSB is even worse, none of the younger guys are even close to the ex-motogp riders right now.

[Cam D]

It's not really fair to judge Abraham on his years in 250 and moto2. There are plenty of riders in Motogp that didn't perform that great in the lower classes. How many podiums for Espargaró in 125 &250? How about Niccolò Canepa?

Yep...got me there....didn't you just prove my point

I see what you mean, just saying Abraham is no better or worse than any other candidate. But what are the options?

What if Capirex is out next season and Randy decides he doesn't like the Duc that much afterall? Who would you like to see on the Pramac's next season? I don't reallly see a lot of guys in moto2 that will outperform Abraham, maybe Bradl and Marques but they hopefully won't settle for a satelite Duc. WSB is even worse, none of the younger guys are even close to the ex-motogp riders right now.

mmmm Randy in SBK ... that would be interesting!

[Albert]

I don't reallly see a lot of guys in moto2 that will outperform Abraham, maybe Bradl and Marques but they hopefully won't settle for a satelite Duc. WSB is even worse, none of the younger guys are even close to the ex-motogp riders right now.

Current rumours are linking Bradl to Tech 3 next season!
Yamaha are hopeful that Edwards will retire (gracefully I hope) and the Tech 3 team will then be Crutchlow and Bradl.

WSB -- yep - I agree with you! Their dominance appears to be due to their years in MotoGP and their ability to get the bike set up better better than the rest. They all have experience of complex electronics so maybe that's where they excel!

[Kropotkin]

I don't reallly see a lot of guys in moto2 that will outperform Abraham, maybe Bradl and Marques but they hopefully won't settle for a satelite Duc. WSB is even worse, none of the younger guys are even close to the ex-motogp riders right now.

Current rumours are linking Bradl to Tech 3 next season!
Yamaha are hopeful that Edwards will retire (gracefully I hope) and the Tech 3 team will then be Crutchlow and Bradl.

WSB -- yep - I agree with you! Their dominance appears to be due to their years in MotoGP and their ability to get the bike set up better better than the rest. They all have experience of complex electronics so maybe that's where they excel!

Edwards may stay on for another year at Yamaha's request to help develop the 1000. Signs are Yamaha are very interested in doing this.

[Albert]

Edwards may stay on for another year at Yamaha's request to help develop the 1000. Signs are Yamaha are very interested in doing this.

That makes far more sense to me than to have (what could almost be considered as) two rookies in the same team!
Despite the fact that he's never had a MotoGP win (and Nicky gets flack for 3??? ) Colin is well renowned for the accuracy of his feedback when it comes to development, be it machinery or tyres!

[TwoStroke Institute]

Edwards may stay on for another year at Yamaha's request to help develop the 1000. Signs are Yamaha are very interested in doing this.

That makes far more sense to me than to have (what could almost be considered as) two rookies in the same team!
Despite the fact that he's never had a MotoGP win (and Nicky gets flack for 3??? ) Colin is well renowned for the accuracy of his feedback when it comes to development, be it machinery or tyres!

............. or mixing prescription drugs and alcohol

[Tormo4ever]

Krop, are salaries one of the reasons these seasoned gp riders are so reluctant to go wsbk (apart flrom the grand prix chauvinism)? RdP, Elías ... these guys should definitely go WSBK if they could get competitive rides. I can imagine salaries n wsbk can t be all that good, but at the same time i guess moto gp satellite riders can t be making too much either. Would be interested to know where is Melandri making more money, at Yamaha SBK or in his last year at Gresini mgp. He already said he has more complex electonics now in the former than then in the latter.

[acidraine]

I find Stoner's actual comments (which I have pasted in below, they are from MCN) regarding Karel joining the MotoGP grid interesting and definitely not harsh, he said good things about him, but also voiced what many others were saying (and still are) about Abraham. I agree with what he said then and I still do. Karel is doing quite well, he hasn't amazed me, but I think he has earned a place on the grid. Is it possible that someone else from a different championship or lower classes could have done just as well or better, probably a very good chance, but in the end if the results are good enough to just make it to MotoGP, it really does come down to, who comes with the money.

STONER'S COMMENTS
“He is a good guy and he's working hard but he needs to get better results than what he is doing now to move up to MotoGP.

"There are a lot more people in line who deserve a ride more from their previous results. It's a tough job out there and if he comes into the class and really proves himself then that's fantastic.

"But he hasn't proven himself enough just yet. It is fantastic for him to have an opportunity like that but sometimes there are more deserving riders.

"Unfortunately the paddock just doesn't take the top riders from classes and put them in. It's who comes with the money.

"Some people have gone in with money and they have surprised everyone so this might give him a lot of motivation to come out and do well.

"There are probably people in national championships who should be with us who just don't get the right opportunities."

[Tormo4ever]

I don t think it s Casey s business to judge how someone gets a ride, unless that someone is clearly a threat to the rest of the field (( a physical threat i mean). There have been cases in f1 where it was clear that some riders (i remember this malaysian guy, god, he was TERRIBLE) were clearly not suitable for the top class. But it s not KAs case. Also , if it was one isolated incident, don t try to categorize it.

Casey should focus on the championship and not get involved in all these sideshows.