2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class

Who will win?

Rossi
2
5%
Lorenzo
5
12%
Spies
4
10%
Stoner
22
54%
Somincelli
5
12%
Pedrosa
3
7%
other
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 41

Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby ipso on Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:40 pm

Tormo4ever wrote:Ben schooled Simo ...

The broadcast director was infuriating me by not showing them more. For me, those two were the prime bout to watch. Luckily one of the passes was captured (showed in replay only.) With like 13 laps left I was hoping Ben would let Sic by and stock/learn and then dash away the last three laps (vs. having that done to him.)

(And I guess that is the case. Thanks for the quote ^ Gustav O!)

Sic said in his post-race interview that they had a good battle "we did a lot of overtake.” (#&$%*@!)

Oscar wrote:…Oh, and Spies handed Singlecelli a fine lesson in the difference between racing and merely riding fast.

Perfect.

______________

And until I’m proven wrong (until Sic stops going backwards from his grid position), or I am physically shown extra fuel in his tank after a race – I will continue to believe he is having RPMs shaved off of 6th gear by the self-correcting system, allowing him to finish the race, because of his weight inefficiency (like pinging a rental car off the speed max governor!) Wild speculation, but I’ve noticed Ben manage overall race pace much better than Simoncelli. It’s like abusing your tires early, abusing your fuel early, if I may coin a phrase!! :D

I wish Krop could get into that with the racers: if they include fuel efficiency in their on-track racecraft thoughts; like tires (vs. just the programming nerd doing it in the garage.) Or maybe that is part of what they are dialing-in during setup – various such compromises: “I need more power at the end of the straight””Ok, but you’ll have to give up a bit here.”
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby Gustav O on Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:36 pm

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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby RatsMC on Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:16 am

coyote wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:Just to revisit this briefly... I think the grid post-race shows that the fans still adore Rossi regardless of what the media say/results on the Ducati. Was a sight to behold, just wish I was there!

If anything, that scene must be an inspiration for Rossi rather than heaped more pressure on.


Exactly, it was great to see the fans behind him during and after the race, clearly seemed to gather the biggest applauds even with Dovi 2nd.


Except for those fans that started leaving halfway through the race. :shock:
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby Tourn46 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:24 am

RatsMC wrote:Except for those fans that started leaving halfway through the race. :shock:


Even if some did (which I personally did not see), you don't get scenes like that post-race for ANY other rider in the world.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby Oscar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:45 am

Was that rear BS on de Puniet's bike from the race? That is a pretty obvious glaring manufacturing fault, to my eye.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby motor on Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:59 am

Fantastic ride from Jorge...things looking good for Yamaha, but gotta wonder about the long term - they've found something alright, but that something is their 2010 chassis apparently.

Bloody good ride from Stoner, but strangely it ended up quite similar to his 2007 ride at Mugello - it was Barros then and Dovi now.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby ipso on Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:05 am

Oscar wrote:Was that rear BS on de Puniet's bike from the race? That is a pretty obvious glaring manufacturing fault, to my eye.

It seems like maybe too much rubber to be a full-race completion tire (too deep - too clean.) Or maybe some off-course “gravel work” on that one?

Maybe not. Here is some Pedrosa tire chunking from 2009 for comparison. Bridgestone derived no culpability on that one.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby RatsMC on Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:00 am

Speaking of tires, I'm left wondering what is Elias' deal this year. We've heard that he is unable to get heat into the tires because of his riding style and yet, in the hottest race of the year - in which tires temps were not a problem for anyone and might have even been hotter than preferable - Elias still rides backward.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby ipso on Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:13 am

RatsMC wrote:Speaking of tires, I'm left wondering what is Elias' deal this year. We've heard that he is unable to get heat into the tires because of his riding style and yet, in the hottest race of the year - in which tires temps were not a problem for anyone and might have even been hotter than preferable - Elias still rides backward.

But this weekend it wasn’t as much about getting enough temp, it was getting the correct tire temp for max grip. Just ask Stoner.

Elias’ riding style utilizes a much lower (and smoother) body COG, so he naturally does not “bob” the front-end or rear-end. (More bob = more tire flex = more heat.)

This is why Hayden raised his seat 40mm or so early on at Ducati (and Rossi with Yamaha, and then also later with Ducati) to effectively get more “bob” when breaking and accelerating, and thus more natural front-end and rear-end tire heat. However, these things are of course just one circle of a rather complex Venn diagram of other considerations – just one engineering solution. An engineer might just as easily decrease front spring lb. to get more front-end bob, depending on how much of the travel is being utilized on an all-out lap.

Another Venn circle is tire PSI.

Another Venn circle is compression damping.

Another Venn circle is rebound damping (both high-speed and low-speed – depending on track and surface)

Another Venn circle is tire choice.

Another Venn circle is the shock oil weight used

Another Venn circle is the shock shims.

Another Venn circle is session ambient temp expected.

Another Venn circle is jabbing vs. crushing the brake lever, and hand strength.

Wheels within wheels. Complex stuff. If, in fact, the LCR engineers are not incompetent, or unwilling to support HIS boutique riding style, then Elias has simply FAILED, in that he has not changed his riding style to support the geometry and design of the bike. He should talk to Ben about the riding style adaptability thing.

Adaptability is a cornerstone of a great rider. In this I see Elias as a kind of three legged dog.

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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby RatsMC on Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:24 am

ipso wrote: He should talk to Ben about the riding style adaptability thing.



Or Edwards.


I had honestly forgotten about the rumors of a divide between Elias and the LCR team.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby tom on Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:25 am

Thanks IPSO. I hadn't considered ride height as a factor in tire temp, but now I can see. And it also explains Rossi's 20mm increase in ride height earlier on in the year. I'm assuming your 'bob' is weight transfer forward under brakes?
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby frankrizzo on Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:38 am

agree with all of the above, top speed aside, how GOOD does the yamaha look under Lorenzo, that bike is doing exactly what he wants, a treat to watch. I thought Stoner would run away with it too but I guess not, great for the c'ship though. Rossi did as much as could have been expected I reckon there's a glimmer of hope at Ducati, small but it's there.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby ipso on Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:29 am

tom wrote:Thanks IPSO. I hadn't considered ride height as a factor in tire temp, but now I can see. And it also explains Rossi's 20mm increase in ride height earlier on in the year. I'm assuming your 'bob' is weight transfer forward under brakes?

(Jesus of Mary – I didn’t even include the primary first step Venn circles: the front and rear sag height %.)

“Bob” = yes.

I must add that the scenario – although entirely true and valid – is ludicrously over simplified. Changing rider height, vs. front-end, vs. swingarm, vs. engine COG - are all entirely different propositions, with their own engineering ..eco systems.

Although I believe changing someone’s seat cushion up 20mm is directly related to getting more heat in the tires, changing overall combined COG, or any other specific component of “height”, is much more complex, and tightly integrated within the larger thematic bike design – and indeed may have the exact opposite effect from team to team depending on said overall design assumptions and practices. What’s more, a change to one end of the bike directly affects the other – so it’s basically rocket science.

I’m reminded of Buzz Aldrin’s nickname “Dr. Rendezvous”.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby Cam D on Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:57 am

Interesting point from Dovi, I guess we forget these guys are young-ish (gpone)
The race pace at every track has fallen a lot compared to last year, and that isn't only because of the bikes. Myself, Jorge, Casey... we are still very young and continuously improving our level of performance."
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby Oscar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:56 pm

Just re-watched the race paying special attention to Stoner's performance WRT the tyre issue, and also the post-race press conference.

Stoner started having observable rear grip issues from about lap 10, with a big step-out, and his lap speed dropped from there by about 2 - 3 10ths pretty consistently. Despite the general commentary about Mugello being kinder to the Yams because of the flowing nature, I suspect that it in fact helped Stoner manage the grip issue far better than on stop-n-squirt circuits where he could have dropped like a brick. On lap 21, (from memory) as Dovi had closed right in, Stoner had a massive front-end lose that flicked him virtually completely out of the camera frame and damn-near highsided him.

As far as the issue being too much pressure, that is clear from what he said in the post-race Press debrief (from motoGp.com and I listened hard to the replay and it is an accurate transliteration):

We believe this was related to incorrect tyre pressures for today's track temperature and we should have probably reduced them a little compared with what we used in warm up because as soon as the tyres got up to a certain pressure, I lost all the grip in the rear and this led to me starting to close the front. I think this is why we were able to be so fast in the beginning of the race, as the tyres were able to warm up very quickly, but then the tyre overheated and I lost all grip.


Elsewhere he went into considerable detail about the reduction in contact patch area. I believe that the apparent confusion about pressure and the effect of too low a starting temp. on the heat in the compound (due to carcass flex issues) is because Stoner was using the term 'temperature' IN THIS CASE to refer to the temp. of the inflation air and its effect on the contact patch size.

Since Stoner and his team had already identified this as a problem in WUP - with a track temp of 29C - and not gone with their own hunch to drop a few pounds given the track temp. at the start of the race was 54C - is to me a bit of a mystery. I can only assume that the BS technician's opinion was given with such confidence that the team did not feel sufficient confidence in themselves to take their own decision on the matter. I'm not offering that assumption as any form of excuse, but more as a deduction that the tyre science at this level is yet one more aspect of overall package performance that has been taken beyond the level of the rider's ability to make intuitive judgements based on his experience and prior knowledge.

[As a minor wild speculation - I wonder if the BS technician's advice might have been tempered by knowledge of what had transpired during the Ducati test in excellent, warm weather a couple of weeks ago? If one were arguing with the techie and he was able to say - 'hey we KNOW what these tyres do at this track on this surface in this temp, nudge nudge, wink wink' then you'd certainly be more inclined to accept his advice...]
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby SP_won on Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:30 pm

Oscar wrote: but more as a deduction that the tyre science at this level is yet one more aspect of overall package performance that has been taken beyond the level of the rider's ability to make intuitive judgements based on his experience and prior knowledge.



Seems like Stoner would have us believe his ability to make those judgements is spot on, but it really raises an interesting point about who has the last word on an (crucial) aspect such as tyre pressure - rider?, tyre tech?, team decision (whatever that means)? Was Casey just venting with the benefit of hindsight, or was he over-ridden (no pun intended) on that matter?
Genuinely curious.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby Tourn46 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:36 pm

I'm not sure if this is applicable here as I haven't been able to catch up on all the posts yet... but I've seen in a few places arguments about Stoner's tyre pressure - Some people are basically saying that by using "incorrect" could mean the pressure was too low (to basically try and argue that he did his fast laps on cold tyres, I have no idea why)... categorically on the BBC coverage after the race in park firmé, Stoner said his tire pressure was too high.

Just wasn't sure if everyone else had this information, or had seen it.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby Gustav O on Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:37 pm

It sure seems like a very plausible explanation but we still have no proof that this was the cause for his tire problems as he never got to run the bike with the lower pressure.
Also one would assume that all riders run the same tire pressure? If so Stoners crew did not have the correct set up for the tires this time around as the others could run a better pace for the second part of the race.

Just speculating here. ;)
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby Tourn46 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:45 pm

A slightly different question, it's not necessarily aimed at Stoner in particular, but it's a good, current example.

Having had the issue earlier the day (which I think is why he was able to say that it was too high pressure specifically), do you think it makes the rider look for these issues? Does it effect them psychologically, especially when they do question the decision prior to the race?
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby DJH on Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:03 pm

Cam D wrote:Interesting point from Dovi, I guess we forget these guys are young-ish


And bit by bit Dovi is earning the right to sneakily slip his name amongst Lorenzo & Stoner.

He's doing well. Definitely justifying his spot on the factory bike this year.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby eddahenry on Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:14 pm

they may have got a bum steer from the BS tech but in the end Casey rides the bike and his team gets it ready for the race
Casey and his team made the wrong call plain and simple so casey well and truly lost the race because of his call on tyre pressures
Im pretty sure he was just plain pissed off at the screw up on his own part after the race
The most critical person on Casey Stoner is Casey stoner thats what we saw he was venting
It was to high a pressure that was the issue
A simple little experiment to explain it is to blow up a balloon lose in side in the cool and push it onto a flat surface its pretty easy to make a nice big contact patch on the table
than leave it out in the sun for a hour it heats up and the air inside expands raising the pressure casing the balloon to firm up and making the contact patch smaller to the table.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby ian606 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:51 pm

Tyre Pressures, an excuse:- I really don't understand the problem here. Stoner's team or him made the wrong decision simple as that. I would much rather he just said that and moved on, instead we get this incessant complaining. So he made the wrong choice, he had to actually race someone at the end and came of second/third best.... that's racing, surely. I admire the lad immensely but I'm afraid it's all becoming too much to listen to the post race interviews. Unless he wins, he complains and it's never his fault. Maybe he should have managed the tyres better, maybe he should have lowered them based upon his and his teams thoughts, maybe he should have followed a different race strategy.

He doesn't like getting beaten, good/great, that's a racer, perfect. However, if he's beaten, it's just a myriad of excuses and non of them are laid at his or his teams doorstep. Quite frankly, I'm tired of him. It hasn't been helped by his comments re Ducati and today I see via twitter that he has allegedly had a spat with Abraham (Dennis Noyes tweet) in the pits at the 1000cc testing. Maybe, if the grids get down to 1 rider then he'll be happy.

Having been a fan from his early days, I'm really disappointed. Unfortunately/fortunately, the more competitive the other bikes become will raise my interest week on week but I think it'll be with the mute button on, at least that way I can admire him from afar, so to speak.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby coyote on Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:34 pm

ian606 wrote: I admire the lad immensely but I'm afraid it's all becoming too much to listen to the post race interviews. Unless he wins, he complains and it's never his fault.


:?: The timing of this doesn't make sense. This is what we've heard from Stoner the last 5 years, but now you're tired of him? For me it's expected, and I would think that the people who don't like his way of finding fault in everything (I'm not bashing him, it's just the way it is) would keep on disliking him. Things he says in 2011 would hardly change my opinion of him since more the same, and I can't expect him to change his ways.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby L34 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:41 pm

ian606 wrote:Tyre Pressures, an excuse:- I really don't understand the problem here. Stoner's team or him made the wrong decision simple as that. I would much rather he just said that and moved on, instead we get this incessant complaining. So he made the wrong choice, he had to actually race someone at the end and came of second/third best.... that's racing, surely. I admire the lad immensely but I'm afraid it's all becoming too much to listen to the post race interviews. Unless he wins, he complains and it's never his fault. Maybe he should have managed the tyres better, maybe he should have lowered them based upon his and his teams thoughts, maybe he should have followed a different race strategy.

He doesn't like getting beaten, good/great, that's a racer, perfect. However, if he's beaten, it's just a myriad of excuses and non of them are laid at his or his teams doorstep. Quite frankly, I'm tired of him. It hasn't been helped by his comments re Ducati and today I see via twitter that he has allegedly had a spat with Abraham (Dennis Noyes tweet) in the pits at the 1000cc testing. Maybe, if the grids get down to 1 rider then he'll be happy.

Having been a fan from his early days, I'm really disappointed. Unfortunately/fortunately, the more competitive the other bikes become will raise my interest week on week but I think it'll be with the mute button on, at least that way I can admire him from afar, so to speak.



Did you watch the post race interview?
He was specifically asked by Gavin Emmett, "What problems was he having out on the track?" (not exact wording)
Casey was simply answering a question, not whinging. Sure he was upset but which rider wouldnt be after being overtaken by 2 riders
and loosing the race win because of this problem.
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Re: 2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

Postby ian606 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:26 pm

Coyote, L34.

You see it the way you see it. I've defended the guy long enough on many a forum and generally stay away from the personal stuff. Expected from him, well yes and no. He has had plenty of time to adjust and despite my admiration of the lad as a racer, yes I am tired of his interviews. What I've said is very simple, you can take offence if you like but if you read it properly you can see that I'm stating facts and I'm not all that bothered if you take it to heart and feel you have to defend him. You'll argue, so is he, well yes he is, but it's not a matter of fact reply. Being the fastest guy out there doesn't always win a race, look at Simoncelli. In fact, read and listen to Simoncelli's interview and despite the same said problems (grip issues) he take's it on the chin and states Spies was clever and he could do nothing to respond.

I'm talking about taking it on the chin and moving on, nothing less nothing more. 5+ yrs at the top level I would have thought by now would have helped. More spats with riders in pit lane during testing etc says the opposite as does dissing your previous employer well after leaving and prior to a Mugello race, well that's not clever. That's a whole different can of worms and I don't want to start a Stoner this Stoner that debate. I dislike the "Rossi this, Rossi that" for similar reasons.

You love him regardless fine, I have no issues with that. I'll watch with the sound down and enjoy the riding, I won't get dragged into "did you actually listen to..." don't patronise me.

Sticking to the point, he had issues and was third.... THAT'S RACING.... MOVING ON.
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