Ducati goings on. Part 2.

[Albert]

With due deference to Japhrodisiac and his original thread --

-- I thought some of you guys might like to take a look through this - courtesy of this weeks MCN.

The first snippet is penned by Neil Spalding - the rest seems to be attributed to Matt Birt!

The pictures of the changes to Rossi's bike (11.1) are quite striking











The more you read the more you have to attribute what a strong ability Casey had to ride around problems!

[Kropotkin]

[b][i]The more you read the more you have to attribute what a strong ability Casey had to ride around problems!

I have often said that Casey Stoner was the worst thing that happened to Ducati. They thought they had a bike capable of winning races, whereas what they really had was a rider capable of riding around problems.

[chc-pr]

The more you read the more you have to attribute what a strong ability Casey had to ride around problems!

Sorry Albert, that is just your yello glasses talking. What did you expect Ducati to say? ANYONE being the least bit objective looking at the Ducati in the past few years could see that Stoner was doing something special as EVERYONE else was struggling. Thyey weren't even close! Its not as if it was either just the odd or also ran riders they tried either. Further, Ducati never tried to do ANYTHING about the things that Stoner complained about. Rossi has had more revisions and development work done in less than half a season than Stoner was offered in his entire Ducati career and the bike has clearly gone backwards under Rossi, who's fault is that? Stoner's?

If Stoner's success duped them, it was only because Ducati went looking to be Duped.

You think Ducati would EVER publicly admit that Rossi has been a huge disappointment or that they haven't a clue and have been going around in circles (which self evidently they have - even without Rossi admitting as much - which alone says just how confused they are - I would have bet almost anything that such an admission would NEVER be uttered)?

And since when has a factory ever seriously complained of having too good/fast a rider?

I KNOW you WANT to believe all this retro-rewriting of history, but the fault is not Stoner's.

[Tourn46]

Goes to show that the last 2 years, too many problems to ride around?

[Squidpuppet]

The pictures are a bit deceptive IMO. The one on the right has the front stand supporting the bike and the forks are fully UNloaded vs the one on the left where the forks ar at normal sag. I cant see the difference in the swingarm angle, but its tough to tell from the pics. Different camera angle.

Edit: Actually, the pic on the right looks to have LESS swingarm angle... Look at the Generali decal being more covered by the exhaust. Hmmm.

[JanBros]

looks like Capirossi read one off my posts on here

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1430&start=50 (halfway the page)

[Tourn46]

The more you read the more you have to attribute what a strong ability Casey had to ride around problems!

Sorry Albert, that is just your yello glasses talking. What did you expect Ducati to say? ANYONE being the least bit objective looking at the Ducati in the past few years could see that Stoner was doing something special as EVERYONE else was struggling. Thyey weren't even close! Its not as if it was either just the odd or also ran riders they tried either. Further, Ducati never tried to do ANYTHING about the things that Stoner complained about. Rossi has had more revisions and development work done in less than half a season than Stoner was offered in his entire Ducati career and the bike has clearly gone backwards under Rossi, who's fault is that? Stoner's?

If Stoner's success duped them, it was only because Ducati went looking to be Duped.

You think Ducati would EVER publicly admit that Rossi has been a huge disappointment or that they haven't a clue and have been going around in circles (which self evidently they have - even without Rossi admitting as much - which alone says just how confused they are - I would have bet almost anything that such an admission would NEVER be uttered)?

And since when has a factory ever seriously complained of having too good/fast a rider?

I KNOW you WANT to believe all this retro-rewriting of history, but the fault is not Stoner's.

What are you even trying to say? Albert is saying that Stoner was great at riding around problems... do you think this is wrong? You have a real bee in your bonnet and keep vanishing off on a tangent about how good Stoner is, blah blah... nobody really cares, nobody is discussing that and nobody is interested in a mundane over-discussed non existant topic.

People are simply saying Stoner was good at riding a duff bike.

[sir_nj]

The more you read the more you have to attribute what a strong ability Casey had to ride around problems!

You think Ducati would EVER publicly admit that Rossi has been a huge disappointment or that they haven't a clue and have been going around in circles (which self evidently they have - even without Rossi admitting as much - which alone says just how confused they are - I would have bet almost anything that such an admission would NEVER be uttered)?

And since when has a factory ever seriously complained of having too good/fast a rider?

I KNOW you WANT to believe all this retro-rewriting of history, but the fault is not Stoner's.

While I understand and agree with most of your post chc-pr I don't think anyone is blaming Stoner, in fact I think for some it is their way of saying sorry to have doubted you (Stoner). It is obvious that Rossi/Burgess have not managed to get the duc to work like a normal bike and it is also obvious that Rossi is not about to try and ride it like Stoner did so two big fails also noted. If you can accept the apology and also resist the temptation to rub VR and JBs nose into their 2011 score card, then you might find it's feels good to let it go.

Assuming you do you would have to admit that they might as well bin the 2011, the 2011.1 AND the 2012 right now and either go back to the trellis or start head hunting a whole team of aluminium frame developers very very soon.

[Squidpuppet]

[Assuming you do you would have to admit that they might as well bin the 2011, the 2011.1 AND the 2012 right now and either go back to the trellis or start head hunting a whole team of aluminium frame developers very very soon.

Its poaching season.

[Dayle88]

Heres a headline from the Valencia test at the end of this year: Furusawa joins Preziosi as joint Ducati project leader

If this happens I'm officially considering myself a true psycic

[SP_won]

Have to love the "quote" from Guareschi which does not actually appear in the text, pure quality.

[Cam D]

What are you even trying to say? Albert is saying that Stoner was great at riding around problems... do you think this is wrong? You have a real bee in your bonnet and keep vanishing off on a tangent about how good Stoner is, blah blah... nobody really cares, nobody is discussing that and nobody is interested in a mundane over-discussed non existant topic.

People are simply saying Stoner was good at riding a duff bike.

Actually you don't speak for all of us. I feel this is a thread about why Ducati are in the situation they are in, and what they are trying to do to get out of it. That means it's OK to discuss rider input and ability to develop machinery, and how much attention the factory pays to said rider. For instance Rossi has said the bike doesn't need to have massive alterations and Ducati said they would not make a bike just for Valentino. Both of them were wrong. Rossi is suggesting wholesale change, and so far the factory are throwing everything they have into the project.
I, like CHC-PR, feel that the two pieces of writing don't really tell me much at all, but are just a different slant/view on recent history. Nor do I think measurement can be taken from the two photographs. I also think there is room for a discussion on how much weight there is in rider contribution to the results of a certain bike. Stoner made it work vs nobody else could. Including the of professed ability of a rider/crew chief paring that could apparently turn goats piss into gasoline. It really makes you question the results from other riders in the past, and not just at Ducati. Maybe they weren't a true reflection of the riders ability, but the general public (and many race followers) did view it that way. Marco Melandri is a good case. We all know that Valentino is an extremely capable rider, and his results prove that, but this lack of improvement is damaging his legend to some degree. (Sorry... just re read that last sentence and it isn't what I meant. I meant even Rossi's rep can be tarnished, to some degree, by a bad bike.)

I personally don't have a problem with reading his post and I think it adds to the discussion. Didn't even feel that he's was a one eyed Stoner fan floggin a dead horse as you suggest, it's just a different point of view. CHC-PR feel free to add your thoughts mate, I like them added to the pot. I'm sure the moderators will let you know if you step out of line. JMO

[Cam D]

Have to love the "quote" from Guareschi which does not actually appear in the text, pure quality.

The before he risks his life he wants to improve the bike? Yeah I though that was interesting. If you go by the Montegi thread Valentino is paid to risk his life... pussy jks
Can't say I blame Valentino in the slightest.

[Zaphod]

Right-e-ooooo................

Stoner has the ability to ride around problems. No question...........

Ducati may or may not have been listening to his input. They will blame him, and he them..............pointless discussions. Just fills up topics with he said, she said bullshit.

Facts , and facts based on history as I understand it.......not to say there isn't more, probably contradictory "facts" that can be dredged up......... but, here's mine.

1. Ducati haven't been in the game long, by comparison to the Japanese, and a GP bike, is not a world superbike, so limited useful design information for them to draw upon. They drew up a brand new bike when they started, and until now, it has failed to get any better. This, I would think, is down to two factors............. All manufacturers have an " It's not the bike, it's the rider" mentality......and Stoner may or may not be as good at relating relevant information to his team as what Rossi is...moot point..... but definately, JB is the man in this game we call MotoGP when it comes to bike set-up/development.......regardless of which monkey he has twisting the throttle.

No offence intended to any riders.........

2. As proven, apart from Caparossi's results in the first year or two, the only person who could ride the thing was Stoner. 2007, not to start a useless, pointless argumet, the Ducati was 30-odd kph faster down any given straight than any other bike. The credit to Stoner is, he still had to ride it through the corners in order to be close enough to use the speed down the straight to overtake the person in front.Since then, wins have tailed off from 10 in 2007, to 6 the next, 4 the year after and 3 last year.

When the bike was the fastest, his efforts at riding around the problems were more greatly rewarded, since then, he's been busting his hump in an effort to do the same. No fault of his, other than the previously stated lack of a JB in his corner. Ducati are , as has been pointed out, hardly likely to turn around and admit the bikes crap. True to all manufacturers , " It must be something we can dial in or out of it........the bike, she's-a good !.....just some tweaks needed"......


3. Jb kept ( through the aid of various very talented throttle monkeys) the Honda factory tem spinning as a dominant force for a long time.............he then went to Yamaha and turned that around. Ducati are now in the position of having to admit they have some serious issues........are they going to look more stupid by not giving JB every resource or design modification he asks for ???.

To cut them some slack, they have ( like everyone else) limited testing of any new design, until the racing starts......which only then highlights whether you have moved in the right or wrong direction...........too late by then !

With the aid of JB's rule interpretation......" Hey fella's.....we can test whatever we like, just not a complete 2012 bike.......rolling chassis is just fine !) they are at least moving forward..........but they are trying to undo 3 to 5 years of bad work in one season. Not Bad work by Stoner.....so settle down......it's a team ........you can argue the nuances of whose more to blame till the cows come home........moot point.

4.
It has be pointed out time and time again by JB, Rossi,.....whoever, that the new thing works pretty well with the 1000cc engine, but it hates the 800 cc engine.......so they are stuck on that bit...........but, they keep working to refine what they have in an effort to focus on next year.

5..........now, love him or hate him.........What kind of a position is Rossi in.........go out and go nuts for a result, with the possibility of injury, to be one place higher in the already too far gone championship ?.... That'd be pretty stupid...or, do the required work for next year, and try to ignore the wailing moans of the irrational , in calls for your head/ you were only good on good bikes/he's past it....blah blah,blah.......and still have evryone calling you stupid.

Catch twenty-bloody-two.

I say he's doing the latter.......and what a long way to fall.

Imagine how they felt when, after having turned the Yamaha around, to rock up and find out....."ohhh.....this thing is really, really flawed.................."

The Yamaha was in a fairly ok place, in that with a few tweaks, it started going ok, and with some more work, is now top level again. Anyone who trhows a leg over it, can ride it well.

The Ducati.........Still a one trick pony............now they're trying to make it as rider freindly as the Japanese bikes.

Lot's to do, but lets cut 'em some slack and see what happens next year. Nobody else has done any good with the bike for the last 5 years or more development wise........so lets give these blokes about half that time eh ?........before we start criticising.



.........and, as I've said elsewhere..........They're moving on it faster than , lets say.......SUZUKI...........still got their head up their ar$e, and nobody's picking on them !!!!


PS..........I'm not a ducati fan,....or a blind one eyed Casey or Rossi fan.

I try to look at things objectively, and also read between the lines.

[SP_won]

Have to love the "quote" from Guareschi which does not actually appear in the text, pure quality.

The before he risks his life he wants to improve the bike? Yeah I though that was interesting. If you go by the Montegi thread Valentino is paid to risk his life... pussy jks
Can't say I blame Valentino in the slightest.

I was actually meaning the headline "Stoner no help", but I don't blame Rossi either at this stage of his career, he's obviously happier to put up with some humiliation than to risk his neck.

[Cam D]

Have to love the "quote" from Guareschi which does not actually appear in the text, pure quality.

The before he risks his life he wants to improve the bike? Yeah I though that was interesting. If you go by the Montegi thread Valentino is paid to risk his life... pussy jks
Can't say I blame Valentino in the slightest.

I was actually meaning the headline "Stoner no help", but I don't blame Rossi either at this stage of his career, he's obviously happier to put up with some humiliation than to risk his neck.

ah... I see what you meant now. I get used to some of the sites doing that and don't even notice it now. They try to snag the haters to get more comment/viewers.

[Oscar]

Firstly, can I say to anybody writing on this subject, that there is just no need nor frankly any excuse any more to include the schadenfreude-laden comments about Rossi; it denotes a level of triumphalism that as a Stoner supporter I find at the very least cringe-worthy and more often than not plain bloody embarrassing. The relative level of achievement of Stoner and Rossi on the Ducati has now, surely, established that Stoner was exceptional when measured against the best base-line in the business and it's just not necessary to continue to 'root out the pockets of resistance and eliminate them' as if some sort of war still exists - it's OVER, let's move on - please?

Guareschi's comments are really rather silly - especially in the light of J.B.s earlier comments. To say that 'Casey would go fast but not solve the problem' when it is damn obvious that Ducati were not prepared to try to 'solve the problem' but instead relied on Stoner to do exactly what Guareschi is saying he did - solve it with his right wrist - is simply a transfer of responsibility on a monumental scale. Frankly, if one looks at the bulk of Guareschi's comment this year there is a lack of consistency and a lack of credibility that would make the Murdoch family's appearance before the British Parliament into a paradigm of transparent honesty and disclosure. Ducati was not rectifying problems Stoner (and Hayden) were voicing and they're not rectifying problems Rossi and Hayden are voicing now. Sure, they're tinkering around the edges more now, but it is having about the same effect as Nero changing tunes amidst the flames..

The fact remains that Ducati have backed themselves into a particular technological corner with their stressed-engine concept and increasingly it appears it just isn't going to work to the limits required for a motoGp bike to be a winner - with ANY rider aboard. Increasingly, one has to accept the possibility that Ducati may have to either: a. admit that motoGp is too demanding for their 'production' concept to work and hope that the new superbike built to that concept will work sufficiently well that the gap is mitigated - or b. abandon motoGp as a negative factor to their reputation and put all their eggs in the WSBK basket for the continuance of the 'racing is in our DNA' line to be a positive.

Have to love the "quote" from Guareschi which does not actually appear in the text, pure quality.

Standard for MCN. Their anti-Stoner bias is so strong that they'd report Stoner saying 'I picked up a cold in Sachsenring and it's still with me at Laguna' under the headline 'Stoner spreads Disease World-wide'.

[Zaphod]

post of the year !


well said

[sir_nj]

Stoner has the ability to ride around problems. No question...........

Ducati may or may not have been listening to his input. They will blame him, and he them..............pointless discussions. Just fills up topics with he said, she said bullshit.

Actually Zaphod, I think this is probably one of the main sticking points for a lot of people (including myself to a certain degree) when it comes to analysing the current situation at Ducati. Casey left Ducati because they wouldn't make changes, Ducati didn't seem to want to change anything because a) they didn't see the need given that Casey could still win on it, and or b) they didn't have any faith in Casey's input. To Casey's credit and detriment he never chucked the towel in and settled for mid pack which a number of riders seem to have done over the years at Suzuki. I get a little hot under the collar when I read that Stoner couldn't develop the ducati, however, I will accept that statment but only when it is joined with "the same can be said of Rossi and Burgess".

It seems to me that in 2011 Ducati have very stubbornly insisted on band aid after band aid, while this may be attributed to the early statement by Rossi that they didn't need to make a frame I am deeply suspicious that his comment was only intended for the media and that behind closed doors the discussions were very much along the lines of building a conventional frame.

If this is correct then there are a number of problems for VR, JB and Ducat, firstly will they listen now and secondly do they have the resources to get it sorted for 2012 given they seem to be locked into the L motor?

[Sloth27]

The pictures are a bit deceptive IMO. The one on the right has the front stand supporting the bike and the forks are fully UNloaded vs the one on the left where the forks ar at normal sag. I cant see the difference in the swingarm angle, but its tough to tell from the pics. Different camera angle.

Edit: Actually, the pic on the right looks to have LESS swingarm angle... Look at the Generali decal being more covered by the exhaust. Hmmm.

I hope they didn't base the whole article on a comparison of those two photos. The front stand makes the forks droop down exagerating the angle, typical of MCN's standard of reporting though...

[Zaphod]

Stoner has the ability to ride around problems. No question...........

Ducati may or may not have been listening to his input. They will blame him, and he them..............pointless discussions. Just fills up topics with he said, she said bullshit.

Actually Zaphod, I think this is probably one of the main sticking points for a lot of people (including myself to a certain degree) when it comes to analysing the current situation at Ducati. Casey left Ducati because they wouldn't make changes, Ducati didn't seem to want to change anything because a) they didn't see the need given that Casey could still win on it, and or b) they didn't have any faith in Casey's input. To Casey's credit and detriment he never chucked the towel in and settled for mid pack which a number of riders seem to have done over the years at Suzuki. I get a little hot under the collar when I read that Stoner couldn't develop the ducati, however, I will accept that statment but only when it is joined with "the same can be said of Rossi and Burgess".

It seems to me that in 2011 Ducati have very stubbornly insisted on band aid after band aid, while this may be attributed to the early statement by Rossi that they didn't need to make a frame I am deeply suspicious that his comment was only intended for the media and that behind closed doors the discussions were very much along the lines of building a conventional frame.

If this is correct then there are a number of problems for VR, JB and Ducat, firstly will they listen now and secondly do they have the resources to get it sorted for 2012 given they seem to be locked into the L motor?

All valid points, although the reference I was making to Ducati blaming Stoner and vise-versa is that they would take this argument with who-ever was on the thing.........now that JB is involved, they have backed themselves into a corner.

All those titles, all the bikes he's developed, basket cases he's turned around..............would they dare be so stupid as to question his input ???

........they would really be the laughing stock then...........


I don't think Suzuki's pat employees settled for mid pack, maybe that's all they were capable of..........Stoner has a gift, and they didn't..........

Whether Rossi could do as well as Stoner on the bike is also wasted breath........... he's in a different place carreer wise.............9 titles vs 1..........Stoners career in front of him, Rossi somewhere closer to the end of his.

The really valid comparison between Suzuki and Ducati is..........Suzuki did squat after Schwantz..............KRj's efforts duly noted, although sensibly, he's not a Suzuki "man" like Schwantz, so got what he could and got the hell out !!!. Schwantz was Suzuki's Stoner............when he left, they fell back down to where they deserved to be, and have done nothing from then on.

At least the "Mario Bros" are trying to fix their super kart !!...................

[TwoStroke Institute]

Why not just get a M1 paint it red and put some Ducati stickers on it? Would save lots of drama.
I said this before but Ducati should starting saying NO to all the wholesale changes, they have a container load of fails already. If Valentino is the greatest rider ever should have no problems taming the Ducati, carbon frame or not. Stoner was forced to ride around problems, in doing that he found solutions.Which brings it neatly back to how this episode will go to the Ducati board room, do we stick to our DNA or we follow Rossi's wishes. My bet is the sales/marketing dept will win.
I thing the tapering off of Stoner's wins was more down to the massive improvements the Yamaha and Honda took as well as Lorenzo and Pedrosa's step up to the top level. Week in and week out Stoner was always at the pointy end.

[Rick650]

The current efforts of the MotoGP bikes must be a monumental strategic disaster for Ducati. The design solution seems to me to be a logical and innovative development of the traditional Ducati trellis frame/stressed motor concept. However if they can't produce user friendly and competitive MotoGP machines there is a major hole in Ducati's marketing and future direction.
If their MotoGP programme doesn't enhance the marketing of their street bikes and provide an endorsement of the differentiated Ducati design direction why be involved?
Has there ever been any reports on the GP11 or 11.1 being tested with tyres other than the control tyres to see if the front end feel issues are related to the Bridgestones?

[redmike34]

Why not just get a M1 paint it red and put some Ducati stickers on it? Would save lots of drama.
I said this before but Ducati should starting saying NO to all the wholesale changes, they have a container load of fails already. If Valentino is the greatest rider ever should have no problems taming the Ducati, carbon frame or not. Stoner was forced to ride around problems, in doing that he found solutions.Which brings it neatly back to how this episode will go to the Ducati board room, do we stick to our DNA or we follow Rossi's wishes. My bet is the sales/marketing dept will win.
I thing the tapering off of Stoner's wins was more down to the massive improvements the Yamaha and Honda took as well as Lorenzo and Pedrosa's step up to the top level. Week in and week out Stoner was always at the pointy end.

So by that train of thought, Stoner should never have asked Ducati to change the bike for him? And Ducati should stick with their DNA, even if their DNA shows very clear signs of leading to terminal cancer?

Stoner was always at the pointy end in practice and qualifying. He was more often in the gravel trap than parc ferme after a race last year. So yeah, he found some solutions... but they weren't universal or ubiquitous.

Bottom line is, Ducati need to succeed. There's really only two ways that can happen. They can either change their bike into whatever it needs to be in order to be successful, or they can find a rider who can make it successful as it more-or-less is. Personally, I think it's pretty likely that there's only one dude on earth who has the ability to make the Duck successful as it is... and he ain't coming back. So I think the first option is what they're stuck with, whether they like it or not. Unless they choose option three, which is eff off GP and keep racing SBK. You be the judge...

[Oscar]

Stoner was always at the pointy end in practice and qualifying. He was more often in the gravel trap than parc ferme after a race last year.

More urban myth there. Stoner was in parc ferme 9 times last year: 3 wins, two seconds, four thirds. He DNF'd 5 times.

I get the thrust of what you are saying and understand that you aren't specifically attacking Stoner - indeed you've praised him and I recognise that - but the toss-away line perpetuates the idea that the GP 10 with Stoner aboard was virtually useless. That is a gross oversimplification of the true situation.