Ducati goings on. Part 2.

[eddahenry]

mmmm May be a aluminium trellis frame wrapped in Carbon for strength
might work but i aint no frame builder

[Albert]

mmmm May be a aluminium trellis frame wrapped in Carbon for strength
might work but i aint no frame builder

Not too sure about that EH. It didn't work too well when they built carbon shrouds around Casey's forks a couple of years back. I think they turned out to be too rigid!

[eddahenry]

Yeh i tought as much but i just carnt see the Italians going down the same path as the Japanese
there whole marketing strategy has always been to come across as something completely different

[ducati1098s]

I'm very surprised at how blind, or delusionnal, or stubborn Ducati is in this matter. Surely they have access to more datas that we will ever have: how is it that they don't seem to realize it's all very, very wrong?

So, i'd like to take the situation from another angle. Theirs.

They have one of the best mechanic team in the world with a wise and been-there-done-that engineer at the top.
They have one of the best rider in the world, and supposely an amazing source of datas for engineers and who showed previously he can turn bikes around in a few months.
They have in Bologna one of the best racing development team there is, with hundreds of victories in several disciplines, national or international, in the last 25 years.
They have the ressources to do whatever they fell like for their MotoGP team.

What are we missing ? What might they know or encounter to make them keep on going at the same wall ?
Do they know something about CF we don't ? Have they seen something with the airbox/minimal frame problem that make they keep going ?
Were the datas from the GP12 sooooo good that they need to perservere there and make these embarrassing sunday results with its GP11.1 version ?

I personally don't buy the angle that says they need to keep going in the same directions for marketing reasons. They are very smart at selling things to the Ducatisti and if it wins, it wins, whatever the format of the frame or the engine (bar the engine being a four inline...).

So, do they have a plan behind it all or there's no one to lead Ducati Corse no more ?

Pride?

[jihem]

Pride?

When you loose so much live, on TV ?
When your sponsors call you up on monday morning asking why the rider you paid millions for was starting from the last row ?

I suspect there must be so many people telling them to wake up that they are wide awake, but mysteriously running behind things we don't know about, maybe ?

[JanBros]

I'm very surprised ...
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So, do they have a plan behind it all or there's no one to lead Ducati Corse no more ?

how long do you think it takes to develop a good frame (aluminium or not) ? to answer that one, maybe you can ask Honda why it took them more then 3 years to be on par with yamaha (AND they have the same experience with alloy frames, unlike ducati).

in the beginning, Burgess said there is nothing wrong with the bike, why should Ducati have abandonned it ?
why did they try out the GP11.1 ? because it was already designed and developped on paper/CAD.

So what do you expect from them ? that they'll show up with an aluminium twin spar for the next GP in 3 weeks ? Do you have any idea what that would mean ? To do that, they'd have to start with a plain white piece of paper, because EVERYTHING (appart from wheels/front forkes) on their current bike is designed arround the framlesness off it. Even the engine would need a complete rebuild - since no more being a stressed member, it would be too heavy. Even IF they would pull it off, that bike would be about 10 seconds off the paise rather than 1 - no testing remember, and assuming they would get it right from the first time ... is like saying Elias will be WC this year

there just is no other option for the remaining off the season, then to stick with what they've got

[TwoStroke Institute]

What they need is the Peter Brock Energy Polariser.
The bike is just out of harmony with the cosmic forces of the universe man.

replace the engine with a 4 cyl Commodore engine?

[eddahenry]

What they need is the Peter Brock Energy Polariser.
The bike is just out of harmony with the cosmic forces of the universe man.

replace the engine with a 4 cyl Commodore engine?

yep the camira 1.6 should do just fine

[ieism]

I would like to hear some opinions from a framebuilders perspective. Is there a magazine or website that interviewed somebody with real knowledge of motorcycle design on the flaws of this Ducati?
Right now all I'm hearing is the carbon/frameless concept will never work, but it's mostly armchair experts...

[deckard]

Yamaha spent a lot of effort moving the motor mount points away from the headstock in order to give the frame a longer span to flex across. If you look at the GP11.x, the motor mount points are very close to the headstock, bucking conventional wisdom. The frame also incorporates a box element for the airbox, so the design can't concentrate solely on the flex characteristics as it must also take into account the engine induction requirements.

I remember reading in 2006 that Team KR went through a ridiculous number of alloy frames looking for the right solution; yes, lowly Team KR. When you're in this position, you need to turn around frames quickly in order to try new solutions, and carbon fiber just does not seem to fit this bill.

Ducati has taken a big leap with this design, and they had to have foreseen some big advantages to offset the inevitable development requirements. But what are the advantages? Is there an award for best packaging ? Do they gain an advantage in aerodynamics as a result of the packaging? Is their bike under the minimum weight? Just being different for the sake of being different doesn't fly when the GOAT is consistently finishing 20-30 seconds behind the winner.

[chc-pr]

I was curious to what the championship table would look like if Stoner was not in it - nothing else different, just Stoner removed - ie, if was to have been disqualified every round and the positions redone and points re-awarded. Something really unexpected turned up! Rossi would be third in the table after Laguna Seca.

Now, would the concensus STILL be the same if Rossi was placed 3rd instead of 5th in the chapionship so far? I'm guessing not. I suspect there would be a general reinforcement of the idea that Rossi is taking Ducati in the right direction. I happen to think the problem is that Rossi is leading Ducati away from its core strengths and so it is going backwards for that reason (before it learns new strengths and can go forward) rather than the inherent difficulties the 'no-frame' approach gives (there are real advantages in it too) and that the bigger problem is the limitations of the engine shape.

For everyone's reference, here is the summary table I produced. Sorry about not using the formatting table - I did try but can't see how to get it to work. If anyone could do that for me (and tell me for future ref how to do it) I'd be grateful.

Rider Actual Points Modded Points Actual Rank Modded Rank
Stoner 193 0 1 #N/A
Lorenzo 173 192 2 1
Dovisioso 143 171 3 2
Rossi 108 124 5 3
Pedrosa 110 119 4 4
Spies 98 112 6 5
Hayden 94 106 7 6
Edwards 67 78 8 7
Aoyama 63 71 9 8
Simoncelli 60 69 10 9
Barbera 56 64 11 10
Abraham 46 53 12 11
Elias 40 47 13 12
Bautista 39 47 14 12
Crutchlow 34 39 15 14
Capirossi 27 31 16 15
dePuniet 16 20 17 16
Hopkins 6 6 18 17
Akiyoshi 3 4 19 18
Guintoli 1 1 20 19

[chc-pr]

Do they gain an advantage in aerodynamics as a result of the packaging? Is their bike under the minimum weight? Just being different for the sake of being different doesn't fly when the GOAT is consistently finishing 20-30 seconds behind the winner.

There are a number of significant advantages for Ducati - not least of which is a much cleaner airflow into the engine and cooling system. As they have often struggled with cooling this is important. Also there are significant weight advantages too. Packaging IS important - which is why I don't understand why they insist on sticking with a 90 degree L design as this limits options itself.

[redmike34]

Now, would the concensus STILL be the same if Rossi was placed 3rd instead of 5th in the chapionship so far? I'm guessing not.

I'd guess that it would be. Your situational third in championship is a mirage caused by Pedrosa's injury--even in your Stoner-less scenario Dani would have more points than Vale very soon. He'd also only have one more podium finish--he'd have a third at Assen to go with his now-second in France. Not enough of an improvement IMO.

[chc-pr]

Now, would the concensus STILL be the same if Rossi was placed 3rd instead of 5th in the chapionship so far? I'm guessing not.

I'd guess that it would be. Your situational third in championship is a mirage caused by Pedrosa's injury--even in your Stoner-less scenario Dani would have more points than Vale very soon. He'd also only have one more podium finish--he'd have a third at Assen to go with his now-second in France. Not enough of an improvement IMO.

All of which is true, but it does look very different and if you accept that you sometimes need to go backwards to go forwards then it is not looking half so bleak and would give them some more breathing space. He would also have two fourths and a string of 5ths which is significantly improved I reckon (and one of those 5ths would have probably been better because he wouldn't have taken out Stoner in Jerez (as he may not have felt the need to 'show him' so may not have crashed and podiumed? - just a thought).

What I was actually looking for was to see if the 'Honda Domination' perception was still the case without Stoner in the mix. That now looks
Yam, Honda, Duc, Honda, Yam, Duc, Yam, Honda
which looks a lot more 'even' and not at all Honda domination like the current position of
Honda, Yam, Honda, Honda, Duc, Yam, Duc, Yam, Honda

[Kropotkin]

What I was actually looking for was to see if the 'Honda Domination' perception was still the case without Stoner in the mix. That now looks
Yam, Honda, Duc, Honda, Yam, Duc, Yam, Honda
which looks a lot more 'even' and not at all Honda domination like the current position of
Honda, Yam, Honda, Honda, Duc, Yam, Duc, Yam, Honda

It's an interesting exercise, but again, I think Pedrosa being torpedoed by Sic distorts the picture. If Simoncelli had made a clean pass, Pedrosa would have had 3 more races and 70+ more points (he lost 4 race finishes because of that incident), putting a completely different spin again on the championship.

However, I think Rossi qualifying in 15th instead of 16th at the Sachsenring would still have all of the alarm bells ringing. The overwhelming sense in Germany after that QP was one of sheer shock. People couldn't believe it.

So things might look a little better on paper, but the sense would still be the same, i.e. how the hell did this happen?

[RedJet]

Pride?

When you loose so much live, on TV ?
When your sponsors call you up on monday morning asking why the rider you paid millions for was starting from the last row ?

I suspect there must be so many people telling them to wake up that they are wide awake, but mysteriously running behind things we don't know about, maybe ?

Perhaps they are more sleepwalking than actually "awake".
.

[chc-pr]

What I was actually looking for was to see if the 'Honda Domination' perception was still the case without Stoner in the mix. That now looks
Yam, Honda, Duc, Honda, Yam, Duc, Yam, Honda
which looks a lot more 'even' and not at all Honda domination like the current position of
Honda, Yam, Honda, Honda, Duc, Yam, Duc, Yam, Honda

It's an interesting exercise, but again, I think Pedrosa being torpedoed by Sic distorts the picture. If Simoncelli had made a clean pass, Pedrosa would have had 3 more races and 70+ more points (he lost 4 race finishes because of that incident), putting a completely different spin again on the championship.

However, I think Rossi qualifying in 15th instead of 16th at the Sachsenring would still have all of the alarm bells ringing. The overwhelming sense in Germany after that QP was one of sheer shock. People couldn't believe it.

So things might look a little better on paper, but the sense would still be the same, i.e. how the hell did this happen?

Again valid points - but a single hugely shocking result in qualifying (and he has done that before) should not be taken to completely overshadow everything either - especially as he did race (relatively) well and it was a meeting without Burgess. If anything, that result says as much about Burgess importance to Rossi's career as the problems at Ducati - it is easy to conflate the two I am sure you would agree.

The point about Pedrosa is more problematic - but again it is not an unusual situation for him. His Premier class career has been plagued by it. I was not trying to do much about the what-ifs and maybes. I was simply trying to assess how much of the "Stoner's clearly got the best bike again he is such a lucky rider etc" line (that gets so regularly trotted out elsewhere lest anyone gets the wrong idea) stands up when he is removed. I really don't want to go further with this in this thread as it is off topic, but I felt the shock of Rossi being third in this scenario was relevant for disection as I think it does question at least SOME of the Ducati is crap perception. Not all, but some and suggests that the framless design is NOT a hopeless case. Maybe its because of my pet hypothesis that Rossi is denuding Ducati of its strengths so far without generating any new ones rather than any impossibility of the design.

[deckard]

There are a number of significant advantages for Ducati - not least of which is a much cleaner airflow into the engine and cooling system. As they have often struggled with cooling this is important. Also there are significant weight advantages too.

That reminds me, when Yamaha started using the long front engine mount, it was disrupting airflow through the radiator and causing cooling problems. But Yamaha gave packaging a back seat in order to achieve proper frame flex and front end feel. Kind of the opposite of what Ducati is doing, as they seem to be putting packaging first. I guess it depends where the priorities are, but at this level of racing, front end feel has to be close to the top of the list..

Packaging IS important - which is why I don't understand why they insist on sticking with a 90 degree L design as this limits options itself.

It makes no sense to me either. Ostensibly it's a tie-in to their streetbike's 90 degree L-twin, but the GP bike is an L-four. I don't think their street customers really give a crap anyway, I know I don't.

[RatsMC]

I would like to hear some opinions from a framebuilders perspective. Is there a magazine or website that interviewed somebody with real knowledge of motorcycle design on the flaws of this Ducati?
Right now all I'm hearing is the carbon/frameless concept will never work, but it's mostly armchair experts...

You are really only going to get armchair experts on this. There are only a small handful of people in the world that really understand this stuff in detail and only the small number of those who work at Ducati have any expertise with CF. So, until Preziosi comes here to answer our questions, we are all just guessing.

[Kropotkin]

I was not trying to do much about the what-ifs and maybes. I was simply trying to assess how much of the "Stoner's clearly got the best bike again he is such a lucky rider etc" line (that gets so regularly trotted out elsewhere lest anyone gets the wrong idea) stands up when he is removed. I really don't want to go further with this in this thread as it is off topic, but I felt the shock of Rossi being third in this scenario was relevant for disection as I think it does question at least SOME of the Ducati is crap perception. Not all, but some and suggests that the framless design is NOT a hopeless case. Maybe its because of my pet hypothesis that Rossi is denuding Ducati of its strengths so far without generating any new ones rather than any impossibility of the design.

I understand what you are trying to say, and agree with the gist of it (if for different reasons). I think Rossi's position in the championship is a little bogus, though. Watching the races, none of his performances have been stellar. Just watching him on the bike is painful, he does not look like Valentino Rossi, but rather some stiff and tentative kid who has stolen Rossi's leathers and walked into his garage without anyone realizing. So the shock of Rossi being 3rd (in your scenario) is more than masked by the shock of Rossi riding like a mortal.

But you are completely right about the direction. As I've said several times before, the problem isn't the subframe, it's that stupid L. It prevents them from putting any weight onto the front wheel, and forces them into bizarre experiments such as the "Paul Jr" bike Rossi rode at Laguna (someone should point out that the Teutuls live in Orange County, New York, not Orange Country, California). The carbon subframe could be a benefit if they had a better engine layout.

[chc-pr]

I was not trying to do much about the what-ifs and maybes. I was simply trying to assess how much of the "Stoner's clearly got the best bike again he is such a lucky rider etc" line (that gets so regularly trotted out elsewhere lest anyone gets the wrong idea) stands up when he is removed. I really don't want to go further with this in this thread as it is off topic, but I felt the shock of Rossi being third in this scenario was relevant for disection as I think it does question at least SOME of the Ducati is crap perception. Not all, but some and suggests that the framless design is NOT a hopeless case. Maybe its because of my pet hypothesis that Rossi is denuding Ducati of its strengths so far without generating any new ones rather than any impossibility of the design.

I think Rossi's position in the championship is a little bogus, though. Watching the races, none of his performances have been stellar. Just watching him on the bike is painful, he does not look like Valentino Rossi, but rather some stiff and tentative kid who has stolen Rossi's leathers and walked into his garage without anyone realizing. So the shock of Rossi being 3rd (in your scenario) is more than masked by the shock of Rossi riding like a mortal.

It would be hard to disagree with much of that - under either scenario

[Squidpuppet]

Now, would the concensus STILL be the same if Rossi was placed 3rd instead of 5th in the chapionship so far? I'm guessing not.

I'd guess that it would be. Your situational third in championship is a mirage caused by Pedrosa's injury--even in your Stoner-less scenario Dani would have more points than Vale very soon. He'd also only have one more podium finish--he'd have a third at Assen to go with his now-second in France. Not enough of an improvement IMO.

And he'd still be finishing 20-30 seconds behind the winners and slower than the Ducatis of years gone bye. Yes, mirage.

[Tormo4ever]

I think the situation is disaterous for ducati, never mind Vale being not so badly placed in the points table. They finished, him and Nicky, who is no slouch at laguna, 30 secs behind the leaders. They re not even able to fight with the second group (spies, dovi, maybe simo).

[Albert]

I think the situation is disaterous for ducati, never mind Vale being not so badly placed in the points table. They finished, him and Nicky, who is no slouch at laguna, 30 secs behind the leaders. They re not even able to fight with the second group (spies, dovi, maybe simo).

Colin Edwards is no slouch round Laguna Seca either. He showed Vale the way home in 2005 when they were both on Yamaha's. He came in behind Rossi and Hayden.

Seems he couldn't even fight with the third group. Maybe it's worse at Tech3 than Ducati.

Back to topic - there was something here a while ago regarding Carbon but I think it was on the locked thread.

[Albert]

Back to topic - there was something here a while ago regarding Carbon but I think it was on the locked thread.

Can't find it -- but in true Blue Peter tradition -- here's some I prepared earlier!

From a copy of MCN several weeks ago ---