Ducati goings on. Part 2.

[Gustav O]

Rossi himself squashed this on Twitter. Made up stuff, again.

[Cam D]

This is an interesting interview with Preziosi - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99447
I thought this seemed like he chose his words carefully.

Rossi started using team-mate Hayden's set-up from the Jerez race, which Preziosi felt was both a sign of Rossi's willingness to try different solutions, and helpful for the team's development.

"The fact that he's gone back with the set-up seems to me like a sign of open-mindedness," Preziosi said. "Valentino, since the first Sepang test, has had a series of tools that, together with his team - which is fully autonomous on the track - he steered in a certain direction.

"But he also had this 'basic' set-up solution, which is anyway the same we had at the beginning of last year. Now, with both riders on similar choices, we can try to share the workload among them."

A bit more about the new motor - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99446

[TwoStroke Institute]

Share the work or pull in opposite directions?

[dmelb]

Carlo Pernat doesn't belive Rossi will win a Championship at Ducati. He belives Ducati should get Casey Stoner to return, offering him a boatload of money. Perhaps it wouldn't be possible for any number of reasons, but who else can they go for? Everyone is afraid to ride the Ducati...

I guess the real question is - why in the world would Stoner want to go back to Ducati? It sounds very much like doom and gloom at Ducati as Rossi is going nowhere.
http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/20120 ... z1uYi4uFrE

[Cappra]

Carlo Pernat doesn't belive Rossi will win a Championship at Ducati. He belives Ducati should get Casey Stoner to return, offering him a boatload of money. Perhaps it wouldn't be possible for any number of reasons, but who else can they go for? Everyone is afraid to ride the Ducati...

I guess the real question is - why in the world would Stoner want to go back to Ducati? It sounds very much like doom and gloom at Ducati as Rossi is going nowhere.
http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/20120 ... z1uYi4uFrE

A page ago I started the rumour ...........

If Rossi does retire this season then it will be a sad end to an illustrious career and will ensure that until the Ducati becomes a genuinely neutral (ie not idiosynchratic) race winning bike, no top rider will touch it with a barge pole

When Rossi retires leaving a shattered Ducati team and reputation behind, Ducati, Marlboro, Dorna, the Italian Govt and every track owner in the world will chip in to pay Casey $30mil p.a. to ride the Duke . (Spread the rumour ).

I was been cheeky and just a little facetious - it's good to see the rumour has gained traction .

I think it highly improbable. The serious, professional, focused and winning personality of Stoner is a good fit for the serious, professional, focused and winning team that is Honda. I think Honda will be very reluctant to let Stoner go and will find and pay Big Money to keep the winning happening. It probably won't be a good thing for MotoGP but I can see an era of dominance a la Doohan/Honda.

Stoner might be lured back to win with Ducati to completely smash Rossi's reputation. But I doubt that. Although I don't doubt Stoner is enjoying Rossi's discomfort after a few acrimonious 'psych out' war of words over the past 18 months, I don't think it is so deeply personal that this would motivate Stoner.

Stoner might be lured back to Ducati if he feels that he is getting 'stale' at Honda and needs a challenge. But I doubt that. If Stoner gets stale I think he would more likely follow the old maxim and 'quit while you're ahead' - retire.

Stoner might be lured back to Ducati using a 'Save Ducati' or 'Save MotoGP' appeal. But I doubt that. Although it might have its appeal I think Stoner is too hard nosed for that to be a winning ploy.

Or a combination of all of the above with a boat load of money to sweeten the deal. I wasn't been completely factious when I said "....Ducati, Marlboro, Dorna, the Italian Govt and every track owner in the world will chip in to pay Casey..."'. These players are all stakeholder who would benefit from the interest generated by a Stoner return to Ducati - especially a winning return of Stoner to Ducati.

So it could happen, but I doubt it; very much doubt it. If I was to bet I would say Stoner will stay with Honda until he retires.

[Nachlauf]

Imho they should rather spend the money to get the top engineers from Honda or Yamaha and give them the resources to build a better bike. Hiring Casey is not a guarantee they'll win races or improve their bike to make it as good as the Honda/Yamaha. Even if Casey would win for them, he'll leave in a few years and then they'll have the same problem again.

[Grahluk]

Imho they should rather spend the money to get the top engineers from Honda or Yamaha and give them the resources to build a better bike.

That's where the smart money would be. Ducati's problem isn't their riders, it's that whoever rides their bike does worse on it than they would otherwise elsewhere to greater or lesser extents. If they need to poach anyone from the competition it's those that can catch them up on the engineering side. Casey riding for Ducati again or that he would be a title threat on it is not even speculation,it's fantasy fit for print. the guy did well but it wasn't like he was exactly enjoying the experience. I don't have a window into his thinking regarding Rossi but it doesn't seem like some WWE level soap opera is what motivates him in life. Apart from the satisfaction he's getting riding and winning in Repsol colors and the odd comment in Rossi's direction is enough. I think Casey's focusing on his own story.

[Nachlauf]

Indeed. They lucked out big time with Casey (and to some extend Bridgestone) 5 years ago. But if they want to get to the front on their own merit they need to fix their equipment. After 07 every year showed they have issues achieving this. They hired several former champions (and approached Jorge). It had no noticeable positive effect on their performance. It's about time to change the pattern and go for better engineers. It's a tough decision, but the current ones don't seem to cut it really.

[Cam D]

Indeed. They lucked out big time with Casey (and to some extend Bridgestone) 5 years ago. But if they want to get to the front on their own merit they need to fix their equipment. After 07 every year showed they have issues achieving this. They hired several former champions (and approached Jorge). It had no noticeable positive effect on their performance. It's about time to change the pattern and go for better engineers. It's a tough decision, but the current ones don't seem to cut it really.

I said last year that there is an Engineer that was quite successful with Yamaha and is really good mates with Vale... I was amazed they hadn't tried to poach him.

[Oscar]

Over on Soup there is a report that both Ducati GP 800cc bikes offered for sale were sold to people eager for a trinket to occupy space in their garage. The GP '10 with a win, three poles and three other podiums to its credit fetched more (though not a whole lot more) than the GP '11 with only one podium. It would seem that the rider association was less important than the results, which may surprise some people - though perhaps the winglets counted for the extra interest (more c/f for your money, n'est ce pas?). Must be a comfortable life for those with a lazy 170-odd k Euro to spare....

(edit - got my US$ and Euro muddled..)

[motogpmd]

Or a combination of all of the above with a boat load of money to sweeten the deal. I wasn't been completely factious when I said "....Ducati, Marlboro, Dorna, the Italian Govt and every track owner in the world will chip in to pay Casey..."'. These players are all stakeholder who would benefit from the interest generated by a Stoner return to Ducati - especially a winning return of Stoner to Ducati.
So it could happen, but I doubt it; very much doubt it. If I was to bet I would say Stoner will stay with Honda until he retires.

Stoner had some very harsh criticism of Ducati's senior management, so it's hard to see him ever going back there. In the unlikely event that Stoner does tire of Honda the logical place for him to go is Yamaha, to try to add a third manufacturer to his list of championships. It is clear from comments by Lin Jarvis that they would welcome him with open arms.

[drayon]

Ducati are wasting too much time. They should build another swing arm, an underslung aluminium one to try to sort out the understeer. The understeer started in 2010 when they settled on the carbon monocoque frame and carbon swing arm and they added the big bang. Stoner said the bike was pushing wide when accelerating out of the turns. The big bang was introduced to rectify the traction problem (lack of) while they were running the screamer, it did just that and started pushing the front. They never tried an Aluminium swing arm on the big bang (AFAIK) because they'd already decided on the carbon swing arm. So they haven't either isolated the big bang or the carbon swing arm isolated of the under steer.

Anyway the other major development direction that seems wrong is their insistence in sticking with that big bang and patching it up with electronics to make it smoother.
This engine in hopelessly outclassed by Honda's screamer in acceleration. Maybe it's the way Rossi is riding the bike that is the problem. Listening to his onboard camera, the acceleration is both latent and lethargic, looking at the video the bike is also latent and lethargic out of the turns. Compare Danis' 2009 RC21V screamer and Stoners' 2009 screamer Ducati and watch the Ducati match the Honda and often pull out harder. It'd be safe (I hope) to say the 2009 RC21V engine isn't much different in this respect to the RC21V of 2011. Stoner commented at his first test in Valencia the RC21V power delivery was "smooth as glass". So Ducati can't build a screamer engine and configure electronics to be also "smooth as glass"? Meh

[corinthian]

Anyway the other major development direction that seems wrong is their insistence in sticking with that big bang and patching it up with electronics to make it smoother.
This engine in hopelessly outclassed by Honda's screamer in acceleration

I think I mentioned on this forum that when I was at the Jerez tests the amount of traction control Hayden's duc had, at least through the sections of track I visited, was unbelievable. The bike sounded terrible out of the corners but phenomenal mid- and late-straight. Dennis Noyes tweeted the following yesterday:

“If you get a chance, look at the instance in Jerez when Dani´s Honda blasted past Nicky´s Duc. Ducati has power but can´t get it down.”
“Rossi sayst the power of the Duc cannot be managed electronically...meaning the first hit is too hard.He said this of 800 after first test.”

[Oscar]

“If you get a chance, look at the instance in Jerez when Dani´s Honda blasted past Nicky´s Duc. Ducati has power but can´t get it down.”
“Rossi says the power of the Duc cannot be managed electronically...meaning the first hit is too hard.He said this of 800 after first test.”

So, perhaps we can accept the statements of most all of the Ducati riders that have seen Stoner's data (from, IIRC, Guintoli onwards) that his throttle control is actually superior to the best that Ducati have managed to do with the electronics? (yes, that isn't actually what they have said, just that Stoner was on the power earlier by a very noticeable margin to any other Ducati rider, but I think it is a fair extrapolation). I cannot remember who first concluded that Stoner was able to 'surf the t/c', effectively confounding it by manipulating his throttle work to be able to feed the power in with minimal interruption by the t/c - was it perhaps Spalding?

I'm going to indulge in a little obnoxious schadenfreude here, because this particular point has been thrown in Stoner's face by so many, many armchair experts: Rossi branded Stoner and Pedrosa, in particular, as 'the playstation generation' of racers. It was taken by so very many as a definitive condemnation of their ability as riders. Now we have Noyes stating that Rossi could not manage the engine characteristics of the Ducati from his first ride - with the full availability of the then current electronics - that Stoner had taken to three wins and a second in the previous five races of that bike.

The depth of the re-evaluation of what Stoner provided to Ducati in terms of results for the package that he was riding continues. I believe it was our good Dr. K. who first said that 'Stoner was the worst thing that ever happened to Ducati in terms of them developing their bike' - or something very similar. One can certainly see del Torchio walking past the list of motoGp successes Ducati has had and muttering to himself: 'Stoner, you utter, utter bastard'. The WC must be a really bitter blow.

[corinthian]

One positive effect Stoner has had on Ducati in the last five years is that he has guaranteed their presence in the paddock during this difficult time. If the world had judged the bike by Melandri's or even Hayden's results, and I expect other riders would have come and gone, I wonder how keen Marlboro would have been to continue, or Rossi to hop on a red bike. As it stands Ducati sales are way up, Hayden has a GP ride, and the biodiversity of the motosystem is if not maintained, at least stabilised (in light of the loss of Kawasaki and Suzuki). But things might not have turned out that way had Stoner gone to another garage for his first factory ride. Just idle speculation on my part, of course.

Re Stoner being able to get on the throttle earlier, I think the current problem is that with the 2012 bike you just can't get on it hard when it's leaned over, either early or late. Hayden didn't seem to be getting on the gas later than the others but the TC was just anihilating his acceleration, cutting ignition so often and he was practically upright by the time the bike smoothed out. I wish I'd captured some video instead of just stills.

Most of the Rossi quotes I've read refer to his problems on corner entry and mid-corner, what I found interesting about Dennis Noyes' VR comment was that it implys that the main strength of the Duc, its power, is currently working against it where the rider needs it most.

[Cappra]

I believe it was our good Dr. K. who first said that 'Stoner was the worst thing that ever happened to Ducati in terms of them developing their bike' - or something very similar.

Pithy, but I'm sure it was meant to be sage and factious as well. I think they good Dr was saying that Stoner's success blindsided Ducati Corse to the failings and limitations of the Duke. Pithy but not accurate. A simply reflection on the performance of Capparossi, Milandri and Hayden, all proven world class riders, would have lead to a different conclusion.

Eighteen months ago Stoner came out and said the Duke was at the limit of it's development and Ducati needed to completely rethink the design. If Stoner was saying that in the press you can assume he was saying it behind closed doors 6 months or more beforehand.

So pithy, humourous and nice attempt to shift the blame - but no cupie doll for the good Doctor .

[Cappra]

In the unlikely event that Stoner does tire of Honda the logical place for him to go is Yamaha, to try to add a third manufacturer to his list of championships. It is clear from comments by Lin Jarvis that they would welcome him with open arms.

Lin Jarvis, you, me and half of the world's MotoGP fans would love to see it (Jorge, Spries and Crutchlow probably not ).

[Oscar]

One positive effect Stoner has had on Ducati in the last five years is that he has guaranteed their presence in the paddock .... the biodiversity of the motosystem is if not maintained, at least stabilised (in light of the loss of Kawasaki and Suzuki).

Whoa Nellie! That is very close to being tantamount to saying Stoner has been good for the racing - and that's a terribly vexed issue..

I think we've thrashed this whole thing of Ducati rather doggedly pursuing the wrong qualities for the machine over a considerable period of time - basically since the GP '07 - to the point where it is begging for mercy. If Ducati has now managed to tame the erratic front end, then at least they have progressed on one of the three main components of bike performance: the front end, the rear end and the bit in the middle. One out of three isn't really great progress, but at least it is some progress

I think we can safely (well, fairly safely) assume that Rossi's presence is as effective a guarantee of Ducati continuing to put bikes on the grid as the results they were previously achieving. I think we have to hope that Rossi decides to continue racing with Ducati beyond this year, though, or the alternative scenario might just come to fruition.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

Moderator Ruling:
A note to japhrodisiac and the rest of you rocket scientists who tried to turn this into an umbrella girl thread...

Don't do that again!

For now, I've simply deleted all the offending posts and there's nothing personal (yet).
While that is a picture that could easily keep me up all night, this isn't the place (meaning: this Forum, and especially this topic!) for that kind of banter. While it may be witty, it isn't "Intelligent Debate About Motorcycle Racing", or even close. There are other places for that.
Carry on...

[Desmo44]

One can certainly see del Torchio walking past the list of motoGp successes Ducati has had and muttering to himself: 'Stoner, you utter, utter bastard'. The WC must be a really bitter blow.

And how! When I spoke with del Torchio at Indy in 2010, my impression was that they only looked forward to Rossi's arrival and Stoner's departure from a PR and personality perspective. I don't think they ever gave a thought to the performance side, unconsciously assuming Rossi would ride as well or better than Stoner. And they would live happily ever after...

[Hanuman]

I think we've thrashed this whole thing of Ducati rather doggedly pursuing the wrong qualities for the machine over a considerable period of time - basically since the GP '07 - to the point where it is begging for mercy. If Ducati has now managed to tame the erratic front end, then at least they have progressed on one of the three main components of bike performance: the front end, the rear end and the bit in the middle. One out of three isn't really great progress, but at least it is some progress

I think we can safely (well, fairly safely) assume that Rossi's presence is as effective a guarantee of Ducati continuing to put bikes on the grid as the results they were previously achieving. I think we have to hope that Rossi decides to continue racing with Ducati beyond this year, though, or the alternative scenario might just come to fruition.

In the interests of moving the thrashing in a different direction:

Has anyone managed to obtain a coherent photo of the GP12 frame?

Images of the swingarm pivot area are easy to come across, and I've seen, somewhere, an oblique angle shot of the front engine hangers. And that's it. It does appear quite different from the 'traditional' offerings...

If for simplicity (and my inability to load images) we take a beam frame to be of 3 basic 'pieces' the swingarm pivot area, the beam itself and the headstock area.

The swingarm pivot area of the frame seems remarkably 'tall'/upright compared to the Yamaha/Honda. This appears to be necessitated by Ducati continuing to bolt into the side of the rear bank of the V per the old trellis (??) but now they've rolled the engine back, you have a engine mount located almost directly above, but some distance away from the swingarm pivot...result: a 'tall'/long upright pivot area.
The beam section seems rather short, and appears to be more of an up-and-over/spine type arrangement. Part of this appears is due to the height of the aforementioned pivot area, but also seems that it may be due the width of the engine. The headstock is an ???, but the engine hangers are strange horn shaped pieces, again to get back to engine mounting points that have been repositioned due to the roll-back of the V.
The crux of the above, is that the GP12 frame appears quite 'inelegant', and while that's a terrible term on which to base evaluations, it does make you wonder about the compromises...and whether they'll allow Ducati to get where they need to be. Of course, the beam frame is definitely an improvement in one regard....the bike doesn't have to be split in 3 to work on anymore.

[JanBros]

you do have a good point. it almost looks like the Ducati twin spar is made of only 2 sections, a rear and a front. We can not see the front section, but it is very clear that the rear section comes a long way to the front . If you look at the jap's rear section, it is clear they want to keep it as short as possible and do not want it to extend to the front further than the swing arm pivot then nescesary :

[TwoStroke Institute]

Yes well spotted Hanuman. Reminds me of a 80's gixxer frame where the top rails went up and over the engine and tucked back in at the back of the tank.

[Hanuman]

Yes well spotted Hanuman. Reminds me of a 80's gixxer frame where the top rails went up and over the engine and tucked back in at the back of the tank.

That's what I was thinking of, also the 08? ZX-10R.
In any case, the GP12's frame looks like a victim of its engine layout...

If my memory is working, the picture of the 'horn-like' engine hangers was on that Italian site with the engine roll-back speculation based on the sump pick-up angle. Can't remember the name, so can't link....and can't post photos...so am useless...

Edit:
Here's the link to the article....
http://manziana.motocorse.com/blog/3230 ... ay_ENG.php

Scroll right to the bottom to find the GP12 frame shot.
Now what is that CF box just above the clutch....upper surface is plumbed to the airbox, lower surface to crankcase...seems an awfully large breather to route a frame spar over And what an efficient use of the frame mounting point on the front bank....to bolt a CFbox onto...

[Flyinlow27]

really disappointed that they were unable to test the new parts in Portugal. They need a spark. A step. Something that gets them within 15 seconds of the leader. That alone with invigorate Vale and give him that desire to push it again.

I'm predicting a new engine configuration for next year along with a new contract for Rossi. In fact, I bet those two issues are closely intertwined.