Ducati goings on. Part 2.

[tom]

They were 10 seconds slower on Sunday compared to any of the FP/QP sessions.
10 seconds....that's like riding around on the IODA CRT with a plug lead pulled. What does that tell you about how much they can soften off the power for these sloshingly wet sessions?
I wouldn't just take it as granted that the Ducati works well in the wet...it's worth considering the converse, that the Honda and Yamaha set-ups - so much better in the dry - aren't so flash in the wet.

The conditions were so variable over the weekend so I'm not sure how much we can read in to that. they were all out at different times on different tyres and testing different things. One miss of a 5 minute window where you happen to be in the pits getting something changed or on the track but with the wrong tyres, can lead to a massive difference in lap times compared to the riders who happen to be in the right place at the right time with the right tyres for that session. The free practice sessions were a lottery and the fastest pace in the qualifying was set on a mostly dry track.

[dave_m]

To my understanding the prevailing thought has always been that power delivery needs to be tame and smooth in the wet and to that effect the slower underpowered bikes come into their own in the wet. It strikes me very unusual that the opposite appears true of the Ducati, where the aggressive unridable beast of the paddock turns into a pussy cat in the wet... something not right there and surely there has to be a clue in there for Ducati

I think you wrote the answer without realizing it, "that effect the slower underpowered bikes come into their own in the wet", it's not because the underpowered bikes have smoother power delivery, it's because all the bikes have the same horsepower in the wet. Just for the sake of example, assume the normal bikes have 250HP and the underpowered bikes have 220HP, in the rain they are still both dialed back to 180HP or less. The other factor is that for a simple "rain map", the first thing to do is soften up how the power arrives and the Duc benefits most from that.

The rain is basically a perfect fix for the two big problems Ducati have:

1) In the wet everyone has vague front end feel, not just the Ducati riders.
2) In the wet everyone has a very soft, usable power delivery, not just the Honda/Yamaha riders


EDIT: I'm not trying to rule out your "wrong noise" theory either, just saying the Duc is OK in the wet for the same reason the Honda doesn't chatter in the wet. (The riders aren't pushing as hard)

[Hanuman]

Thanks, dave_m. That's putting much more clearly than I did.

[tom]

To my understanding the prevailing thought has always been that power delivery needs to be tame and smooth in the wet and to that effect the slower underpowered bikes come into their own in the wet. It strikes me very unusual that the opposite appears true of the Ducati, where the aggressive unridable beast of the paddock turns into a pussy cat in the wet... something not right there and surely there has to be a clue in there for Ducati

I think you wrote the answer without realizing it, "that effect the slower underpowered bikes come into their own in the wet", it's not because the underpowered bikes have smoother power delivery, it's because all the bikes have the same horsepower in the wet. Just for the sake of example, assume the normal bikes have 250HP and the underpowered bikes have 220HP, in the rain they are still both dialed back to 180HP or less. The other factor is that for a simple "rain map", the first thing to do is soften up how the power arrives and the Duc benefits most from that.

The rain is basically a perfect fix for the two big problems Ducati have:

1) In the wet everyone has vague front end feel, not just the Ducati riders.
2) In the wet everyone has a very soft, usable power delivery, not just the Honda/Yamaha riders


EDIT: I'm not trying to rule out your "wrong noise" theory either, just saying the Duc is OK in the wet for the same reason the Honda doesn't chatter in the wet. (The riders aren't pushing as hard)

I'm still not convinced. I understand that wet weather is the great hp leveller but that is not really the issue. The issue here is the power delivery characteristics of the engine and not the amount of power it produces. For any given race class, bikes producing the most power tend to have more aggressive power delivery characteristics than their underpowered competitors as to some extend there is a trade-off between squeezing the last few hp out of an engine and a nice smooth power delivery, which is why I said "power delivery needs to be tame and smooth in the wet and to that effect the slower underpowered bikes come into their own in the wet"

I might be missing something here but you are arguing that the wet took away one of the few advantages Ducati had (hp advantage) which seems to support my side of the discussion, no? It shows Ducati not only overcome the normal one second disadvantage it has to produce the best lap time of the race but it did it with its normally strongest attribute hobbled.

A wet track as you say restricts the hp you can get to the ground but what it does not do is tame an aggressive power delivery. Years ago I had a 2000 zx9 and on the track it was a handful, the throttle was like an on/off switch and there just wasn’t the feedback from the rear (or the front for that matter) to really know how close to the limit you were. In the rain it turned into an unrideable pig! I have an 01 GSXR750 now for the track and it’s a dream in the wet and dry. Feel is crucial, the rider has to get feedback and a chassis that gives good feedback in the dry will also give good feedback in he wet. It’s all relative of coarse, 'good' wet feedback is never as good as 'good' dry feedback but all the same you need feedback even more in the wet. A bike that is not giving good feedback in the dry will be a disaster in the wet.

I think Rossi’s comment that in the wet everyone has a vague front end is a bit of a humorous throwaway line. It is a half-truth, yes everyone has a vague front end in the wet but its only relative to their dry front end feel. The wet takes some feedback from everyone, it does not however level the field and it certainly does not flip the field.

As to the everyone has soft usable power delivery in the wet theory; well that may be the case, everyone may have had the soft usable power they needed but it is not necessarly the case. We can say that it most defiantly was the case for the Rossi, as his pace was best in the field. However it was not the rain that produced this soft usable power delivery, it was the Ducati’s engine and its electronic's rain settings. Now if that engine/electronic package can deliver argueably the most usable engine in the field in a wet race, then it should be a walk in the park for Ducati to do the same for a dry race where to a much larger extent you can get away with a more aggressive power delivery.

The more I think about it the more I’m sure that the engine power delivery can in no way be part of Ducati’s problems.

[Squidpuppet]

where the aggressive unridable beast of the paddock turns into a pussy cat in the wet... something not right there and surely there has to be a clue in there for Ducati

Oh, I am sure it does not. My theory is NOT that the Duc becomes easier to ride in the wet. It is still a bitch. My theory is that the WET forces all the other riders to ride their bikes in a similar fashion to the Ducs. All riders are left waiting for the bike to be upright before nailing it, not just the Ducs.

[Hanuman]

I'm still not convinced. I understand that wet weather is the great hp leveller but that is not really the issue. The issue here is the power delivery characteristics of the engine and not the amount of power it produces.
<snip>
A wet track as you say restricts the hp you can get to the ground but what it does not do is tame an aggressive power delivery.

A bike that is not giving good feedback in the dry will be a disaster in the wet.

<snip>
The more I think about it the more I’m sure that the engine power delivery can in no way be part of Ducati’s problems.

I see where you're coming from. However, I take it from another angle.

Not that you can completely separate the engine characteristics from the chassis performance, but consider this scenario:

Let's say part of Ducati's problems are understeer issues caused by the chain pull causing squat at the rear, unloading the front.
In the wet, the tyre force vector of that chain pull will be (for examples sake) halved - less friction, less force. So the issue is already greatly reduced.

Let's also assume that the 'dry' Ducati does have an engine with an aggressive 'stepped' power delivery - which creates different chain loads throughout the rev range, exacerbating the above and making the handling inconsistent. The ECU will have a map for each gear, so in the lower ones, a wet setting will see (amongst other things) the timing retarded so much that the engine will be (relatively) mush....so it will greatly reduce the force fluctuations in the chain.

So now you have less force and less fluctuation...the handling is now more consistent.

[tom]

where the aggressive unridable beast of the paddock turns into a pussy cat in the wet... something not right there and surely there has to be a clue in there for Ducati

Oh, I am sure it does not. My theory is NOT that the Duc becomes easier to ride in the wet. It is still a bitch. My theory is that the WET forces all the other riders to ride their bikes in a similar fashion to the Ducs. All riders are left waiting for the bike to be upright before nailing it, not just the Ducs.

Ok, so maybe pussy cat is a slight exaggeration My counter to your theory is that; yes in the wet all the riders are getting their bikes straightened up a lot more before getting on the power, however they are still getting on the power as early as possible and they (or their bikes computers) are slowly feeding on the power using all the available traction, from the moment a tiny bit is available, increasing power until they are either at 100% throttle or need to brake for the next corner. This is same process as in the dry, its just that they are 5-10degrees or so closer to vertical and they have less feedback and less margin for error, as the wet dulls feel and the grip less predictable.

I see where you're coming from. However, I take it from another angle.

Not that you can completely separate the engine characteristics from the chassis performance, but consider this scenario:

Let's say part of Ducati's problems are understeer issues caused by the chain pull causing squat at the rear, unloading the front.
In the wet, the tyre force vector of that chain pull will be (for examples sake) halved - less friction, less force. So the issue is already greatly reduced.

Let's also assume that the 'dry' Ducati does have an engine with an aggressive 'stepped' power delivery - which creates different chain loads throughout the rev range, exacerbating the above and making the handling inconsistent. The ECU will have a map for each gear, so in the lower ones, a wet setting will see (amongst other things) the timing retarded so much that the engine will be (relatively) mush....so it will greatly reduce the force fluctuations in the chain.

So now you have less force and less fluctuation...the handling is now more consistent.

You are clouding the issue. Ducati will have decided on their swing arm angle and position of the front sprocket based on a plethora of factors all intertwined and full of the compromises that are ultimately at the heart of every bike design. Perhaps they have got that wrong or made the wrong compromises, if so then that is an issue separate to the engine power delivery characteristics and something that a professional team like Ducati would fix not by changing the power but by moving the swing arm position and/or angle (both readably adjustable on most race bikes). Certainly there may be a link between the two areas and it is possible that it is an issue that may be masked by a wet race but I think it is a long bow to draw and ultimately not an engine power delivery issue.

The conventional wisdom is that better handling bikes with smoother power delivery characteristics do better in the wet than their more aggressive and not as well handling counterparts. This (as could be expected) was the case for the slightly underpowered and slightly better handled Yamaha at LeMans over the slightly more aggressive and not as sweet handled Honda (note the lack of exaggeration SquidPuppet ). However this was inexplicably not the case for Ducati which went the opposite way and had a massive reversal of fortunes going from;

Race 1 - 7th fastest, 1.1 seconds off the pace
Race 2 - 7 fastest, 1.0 seconds off the pace
Race 3 - 8th fastest, 1.2 seconds off the pace
to
Race 4 - Fastest lap of the race, 0.3 seconds ahead of the next fastest.

This happened in a 4 race period that included no new parts and next to zero useful hours testing time. Ok Vale lifted his game, as obviously in his position a podium and race win is worth risking life and limb for but not so much a battle for 6-8th. But he wasn't holding back to the tune of a second and a half.

Sure if he was riding a 'Suzuki like' sweet handling bike that is 25kmph down on the field in the dry, then certainly a 1.5 second reversal in relative lap times can be explained in the wet (e.g. Chris Vermulan, Ant West etc...) but Ducati? it's pretty much the opposite type of bike to what the Suzuki's were.

[dave_m]

I just don't think a there's near that much correlation between the performance in wet and dry conditions. They may as well be two different bikes as they aren't going to have the same problems. Also, best lap time doesn't correlate as strongly to finishing position in the wet, Bradl, Bautista and Ellison are all good examples of that.

[Squidpuppet]

Ok, so maybe pussy cat is a slight exaggeration

Slight???

[dave_m]

So what does everyone think of the aluminum swingarm on Hayden's bike at the Mugello test? The Rossi pictures still showed a CF swingarm.

[Gustav O]

So what does everyone think of the aluminum swingarm on Hayden's bike at the Mugello test? The Rossi pictures still showed a CF swingarm.

To help with traction? How? I have no effin clue..

[Thornado]

Carbon fiber isn't a very good rapid prototyping material. Takes too long to bake. If I wanted to quickly test out variations on a part metal is the way to go.

[Grahluk]

Carbon fiber isn't a very good rapid prototyping material. Takes too long to bake. If I wanted to quickly test out variations on a part metal is the way to go.

Bingo! And I was going to make a smarmy remark that we are watching the slow metamorphoses of the Duc into an RCV.

[Hanuman]

Carbon fiber isn't a very good rapid prototyping material. Takes too long to bake. If I wanted to quickly test out variations on a part metal is the way to go.

I'm not doubting your position, just wondering how long the baking process would take compared to say, the precipitation hardening (several hours of hot pickling?) of whatever Ally alloy they are using...
Then again, I have no idea of what the full contruction of the CF swingarm is and how complex the moulds might be should they need get into them?

[yzr750]

Carbon fiber isn't a very good rapid prototyping material. Takes too long to bake. If I wanted to quickly test out variations on a part metal is the way to go.

I'm not doubting your position, just wondering how long the baking process would take compared to say, the precipitation hardening (several hours of hot pickling?) of whatever Ally alloy they are using...
Then again, I have no idea of what the full contruction of the CF swingarm is and how complex the moulds might be should they need get into them?

The molds are quite complex, it would take longer to make the molds than to fabricate a complete alloy swingarm. Add to that fact that it can be in the autoclave for up to a week.
An aluminium swingarm can be made and used without heat treatment, there are some 7xxx series alloys that are designed to retain enough of their strength after fabrication to negate the need for heat treat.

[TwoStroke Institute]

You can drop the post weld heat treatment but it's not adviseable it cruels ductility. With CNC a mdf mould could be made very quickly..............autoclave who needs one of those, just leave it on the dash and park the car out in the open with the windows up on a stinkin hot day

[Hanuman]

The molds are quite complex, it would take longer to make the molds than to fabricate a complete alloy swingarm. Add to that fact that it can be in the autoclave for up to a week.
An aluminium swingarm can be made and used without heat treatment, there are some 7xxx series alloys that are designed to retain enough of their strength after fabrication to negate the need for heat treat.

Cheers, yzr. A week, not including stuffing around with the moulds. Only to chuck it in the bin when the reality didn't match the computer screen

I knew that there are Ally alloys that don't need the heat-treatment (or rather they age at room temp), but in a chassis where they're chasing what would seem to be some critical stiffness characteristics....you wouldn't want your fabricated swingarm changing properties on you...

[Oscar]

You can drop the post weld heat treatment but it's not adviseable it cruels ductility. With CNC a mdf mould could be made very quickly..............autoclave who needs one of those, just leave it on the dash and park the car out in the open with the windows up on a stinkin hot day

3D printing of the mould - CAD to mould in a very short time. Post-weld heat treatment is almost imperative to relieve localised stresses, unless the piece is massively over-strength, and even then you're highly likely to get stress cracking starting from the weld interface due to inter-granular thermal shock (differential cooling).

Use the dash of the car? - you've been bloody peeking , haven't you? But realistically, to generate a properly controlled cure you need a damn accurate autoclave and the reported times for Ducati c/f production are amongst the longest I've ever heard of for a pre-preg layup, whatever resin and cure cycle they're using, it's pretty exotic.

[Hanuman]

So what does everyone think of the aluminum swingarm on Hayden's bike at the Mugello test? The Rossi pictures still showed a CF swingarm.

Further on this....does this mean Hayden is leading development, or is he test-rider for Rossi?

[Zaphod]

Maybe Hayden is testing some new bits, and Rossi is testing others. If you throw all the new bits on one bike and it is better/worse in say, getting rid of understeer-improving traction, which bit did it ? The engine mod or the swing arm ?

Spread the workload and maintain some sort of datum point.

Damn !!!, ....conjecture reasonable doubt thrown into yet another "Rossi is a meglamaniac prima-donna who gets his team-mates to do all the dirty work so that he can reap the rewards and look good" hypothesis.......

Apologies.

[yzr750]

You can drop the post weld heat treatment but it's not adviseable it cruels ductility. With CNC a mdf mould could be made very quickly..............autoclave who needs one of those, just leave it on the dash and park the car out in the open with the windows up on a stinkin hot day

3D printing of the mould - CAD to mould in a very short time. Post-weld heat treatment is almost imperative to relieve localised stresses, unless the piece is massively over-strength, and even then you're highly likely to get stress cracking starting from the weld interface due to inter-granular thermal shock (differential cooling).

Use the dash of the car? - you've been bloody peeking , haven't you? But realistically, to generate a properly controlled cure you need a damn accurate autoclave and the reported times for Ducati c/f production are amongst the longest I've ever heard of for a pre-preg layup, whatever resin and cure cycle they're using, it's pretty exotic.

3d printing is not suitable to make molds that have to go in an autoclave, maybe sls if you can find one with a big enough footprint for a swingarm, but the resolution of those would require post machining anyway.
Aluminium 7020 will not require heat treatment after welding, and is used in the construction of mtb frames without post processing, and does not suffer inordinately from stress fractures. I have used this alloy to construct my own motorcycle frames and swingarms without any problems whatsoever, and I currently use it in my business to manufacture rocket components, without post weld heat treat.
http://www.aircraftmaterialsuk.com/data/aluminium/7020.html

[Hanuman]

Maybe Hayden is testing some new bits, and Rossi is testing others. If you throw all the new bits on one bike and it is better/worse in say, getting rid of understeer-improving traction, which bit did it ? The engine mod or the swing arm ?

Spread the workload and maintain some sort of datum point.

Damn !!!, ....conjecture reasonable doubt thrown into yet another "Rossi is a meglamaniac prima-donna who gets his team-mates to do all the dirty work so that he can reap the rewards and look good" hypothesis.......

Apologies.

Ahh, man. The LAST thing I want to start is down that road.
It was an honest question, I definitely agree with your 'datum point' point, but am genuinely curious - given that Rossi has stated that he's adopting a more Hayden-esque style and is following NH's data - whether the development lead has shifted somewhat.

[Gustav O]

Ahh, man. The LAST thing I want to start is down that road.
It was an honest question, I definitely agree with your 'datum point' point, but am genuinely curious - given that Rossi has stated that he's adopting a more Hayden-esque style and is following NH's data - whether the development lead has shifted somewhat.

I think it just a pragmatic approach. two days of testing and the first half rains away. You can´t just chuck all new parts on a bike because you will not know what will make a difference so they divide the work load. Rossi takes some parts and Hayden others.

[Hanuman]

I think it just a pragmatic approach. two days of testing and the first half rains away. You can´t just chuck all new parts on a bike because you will not know what will make a difference so they divide the work load. Rossi takes some parts and Hayden others.

I completely agree.
I'm not questioning the test methodology, nor trying to read into whose pit RULEZ#1, it just prompted me to think whether Ducati has adopted a single development path now (maybe they feel they're closer...?), and who's forging that path?

[Zaphod]

Apologies, not a personal attack, I just forget who the all Rossi haters are by name.

........and I'm not a Rossi fanatic, I would have said the same if it were between Stoner and Pedrosa. These guy's have shed-loads of work to get through in short time. I don't see it as good practise for Ducati to be playing favorites, especially given dry form of both riders. If the machine was top class, then I'd say Rossi should be the better of the two riders ( no disrespect to Nicky, just going on records/facts) as the ride in the wet may be an indication of, but in their current plight...and judging by Rossi's acceptance of using someone else's settings, they need to all work together to get to where they are aiming for.

Can't see any of them playing "favorites" with such a high workload to get through.