Ducati goings on. Part 2.

[Gustav O]

I completely agree.
I'm not questioning the test methodology, nor trying to read into whose pit RULEZ#1, it just prompted me to think whether Ducati has adopted a single development path now (maybe they feel they're closer...?), and who's forging that path?

Interesting angle. I think Rossi and Hayden now are very close in set up and what they need to run faster so I think it is a joint venture so to speak. Judging by Alex Briggs´s tweets they seem a little more optimistic regarding base set up and a base line to start from, wich was a huge problem last year as they didn´t know where to start as something that workedat track A was rubbish for track B.

[Oscar]

3d printing is not suitable to make molds that have to go in an autoclave, maybe sls if you can find one with a big enough footprint for a swingarm, but the resolution of those would require post machining anyway.

I know of one that's producing moulds here in Aus. for aluminium casting that would probably take a swing-arm (will take a four-cylinder engine cankcase, for sure), and yes, there is post-machining needed, though that's limited compared to conventional investment moulding techniques. It took over 9 months to develop a suitable printing medium and the guy isn't telling anybody what that is, atm anyway.

Aluminium 7020 will not require heat treatment after welding, and is used in the construction of mtb frames without post processing, and does not suffer inordinately from stress fractures. I have used this alloy to construct my own motorcycle frames and swingarms without any problems whatsoever, and I currently use it in my business to manufacture rocket components, without post weld heat treat.

Fair enough - I assume you're using design techniques where high load paths don't cross weld lines. Do you pre-heat the component prior to welding? Aircraft construction practice almost always requires post-treatment to relieve the inter-granular stress between the weld pool and the parent metal, but 7020 is not an alloy I'm familiar with, I don't think it figures much in aircraft production.

Without hijacking this thread, you might like to check out:http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0010938X8590068X for an analysis of the effect of welding on 7020. It appears that provided the ultimate load is fairly low, heat treatment is certainly not required ( as you say), but the inter-granular zone is susceptible to corrosion in wet conditions (and probably even worse in wet saline conditions: don't take yer motoGp bike for a ride on the beach! )

[yzr750]

I know of one that's producing moulds here in Aus. for aluminium casting that would probably take a swing-arm (will take a four-cylinder engine cankcase, for sure), and yes, there is post-machining needed, though that's limited compared to conventional investment moulding techniques. It took over 9 months to develop a suitable printing medium and the guy isn't telling anybody what that is, atm anyway.

Molds for casting are a completely different ball game than molds used in an autoclave, 3d printing is ideal for investment casting, it has been used by jewelers for years, and I have also used 3d printing for small runs of castings.
Molds for autoclave work have to have minimal outgassing, easily modeled and controlled thermal expansion properties, and be robust enough to maintain their geometry at temperature and pressure. Any medium that lends itself to 3d printing has none of those properties.

[Cam D]

3d printing is not suitable to make molds that have to go in an autoclave, maybe sls if you can find one with a big enough footprint for a swingarm, but the resolution of those would require post machining anyway.

I know of one that's producing moulds here in Aus. for aluminium casting that would probably take a swing-arm (will take a four-cylinder engine cankcase, for sure), and yes, there is post-machining needed, though that's limited compared to conventional investment moulding techniques. It took over 9 months to develop a suitable printing medium and the guy isn't telling anybody what that is, atm anyway.

Aluminium 7020 will not require heat treatment after welding, and is used in the construction of mtb frames without post processing, and does not suffer inordinately from stress fractures. I have used this alloy to construct my own motorcycle frames and swingarms without any problems whatsoever, and I currently use it in my business to manufacture rocket components, without post weld heat treat.

Fair enough - I assume you're using design techniques where high load paths don't cross weld lines. Do you pre-heat the component prior to welding? Aircraft construction practice almost always requires post-treatment to relieve the inter-granular stress between the weld pool and the parent metal, but 7020 is not an alloy I'm familiar with, I don't think it figures much in aircraft production.

Without hijacking this thread, you might like to check out:http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0010938X8590068X for an analysis of the effect of welding on 7020. It appears that provided the ultimate load is fairly low, heat treatment is certainly not required ( as you say), but the inter-granular zone is susceptible to corrosion in wet conditions (and probably even worse in wet saline conditions: don't take yer motoGp bike for a ride on the beach! )

My son rides pushbike trials and some of his alloy frames had copper and zink in them (not sure what %). edit: The company (Koxx) touted that they used Aircraft grade aluminium in their frames. I think it was 7075 aluminum alloy's composition roughly includes 5.6-6.1% zinc, 2.1-2.5% magnesium, 1.2-1.6% copper, and less than half a percent of silicon, iron, manganese, titanium, chromium, and other metals. Apparently it needs about 30 days cure time after welding, nomally taken up by shipping time.
We had some cracking issues but they were welded by an aircraft mob at Archerfield and had no post weld treatment other than sitting them out in the sun afterwards. Never had any issues with the areas that were welded. Beautiful work actually. (Aviation Welding http://www.aviationwelding.com.au/) Normally it cracked at the next weak joint though The frame on his training bike was welded in 12 different places (over 4 years) and is still going, but my son loved the geo and it was hard to find another.

[Oscar]

Molds for autoclave work have to have minimal outgassing, easily modeled and controlled thermal expansion properties, and be robust enough to maintain their geometry at temperature and pressure. Any medium that lends itself to 3d printing has none of those properties.

Agree on all points - except for the medium one, but I did say it took him 9 months to crack what he needed (and that's absolutely linked to temp, pressure and outgassing problems) and it's all CIC so about now I need to shut up, so yes, for all practical purposes you are absolutely right..

[Geonerd]

Damn !!!, ....conjecture reasonable doubt thrown into yet another "Rossi is a meglamaniac prima-donna who gets his team-mates to do all the dirty work so that he can reap the rewards and look good" hypothesis.......

Apologies.

Let's not get too carried away with this Lovey-Dovey, good-will-to-all crap!

Just because The Great One is cooperating (to an unknown degree ) doesn't mean he can't and won't revert to form once success is at hand!

Looks like the weather has improved markedly. Any whispers of lap times?

[Zaphod]

What does that have to do with the technical discussion about the work going on at Ducati ? That was my attempt at circumventing the de-railing of this topic into yet another version of the teen-girl slanging match that seems to permiate the air here lately.

Try the childish, pointless "Stoner v Rossi" topic.

............or "Crash.net"

As for your baseless opinion, I haven't read Nicky saying anything like that which you claim, something he didn't have a problem saying when he was at Honda. Nor did Edwards or Lorenzo make such claims.

Now, can I please get back to reading stuff about Ducati without "Dolly Magazine" interuptions ?

[dave_m]

Looks like the weather has improved markedly. Any whispers of lap times?

The reported / rumored lap times are slower than previous race times, apparently due to F1 testing and rain the night before the test. Apparently the times for Troy Bayliss on the Panigale were slower as well, but we'll know for sure when they get to Mugello and the upgrades have arrived as to whether they've managed to close the gap at all.

[WayneG]

That was my attempt at circumventing the de-railing of this topic into yet another version of the teen-girl slanging match that seems to permiate the air here lately.

And yet

As for your baseless opinion, I haven't read Nicky saying anything like that which you claim, something he didn't have a problem saying when he was at Honda. Nor did Edwards or Lorenzo make such claims.
Now, can I please get back to reading stuff about Ducati without "Dolly Magazine" interuptions ?

[Zaphod]

Fair call. It was 5am, I was really getting into the CF alloy thing of the last half a dozen posts, learning a thing or ten............ and bloody rider personality opinion gets throw into the mix, again !!



Sooo........any news on just what engine mods they are going to try this time ?


........or something.

[dave_m]

Sooo........any news on just what engine mods they are going to try this time ?


........or something.

Rumor was heavier/different crankshaft, but the electronics may be more significant. Plan is to test the same items at Barcelona and Aragon to make sure they translate to other tracks and then start using them at Silverstone.

Supposedly the engine problems couldn't be solved though electronics alone, so I'm not sure what to make of the change in strategy for the electronics. Ducati is changing from cutting spark only, to cutting spark and fuel, same as Yamaha and Honda. Can they implement this on the current engines, or would it require waiting on the new ones? If so, that may be what they meant when they couldn't fix the problems on their current engines with electronics only.

[Zaphod]

Heavier rotating mass would make sense in taming power delivery.

Interesting the trials and tribulations of the Panigale. Ducati seem stuck on this horsepower thing, much like Honda used to be.After getting stitched up by Yamaha a few times, and Suzuki twice, they seemed to modify that approach slightly.

Waiting with baited breath to see if Ducwinkle.J.Moose can pull a rabbit out of their hat, thistime.

[Hanuman]

Rumor was heavier/different crankshaft, but the electronics may be more significant. Plan is to test the same items at Barcelona and Aragon to make sure they translate to other tracks and then start using them at Silverstone.

Supposedly the engine problems couldn't be solved though electronics alone, so I'm not sure what to make of the change in strategy for the electronics. Ducati is changing from cutting spark only, to cutting spark and fuel, same as Yamaha and Honda. Can they implement this on the current engines, or would it require waiting on the new ones? If so, that may be what they meant when they couldn't fix the problems on their current engines with electronics only.

Surely Ducati would have to be cutting fuel and spark given the 21 litre rule? I would have thought spark-only cuts would see more lovely exhaust flames? Perhaps they don't cut but just chuck the timing to after TDC...In any case, I can't (which doesn't mean someone else shouldn't be able to ) think of a reason why a new electronics package couldn't be implemented on the current engine. Even if fuel-cut outs are on the cards, the worst that would mean is some new injectors...which can't be that much bigger???

[ianthem]

Looks like the weather has improved markedly. Any whispers of lap times?

The reported / rumored lap times are slower than previous race times, apparently due to F1 testing and rain the night before the test. Apparently the times for Troy Bayliss on the Panigale were slower as well, but we'll know for sure when they get to Mugello and the upgrades have arrived as to whether they've managed to close the gap at all.

A green track only being circulated by three bikes isn't going to be very fast in the first place, plus the track being a bit cool the first day and then very hot the next. Can't really speculate on those times unfortunately, speed is relative.

[Gustav O]

Alex Briggs ( mechanic) said that they tested stuff that they would be able to use right away and some other stuff that needed more evaluation and testing (that will be done at Montmelo and Aragon).
Just guessing I would say that electronics will be used right away while the new swing arm and the altered engine will come later.

[dave_m]

Surely Ducati would have to be cutting fuel and spark given the 21 litre rule? I would have thought spark-only cuts would see more lovely exhaust flames? Perhaps they don't cut but just chuck the timing to after TDC...In any case, I can't (which doesn't mean someone else shouldn't be able to ) think of a reason why a new electronics package couldn't be implemented on the current engine. Even if fuel-cut outs are on the cards, the worst that would mean is some new injectors...which can't be that much bigger???

I would have thought the same as you, but the electronics / ignition info was from the motomatters report. You'd think it could work with the current engine, but I doubt anyone here is familiar enough with the GP12 engine layout to know for sure. Electronics could have been designed to work with the new engine or replacement parts could require the engine seal to be broken, either way we'll find out for sure at the next race rounds and the following tests.

[Oscar]

My son rides pushbike trials and some of his alloy frames had copper and zink in them (not sure what %). edit: The company (Koxx) touted that they used Aircraft grade aluminium in their frames. I think it was 7075 aluminum alloy's composition roughly includes 5.6-6.1% zinc, 2.1-2.5% magnesium, 1.2-1.6% copper, and less than half a percent of silicon, iron, manganese, titanium, chromium, and other metals. Apparently it needs about 30 days cure time after welding, nomally taken up by shipping time.
We had some cracking issues but they were welded by an aircraft mob at Archerfield and had no post weld treatment other than sitting them out in the sun afterwards. Never had any issues with the areas that were welded. Beautiful work actually. (Aviation Welding http://www.aviationwelding.com.au/) Normally it cracked at the next weak joint though The frame on his training bike was welded in 12 different places (over 4 years) and is still going, but my son loved the geo and it was hard to find another.

Cam - sorry about the delay of this but 7075 rang a dull bell and I did some follow-up, and this is very much worth noting: http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/knowledge/qa/How-Do-I-Weld-2024-and-7075.cfm You may have 7005 or 6061 (T6), or if it's 7075 then likely the frame is fairly lightly stressed (i.e. heaver than it could be..)

[cmb]

6 engine rule really sucks when you have a bike that has major flaws. I want to see good racing from Ducati, Honda and Yamaha. That rule needs to be taken out how does it save any money. Ducati are still making motors like crazy but now they can't use them.

[TwoStroke Institute]

off topic hijack alert.........................

Have we seen amy 'irritations' of a chatter reducing frame from Honda?

[Gustav O]

off topic hijack alert.........................

Have we seen amy 'irritations' of a chatter reducing frame from Honda?

As far as I know not since Sepang II.

[dave_m]

6 engine rule really sucks when you have a bike that has major flaws. I want to see good racing from Ducati, Honda and Yamaha. That rule needs to be taken out how does it save any money. Ducati are still making motors like crazy but now they can't use them.

We're not very far from Ducati introducing a new engine on schedule, so I don't think it matters that much right now. They are planning to race and test at Catalunya, test at Aragon and then start using their next new engine at Silverstone. It may not have all the upgrades yet, but they will by Laguna Seca at the latest. Even without the engine rule, it's doubtful they introduce things a lot earlier so we're probably only talking about a 1 or 2 race difference at most. There's a certain amount of time they need between the tests and actually using things in the race, so I'm not sure the delay is even that bad for Ducati. Rossi isn't going to win the championship this year, so they are better of getting things done right and makeing the sure they are on the correct development path.

The engine rule does make frameless designs next to impossible to implement though, as Ducati found out last year, when the frame modifications required a new engine.

[Oscar]

Noyes has written an article on Speedtv ( http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-noyes-notebook-irreplaceable-pt-ii/P2/ ) with some interesting stats. that, if you remove Stoner from the equation, show how low a base Ducati are coming off from the 800cc bike.

Of all riders of an 800cc Duc, Stoner averaged a points per start of 16.3 - i.e. on average, a podium! And that's for starts, so includes all crashes.

The overall points per start for all Duc 800 riders was 4.4 - that's an average 12th place.

Now, if we take Stoner out of the equation and all other things remained equal, Ducati would have gained an average 2.02 points per start - that's an average 14th place. And that's with Stoner not racing on another bike and taking points away from Ducati riders...

[tom]

We think of Rossi's attempts on Ducati as disastrous but looking at those stats puts it into perspective. With only one year on the duke he has a better average than any other rider (except Casey obviously) including Nicky and some other world class riders that only rode the duke in years where it was arguably a lot more competitive then it was last year. Yet our opinions of his effort are so tainted by comparisons to Casey that many deem his effort a failure.

[Cam D]

Yet our opinions of his effort are so tainted by comparisons to Casey that many deem his effort a failure.

Yeah it's not been quite that simple though. There was/is a reasonable amount of expectation because of previous comments and his "Doctor" type mantle that he accepted. Pretty easy to understand why fans of the sport have expected more.

[tom]

Yet our opinions of his effort are so tainted by comparisons to Casey that many deem his effort a failure.

Yeah it's not been quite that simple though. There was/is a reasonable amount of expectation because of previous comments and his "Doctor" type mantle that he accepted. Pretty easy to understand why fans of the sport have expected more.

Yes of coarse and that is partially my point. For whatever reason, many expected him to be a lot more competitive than he was, however looking at the stats he was an alien to his peers, especially when you take account of the fact the Ducati has been getting more and more uncompetitive as the years past and that Rossi has had only one year on it.