Ducati goings on. Part 2.

[DJH]

That is a gross oversimplification of the true situation.

Ultimately, Vale is now finding that out the hard way.

[Zaphod]

TELEGRAM FOR V.ROSSI

TOP SECRET SUCESSFUL MODIFICATION FOR YOUR DUCATI

http://youtu.be/LibEP08aX1Y


Hope this is succsful for you too............,

Kind Regards,

Stefan.

.............it's funny now 'cause Stefan was okay afterwards.

[Tourn46]

He DNF'd 5 times.

Seriously though, 5 times isn't good though is it? A possible 125 points he got zero. I'm not saying this as a slur against Stoner, but I really feel that the last 2 years in particular he hasn't been very good on the Ducati compared to others on different bikes.

[Kropotkin]

He DNF'd 5 times.

Seriously though, 5 times isn't good though is it? A possible 125 points he got zero. I'm not saying this as a slur against Stoner, but I really feel that the last 2 years in particular he hasn't been very good on the Ducati compared to others on different bikes.

And is that down to Stoner or down to the Ducati? Hayden had the most crashes of his career in 2010, so that would seem to suggest that it is the Ducati that is flawed. Valentino Rossi - a rider who just 10 months ago was winning races with a defective shoulder - can only get on the podium when assisted by the failings of others, and has had more crashes this year already than in any of his previous seasons.

What this season has made clear to everyone is that Casey Stoner is a terrible reference point on the Ducati. He could ride round the problems on the Ducati that other riders are either unable or unwilling to. Stoner's time on a Honda (drifting off course a little, but I'll bring it back in a moment) shows that when he's on a great bike, he's just an "ordinary" alien, as hard a man to beat as Jorge Lorenzo, but still beatable.

All the data points to is one thing: The Ducati is a dog. Stoner was willing to ride around its problems, and that convinced Ducati that the bike was fine, just needed some tweaks. Rossi is not willing to ride around its problems, as he has a fraction more regard for his health than Stoner does, and he is making the best of a bad job.

Now, this is a very interesting topic, but I don't want it to descend into another Stoner vs Rossi debate. That is currently the most boring topic on the internet, and both sides are just as guilty as the other. What I am interested in is ideas how Ducati could improve and what their real problem is. So please everyone, stick to the topic.

[coyote]

I get the thrust of what you are saying and understand that you aren't specifically attacking Stoner - indeed you've praised him and I recognise that - but the toss-away line perpetuates the idea that the GP 10 with Stoner aboard was virtually useless. That is a gross oversimplification of the true situation.

He finished behind a rider on Yamaha who missed 4 races and rode injured in 13 of the 14 races he participated in. He finished behind a rider in Honda who missed 2 races and rode the last 3 races severely injured. He finished 158 points behind the champion on Yamaha. And to be fair to redmike, I got that remark more as a try to emphasize the frequency Stoner threw it to the gravel, which was a lot.

At this point Rossi is on his way to collect 29 points less than Stoner did in last year in the midst of much improved opposition. That tells a story of either Stoner's consistency
(or lack of) in 2010 or Rossi's consistency in 2011. IMO the well used phrase of "Stoner was winning races on the bike Rossi is using now" is hyperbole of the greatest extent.

[Zaphod]

Apologies, and you are correct Krop.

What's the chances of The Duck having an alloy frame Krop ?......... at present there are rumours getting around that Ducati are having this idea thrust at them.

Do you know if the carbon and the "L" are inseparable from Ducati idiology when it comes to GP motorcycle design ?


............on a side note, JB states from time to time that he never goes into a season without thinking that he ( the team he is working for) can't win the title.

..............This must be a tough year for all three parties.......... and a really bad bike if JB can't get something out of it.

[Oscar]

Seriously though, 5 times isn't good though is it

Ducatis (excepting Checa) DNF'd a total of 21 times last season. Hayden DNF'd 3 times, came 7th in the championship. The rider with the LEAST number of DNF's was Barbera (1 DNF) - who came 12th. Kallio and Espargaro had 6 DNF's each, and came 14th and 17th. An average for all full-time riders of 4 (rounded down!) The averaged WC position for all Ducatis was 10.8

Hayden is not known as a 'crasher', therefore it would seem that about the 'safe' zone for riding the thing BY A motoGp CHAMPION was about a steady 8th position or thereabouts. Does that sound at all familiar with reference to this season?

Yamahas in total DNF'd 4 times - 2 apiece for Edwards and Spies. An average for all full-time riders of 1. The averaged WC position for all Yamahas was 5.25 The 'safe' zone for riding a Yamaha was, if we are generous to all the other bikes, about a steady second position.

Hondas in total DNF'd 10 times (full time riders): Pedrosa 1, Dovi 3, and 2 apiece for Simoncelli, de Puniet and Melandri. An average for all full-time riders of 2. The averaged WC position for all Hondas was 6.8 The 'safe' zone for riding a Honda was about a steady 4th position or thereabouts.

[JanBros]

I like to talk motorcycles, but I'm done talking about Stoner/Rossi-Burgess Ducati going-on's. This topic is becoming exactly the same as the first "ducati-going on's" which was closed beacuse off this.

so I sujest to add something in the title (like in race-topics "spoilers") like "Rossi vs Stoner on the Ducati" and then maybe a second topic "Ducati going on's part 3 - Bike related only " .

[Kropotkin]

I like to talk motorcycles, but I'm done talking about Stoner/Rossi-Burgess Ducati going-on's. This topic is becoming exactly the same as the first "ducati-going on's" which was closed beacuse off this.

so I sujest to add something in the title (like in race-topics "spoilers") like "Rossi vs Stoner on the Ducati" and then maybe a second topic "Ducati going on's part 3 - Bike related only " .

All further Rossi vs Stoner comparisons will be deleted, without regard to their relevance.

[motor]

IMHO it's probably a burgess decision to continue with the GP11.1 rather than going back to GP11 and then on in circles. Such a decision is pretty in line with their philosophy of "If a change makes something better and something else worse, keep the change and then work on to fix the negative sides without losing the newly gained positives".

The GP11.1 obviously does solve one problem perfectly/completely - the rear end issues - so JB's pragmatic point of view would certainly point out that backtracking to a GP11, which doesn't solve anything completely, is a bad idea.

I'll be quite surprised if JB didn't grumble when they first decided to move onto a GP11.1. Perhaps the Silverstone nightmare rendered him rather voice-less.

It will be interesting to know what JB thinking about moving to a standard frame. IIRC, JB was rather against the idea when Rossi wanted bridgestones.

[L34]

I hear Nicky will be using the GP11 today, if this is the case where does that leave Ducati with the GP11.1?
They need to find around 7/10th of a second of race pace.
I just dont see how they will find with either bikes.

David what is the feeling in the Ducati camp?
Have they got a new bike on the drawing board, some secret weapon they are working on
and do they know WHY the bike has no feeling in the front end?

Some say the "L" engine is the cause while others speculate its the carbon fibre head stock.
Surely by now they would of built a test mule with different materials and engine design.
(They built a new engine for the GP11.1)

[Zaphod]

Why do you think JB grumbled ? (innocent question)

From the talk of this year turning into an extended testing regime, and agreeing with your first theory.......surely he'd be happy to see the blokes on the new thing, so as to keep working to fix the front end problem.

Does anybody have the info on how the 1000cc times stack up against the Jap 1000's ?.........just as a comparison to see how much better the 1000cc works in this frame, vs how far off the mark it is in 800cc guise.

[motor]

My understanding is that JB would consider the GP11.1 shift a case of

"We can't solve this problem since we don't understand it yet. So let us change the problem and then try to solve it and hope that IF we manage to do so this time it will solve all problems including the original one"

and be rather opposed to the idea...just my current understanding, I could be wrong!

[Kropotkin]

Does anybody have the info on how the 1000cc times stack up against the Jap 1000's ?.........just as a comparison to see how much better the 1000cc works in this frame, vs how far off the mark it is in 800cc guise.

In testing, the Ducati 1000 wasn't as fast as Honda's 800 at Mugello ("We weren't doing no 47.3s" Nicky Hayden). The Honda 1000 was 2 seconds faster than the 800s at Jerez, but at least a second of that was down to better weather conditions.

The conclusion, however, is that Ducati is in a deep, deep hole.

[WayneG]

I find it interesting that Nicky has decided to ride the GP11 instead of the GP11.1. As soon as he threw a leg over the 11.1 in FP1 its engine became part of his allocation for this year, which means he has to return to the 11.1 at some stage later in the season. I thought that they would throw all their developement behind the 11.1 if for no other reason than it is the chosen configuration for 2012 (at this stage). I have a sneaking suspicion that Nicky would very much like to finish ahead of one VR46 this season and the GP11 gives him the best chance. There is only 13 points in it at this stage. Does Nicky have a contract for 2012?

[motor]

So can we reduce Ducati's problems to a relative lack of chassis expertise and nothing else?

I mean, they really don't seem to have a problem with engine outputs or reliability...nor with electronics, not much anyway, since they were the trailblazers in that particular department once.

[Cam D]

Does anybody have the info on how the 1000cc times stack up against the Jap 1000's ?.........just as a comparison to see how much better the 1000cc works in this frame, vs how far off the mark it is in 800cc guise.

In testing, the Ducati 1000 wasn't as fast as Honda's 800 at Mugello ("We weren't doing no 47.3s" Nicky Hayden). The Honda 1000 was 2 seconds faster than the 800s at Jerez, but at least a second of that was down to better weather conditions.

The conclusion, however, is that Ducati is in a deep, deep hole.

From what I read they are pretty low on motors as well. Hayden has two left? That will also be an interesting thing to follow.

[Kropotkin]

On engines: Rossi joked at Mugello "We have lots of engines." It's not an issue, they have already resigned themselves to starting from pit lane at least once.

[Cam D]

I wonder if Ducati will insist on Nicky taking the new bike after this meeting. That would give them two lots of data and may speed up the process a little.

[JanBros]

So can we reduce Ducati's problems to a relative lack of chassis expertise and nothing else?

I thinck the whole concept off the bike is wrong.

first the "frameless" concept : at MotoGP level, it's not good enough to have "some flex". you need the right amount off flex at the right position. As one can see on all major japanese sportbikes (road and GP), the most flex is at halfway distance off both wheels (=in the frame, just before the swing arm pivot). one exception was the ZX10 from Kawasaki (not the new one); which frame was massive at that point. it was ok on the road, but once it had to compete on a high level in races (whether it was WSBK, BSB, IDM,...), it was a dog. if you look at the 2011 ZX10, it has a completly different chassis, with the frame-beam smallest just before the pivot, and it's much more competitive than it has been since 2004 when the first one came out.
Since the Ducati only has an engine there, they can't have any flex at that point, which makes it excactly the same as the old ZX10 : shitty for racing.

a consequence off the frameless concept : it's hard to play with the position off the engine in the frame (any "special-homologation-road bike for WSBK even has this posibility build in) which limit's the setup-posibilities off the bike. and making the swing arm pivot in the engine, it's evenly hard to adjust that (even road bikes/superbikes had that since the early '90's).

and though there is nothing wrong with the 90° V-angle for an engine, I thinck it makes the engine too big for a MotoGP-bike, again limiting the possibilities off placing the engine excactly there where you want it, and not "thereabout somewhere).

Burgess/Rossi/Preziosi can do what they want , they'll never get it right.

One could argue that the legendary Britten has the same concept and had no problem's, but that was 20 years ago firstly, and secondly had a totaly different front. maybe something could Ducati try : a Hosack front suspension

[Kropotkin]

One could argue that the legendary Britten has the same concept and had no problem's, but that was 20 years ago firstly, and secondly had a totaly different front. maybe something could Ducati try : a Hosack front suspension

And the Britten didn't have the rigid Bridgestones to deal with. That's why I think the L-twin 1198 works, because it has a much softer front Pirelli to help get heat into the tires.

[JanBros]

One could argue that the legendary Britten has the same concept and had no problem's, but that was 20 years ago firstly, and secondly had a totaly different front. maybe something could Ducati try : a Hosack front suspension

And the Britten didn't have the rigid Bridgestones to deal with. That's why I think the L-twin 1198 works, because it has a much softer front Pirelli to help get heat into the tires.

yep , that to, but that isn't a fault in the design off the bike. that's a problem not being able to get the right tires for the bike. which is kind off strange in a prototype class . I know hy they introduced it, and at the time it looked like a good idea, but apparently it had some "unintended consequences"

since their bike has much less flex, less ridgid tires could take over some off the work now done bye the japanese frames.

[Kropotkin]

Dennis Noyes just tweeted that Ducati could run a twin spar chassis for 2012. Stressed it's just a rumor.

[9fingers]

Burgess/Rossi/Preziosi can do what they want , they'll never get it right.

One could argue that the legendary Britten has the same concept and had no problem's, but that was 20 years ago firstly, and secondly had a totaly different front. maybe something could Ducati try : a Hosack front suspension

Some good pics with the naked Britten: http://www.zxforums.com/forums/general- ... v1000.html


This is what I always hoped for the Ducati frameless concept to evolve into. When the front train issues appeared, they should've thought of alternative solutions. Girder-style/Hossak (they have a lot more flex then cylindrical/telescopic design) should've been tried by now, and ultimately a front swing-arm...

...but when they signed Rossi-Burgess, I lost all hope for something like this. A rider of Rossi's success, has no patience for developing such radical solutions.

[chc-pr]

...but when they signed Rossi-Burgess, I lost all hope for something like this. A rider of Rossi's success, has no patience for developing such radical solutions.

I have read every post, and I can't for the life of me understand what casued some of you to get so worked up abut my reply. I don't believe I was making comparisions with Rossi other than indirectly. What I was doing was trying to say that taking Gaureshi's comments at face value was not a good idea.

Right - now I'll say something that harks back to comments somewhere I can't recall about the carbon frameless idea ...

I think the No Factory rides for Rookies rule will kill off any radical developments (by any manufacturer) until it is revoked. I do NOT believe if Stoner went back to Ducati now he would be able to replicate what he did there before - he would be in the same boat as everyone else. I belileve he succeeded because he didn't know any better (in MotoGP). Even his LCR Honda was pretty similar in character I believe to the early Ducatis. For this reason alone, Ducati HAVE to go mainstream IMO - or they will never have future success.