Ducati goings on. Part 2.

[Cam D]

Ducati has a fixed budget, they could not pay Rossi's salary. Maybe the money comes to Rossi through Ducati via Marlboro, I don't how that works, but prior to the acquisition by Audi Ducati was a tiny little company by corporate standards. I don't think that Dorna is paying Rossi's salary either - they might be chipping in but they are not footing the bill. Yamaha was said to have required Rossi to bring a sponsor in order to return, and I believe it.

Where did you read Ducati have a fixed budget? I haven't read that Yamaha said Rossi could only come if he supplied a sponsor. I only saw it as speculation form Journos.
Just trying to find out what was fact and what is journalistic licence

[RatsMC]

Given those limitations, Ducati should have tried out a number of options with in-house trellis frames to get the engine position, wheelbase, CG etc sorted. Once they had that set, then do it in CF.

I don't get the hindsight is 20/20 argument, even newbies to the sport were asking what was going on with Ducati on 3-4 years ago...

The trellis frame represented far more limitations than the CF one ever did. Every one of them was different and getting two with the same characteristics was next to impossible.

Don't accuse me of the hindsight thing . As soon as the suggestion that they needed to drop the CF frame came up (when Stoner was still riding it) I've said there was no evidence that there was an inherent problem with the design or material. And then once Rossi joined and everyone was saying they needed a twinspar frame, I said that it would guarantee that they would be totally out of the competition for at least 2 years.

[RatsMC]

Ducati has a fixed budget, they could not pay Rossi's salary. Maybe the money comes to Rossi through Ducati via Marlboro, I don't how that works, but prior to the acquisition by Audi Ducati was a tiny little company by corporate standards. I don't think that Dorna is paying Rossi's salary either - they might be chipping in but they are not footing the bill. Yamaha was said to have required Rossi to bring a sponsor in order to return, and I believe it.

Do you have anything that supports any of this? Why would Yamaha leave? They just signed a contract with Lorenzo and and expecting a title next year. Who has ever suggested that they are leaving?

[Japhrodisiac]

Given those limitations, Ducati should have tried out a number of options with in-house trellis frames to get the engine position, wheelbase, CG etc sorted. Once they had that set, then do it in CF.

I don't get the hindsight is 20/20 argument, even newbies to the sport were asking what was going on with Ducati on 3-4 years ago...

The trellis frame represented far more limitations than the CF one ever did. Every one of them was different and getting two with the same characteristics was next to impossible.

Don't accuse me of the hindsight thing . As soon as the suggestion that they needed to drop the CF frame came up (when Stoner was still riding it) I've said there was no evidence that there was an inherent problem with the design or material. And then once Rossi joined and everyone was saying they needed a twinspar frame, I said that it would guarantee that they would be totally out of the competition for at least 2 years.

I don't suggest that it was a material problem (!), and have always said that CF wasn't directly the issue. After all, it's only a material - it can be made into a nice cereal bowl if that's what you want out of it. Where I do disagree with you is that design is an issue, a much bigger issue - a basic geometry/weight distribution/packaging problem which would better have been addressed by prototyping a number of frames first - they could have easily done the engine rotation iteration in a trellis, saving themselves a year of misery - then when you have the package that you need, make the CF final version. An obvious limitation of the engine - the CS (countershaft, not casey stoner) location would have come up quickly, then changes could have been made with new cases, rotated transmission etc.

Ducati's problems have been magnified by the snail-like pace in which they address them, as other teams keep rolling out changes as necessary, and Ducati is still working out 2009 era problems. Ducati's solution to chassis geometry issues for example are to try to refine the electronics, so that the riders notice it less. A series of bandaids over bandaids, when surgery was more appropriate.

Hector is still riding the same geometry as the '11 CF bike, just in an alloy frame. He's pretty much as fast as the other Ducatis. That shows that the bike has been up against it's current design limitations for a long time.

[Albert]

I think this thread has a lot of potential still to come!

It's beginning to look like the predicted change in "V" angle isn't going to happen - at least not this season - so we're left to ponder on the frame/chassis.

One of the reasons given for the alloy frame was that changes could be made more readily. I'm not getting into arguments regarding CF (huge untapped potential IMHO!) but I do see it from Ducati's point of view.
Unless you have a shop full of CF experts then alloy is an easier medium to change. (Weld this piece in - machine that piece out - re-drill this mounting hole etc etc)

Who's to say that once they have it perfected in alloy they won't reproduce it in CF??

[Japhrodisiac]

?????

How do you get from my criticism of the suggestion that Ducati "use the rest of the season as a series of tests" to that of making a strategic decision to not risk crashing as analogous?

By that standard anyone letting off the throttle would be "throwing the race" too. Its been very hot/dry here...careful, your strawman doesn't catch fire.

Sorry Joe, maybe I misunderstood, correct me if I'm wrong;

Japhrodisiac made the point that Ducati should concentrate on developing and testing for next year as they have a very good development line up at the moment that are not in the running for the championship.

You seemed to suggest that to do this would be throwing the race.

I defended Japhrodisiac's comment, saying that Ducati sacrificing ultimate performance in any given race in favour of long term development, was no more throwing a race than a rider sacrificing a possible race win and settling for second in the interest of their long term championship position. Both instances the shorter term (the race performance) is sacrificed in the longer term interest. And in both these instances despite perhaps not preforming to their ultimate potential, races are not being thrown.

Anyway, perhaps it wasn't the best analogy but leaving that aside I think my point still stands, I fail to see how a manufacturer in a prototype series saying 'OK this year is a lost cause, lets focus on next year using this year for developing and testing, and try to get our bike competitive for next season', is throwing a race...? If that were the case there would be a long history of manufacturers throwing races in MotoGP.

I'm not trying to start an argument I just thought your criticism of Japhrodisiac's point was a little left field.

Agree with Tom - they are all testing to some degree all the time, especially now given the testing limits imposed. Dani rode a whole new bike at Laguna, testing it live in a GP. Better to favour development at this point, which long term will improve Ducati's position on the track and therefore the show in general. It doesn't mean that they will be rolling around slowly, pitting every few laps.

Why not try to squeeze out every bit of advantage that you have whilst paying Rossi his millions? Putting him out on the same old stuff, and crashing as per Laguna, doesn't improve the show either.

[Gar]

Ducati has a fixed budget, they could not pay Rossi's salary. Maybe the money comes to Rossi through Ducati via Marlboro, I don't how that works, but prior to the acquisition by Audi Ducati was a tiny little company by corporate standards. I don't think that Dorna is paying Rossi's salary either - they might be chipping in but they are not footing the bill. Yamaha was said to have required Rossi to bring a sponsor in order to return, and I believe it.

Do you have anything that supports any of this? Why would Yamaha leave? They just signed a contract with Lorenzo and and expecting a title next year. Who has ever suggested that they are leaving?

Rossi needed a sponsor to return to Yamaha. You misunderstood me.

And people are saying, 'I have only read that in the press - do you have anything from the press to support it?' - what does that mean?

As far as Ducati's fixed budget, I've heard it repeatedly. Go back and read the 8,000 Preziosi interviews when Rossi left Yamaha, they were in there. I'm not going to re-read them all to get a quote!

[JoeKing]

?????

How do you get from my criticism of the suggestion that Ducati "use the rest of the season as a series of tests" to that of making a strategic decision to not risk crashing as analogous?

By that standard anyone letting off the throttle would be "throwing the race" too. Its been very hot/dry here...careful, your strawman doesn't catch fire.

Sorry Joe, maybe I misunderstood, correct me if I'm wrong;

Japhrodisiac made the point that Ducati should concentrate on developing and testing for next year as they have a very good development line up at the moment that are not in the running for the championship.

You seemed to suggest that to do this would be throwing the race.

I defended Japhrodisiac's comment, saying that Ducati sacrificing ultimate performance in any given race in favour of long term development, was no more throwing a race than a rider sacrificing a possible race win and settling for second in the interest of their long term championship position. Both instances the shorter term (the race performance) is sacrificed in the longer term interest. And in both these instances despite perhaps not preforming to their ultimate potential, races are not being thrown.

Anyway, perhaps it wasn't the best analogy but leaving that aside I think my point still stands, I fail to see how a manufacturer in a prototype series saying 'OK this year is a lost cause, lets focus on next year using this year for developing and testing, and try to get our bike competitive for next season', is throwing a race...? If that were the case there would be a long history of manufacturers throwing races in MotoGP.

I'm not trying to start an argument I just thought your criticism of Japhrodisiac's point was a little left field.

Agree with Tom - they are all testing to some degree all the time, especially now given the testing limits imposed. Dani rode a whole new bike at Laguna, testing it live in a GP. Better to favour development at this point, which long term will improve Ducati's position on the track and therefore the show in general. It doesn't mean that they will be rolling around slowly, pitting every few laps.

Why not try to squeeze out every bit of advantage that you have whilst paying Rossi his millions? Putting him out on the same old stuff, and crashing as per Laguna, doesn't improve the show either.

I look at racing from a very simplistic racer "when the green flag drops the BS stops" mentality. The idea of testing anything during a race is anathema to any real racer...going as fast as your equipment allows is the prime directive. A couple of weeks ago Stoner said something to the effect of..I go as fast as I can EVERY time he sits on the bike.

There is no nuance to it. Testing is merely foreplay, why would you waste the opportunity of riding around on the pinnacle of 2 wheeled motorsport "acquiring data" when you have 100,000+ people screaming encouragement & the fastest racers in the world next to you?

Racing is the point..testing is a necessary part not an end in itself. A company races not only with the expectation of winning. Having the brand identified with a racing heritage at the highest level reflects on their products. Admitting that they can't compete.."OK this year is lost"...isn't how racers/racing companies think. No racer starts a race thinking they don't have a chance of winning....that (unrealistic) optimism is what makes racers different. (Inspirational music playing in the background )

[Japhrodisiac]

But that's just it - racing is testing anyway. They find out that something wasn't right and they fix it for next time. At Laguna, Dani tested a whole new bike, the 2013 version. He seemed to do ok on it too. Testing is not a black and white thing as you seem to imply. It is ongoing. Every practice session including QP and race, they are all trying something out.

What has changed at Ducati, is that Rossi and likely JB will be leaving soon. Seems like a good time to get your money's worth and accelerate the development of next year's machine, as they now have a great 'testing' team in place. When Dovi arrives, unless they let him at all versions of the bike, he will be behind the curve.

[yzr750]

Seems like a good time to get your money's worth and accelerate the development of next year's machine, as they now have a great 'testing' team in When Dovi arrives, unless they let him at all versions of the bike, he will be behind the curve.

There is no evidence to support this stance. The support this ''great 'testing' team'' has had from Ducati has been far greater than Ducati has given any of their previous teams, yet the results have not shown any improvement.

[Cam D]

Burgess described the notion that Ducati’s 90-degree V-four is too long and bulky as “bunkum. The Honda is very close to a 90 degree. They told me the same nonsense when I went to Yamaha at the end of 2003. They said you’ll never win with an in-line four.”

http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20120814#pg17

[Gar]

Burgess described the notion that Ducati’s 90-degree V-four is too long and bulky as “bunkum. The Honda is very close to a 90 degree. They told me the same nonsense when I went to Yamaha at the end of 2003. They said you’ll never win with an in-line four.”

http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20120814#pg17

If that is true it negates about 25,000,000 internet posts in 3 sentences!

[Cam D]

[dave_m]

Burgess described the notion that Ducati’s 90-degree V-four is too long and bulky as “bunkum. The Honda is very close to a 90 degree. They told me the same nonsense when I went to Yamaha at the end of 2003. They said you’ll never win with an in-line four.”

http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20120814#pg17

If that is true it negates about 25,000,000 internet posts in 3 sentences!

I don't that it negates them, most arguments against the 90deg L are that it makes it harder for Ducati, especially with their limited resources. It's probably also seen as an easy fix to some of their problems.

[JanBros]

It's beginning to look like the predicted change in "V" angle isn't going to happen - at least not this season - so we're left to ponder on the frame/chassis.

One of the reasons given for the alloy frame was that changes could be made more readily. I'm not getting into arguments regarding CF (huge untapped potential IMHO!) but I do see it from Ducati's point of view.
Unless you have a shop full of CF experts then alloy is an easier medium to change. (Weld this piece in - machine that piece out - re-drill this mounting hole etc etc)

Who's to say that once they have it perfected in alloy they won't reproduce it in CF??

over a year ago, I translated an article on flex in the frame, and it was my believe that the shape of the front frame was to blame (too short, and a shape that wouldn't allow much flex), not the CF.
They have sorted that out now with the alu twin spar, but by no means they could have gotten it right at their first attempt. impossible. But still they are on the same frame as Sepang 1 ... (I even found it quite astonishing that the bikes didn't even leave Sepang and justed stayed there until Sepang 2, like nothing needed changing )
So they still need to sort out the frame.

And the same with the engine, I'm convinced there is too much weight at the back. I made myself a ZXR400/600 trackbike : a '89 ZXR400H with a ZZR600 engine dropped in it. the difference in weight between the engine's is hugh : the 400 I could easily put on the workbench myself, the ZZR I can't. The ZZR engine is also a lot bigger, and in the ZXR400 frame, it comes a lot more to the front than the 400 engine (which gives me some cooling problems because the exhausts are very close to the radiator, but that is besides the point). So there is a lot more weight on the front of the bike because of the engine, and I must admit : I have total faith in the front end (not the original, but a ZX6-R '04 front end). So much I don't even care about the front end and I can concentrate on the rear when cornering/going on the gas after it .
I definitly thinck Ducati should also work in that direction : moving the CoG to the front.

[Japhrodisiac]

Interesting stuff, JanBros. Nothing like a bit of good old fashioned mechanical grip to plant the front!

The CF Ducati suffered greatly simply by being non-adjustable. I suppose that the swingarm pivot height, wheelbase and steering head inserts were adjustable, but nothing in terms of engine placement. So that makes it '09, '10, '11 with the same engine in frame location, '12 still same for Barbera (in an alloy spar frame) and '12 with a rearwards rotation of the engine for Nicky and Vale. Not much in 4 seasons (not including design and testing).

I remember starting the previous version of this thread, at the 1st Sepang tests in '11, where all they brought was some triple clamps and a few other bits to test, and most of the stuff stayed in the truck. Amazing, the opportunity wasted...

[Hanuman]

Burgess described the notion that Ducati’s 90-degree V-four is too long and bulky as “bunkum. The Honda is very close to a 90 degree. They told me the same nonsense when I went to Yamaha at the end of 2003. They said you’ll never win with an in-line four.”

http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20120814#pg17

If that is true it negates about 25,000,000 internet posts in 3 sentences!

indeed.

But what was the question? Burgess' answer only refers to the angle.

More telling is that nowhere does he state what needs to be done nor does he point his finger at any element.
"Aggressive power delivery, pumping from the rear suspension, a lack of confidence-inspiring feel and a tendency towards understeer" Though that's the journo putting words in Rossi's mouth, they're hardly what I'd call workable feedback.

[Squidpuppet]

Burgess described the notion that Ducati’s 90-degree V-four is too long and bulky as “bunkum. The Honda is very close to a 90 degree. They told me the same nonsense when I went to Yamaha at the end of 2003. They said you’ll never win with an in-line four.”

http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20120814#pg17

So what IS the problem then, Mr. B.?

[mattology]

Burgess described the notion that Ducati’s 90-degree V-four is too long and bulky as “bunkum. The Honda is very close to a 90 degree. They told me the same nonsense when I went to Yamaha at the end of 2003. They said you’ll never win with an in-line four.”

http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20120814#pg17

So what IS the problem then, Mr. B.?

I'm no mr burgess but I think that what he's said in the last time around regarding the swingarm pivot, combined with the dual injectors, really does tell us a bit.

They can't get the weight where they need it to have a good balance back and forth on the weight transfer goign into and goin gout of the corners...

when you raise the countersprocket, the position of the instant center changes, by going farther towards the center of the vehicle, and changing the slope of the anti squat force vector coming from the contact patch to the instant center. the slope actually decreases, so you lose anti squat, meaning it has to be made up with by stiffening the rear on the shock and spring side of things. the stiffer shock and spring might let the tire slip easier this way, which means more careful electronics are needed, but when only one set of injectors are on the bike, the tip in / accelerator pump function of the injectors might not be smooth enough...

so it's once again a matter of weight balance... it might also be swingarm length as a result of the positioning of the engine still.

I don't like the carbon frame however, not from a monocoque one piece standpoint, simply because it is very difficult to move the weight around when you are set up like that without changing the rest of the geometry in the process... at least that's how i feel. Now if you had different length front ends, now you're playing with different airbox volumes and what not, unless you hold that all the same, and then to move the weight around, you have to disassemble the entire bike.....

[RedJet]

I don't think that Dorna is paying Rossi's salary either - they might be chipping in but they are not footing the bill. Yamaha was said to have required Rossi to bring a sponsor in order to return, and I believe it.

Do you have anything that supports any of this? Why would Yamaha leave? They just signed a contract with Lorenzo and and expecting a title next year. Who has ever suggested that they are leaving?

Rossi needed a sponsor to return to Yamaha. You misunderstood me.

And people are saying, 'I have only read that in the press - do you have anything from the press to support it?' - what does that mean?

It was only speculation in the press that Rossi had to bring sponsorship money to return to Yamaha, it was never a fact. Rossi, yesterday, in answering whether or not the speculation was true called it "Bullshit". He did not have to bring sponsorship money. Yamaha is paying his salary and it is, in his term, "fixed". He hopes that Yamaha is able to find a sponsor but it has nothing to do with him, his contract or his position in the team. So we can put that rumor to bed.

Oh, he did mention the talks Yamaha had with Monster but that was before he talked with Yamaha and again, nothing to do with him.

[Gar]

It will be interesting to see if the team has a title sponsor next season. Rossi mentioned something about it being possible that one bike would be in one color with the other different, but he thought that they would both be the same. That, to me, implies the probability of at least one bike carrying a sponsor other than Yamaha.

[mattology]

I'm really excited to see what happens with Dovi come Valencia. I wonder how many different things they're going to bring for him and Nicky to test.

[dave_m]

I'm really excited to see what happens with Dovi come Valencia. I wonder how many different things they're going to bring for him and Nicky to test.

Ducati have a test planned for Misano in September, hopefully some updates come out of that.

[motor]

Interesting...JB speak

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101889

[n8r]

You gotta figure Ducati is firing money at anyone with significant Japanese GP bike experience. Makes sense to try to retain JB even if Rossi isn't there...