CRT - The new prototypes

[Zaphod]

Could not have put it better.

I was thinking Honda have asked themselves "when is a sattelite team not a sattelite team ?....... Ahhhhh, when we call it a CRT team !"


So much for Suzuki and Ducati.

Looks like you said, Motot GP will be a two horse race, until Yamaha pulls out eventually. Leaving us with the premier class version of the Honda cup that Moto 2 is.......


Time for a group shot of the governing bodies, just to make us feel better.

[dave_m]

It sounds like this will be sold for less than the lease price of the satellite bikes, so it certainly won't be an exact clone of the RC213V. The factory prototype only idea won't work to keep the grids full, but if the factories will sell these at an affordable price then this may work with the CRT bikes.

[Gustav O]

I'd prefer a grid with app. twelve factory and satellite bikes filled up with customer RCVs and M1s than having the grid fillers we have know. The teams can stay but give them better weapons than FTR Kawasakis etc. As this would make the championsips somewhat more competitive and that is what GPs are about imo.
Only worry is that Ducati will bow out if they cant get better results.

[Sloth27]

I'd prefer a grid with app. twelve factory and satellite bikes filled up with customer RCVs and M1s than having the grid fillers we have know. The teams can stay but give them better weapons than FTR Kawasakis etc. As this would make the championsips somewhat more competitive and that is what GPs are about imo.
Only worry is that Ducati will bow out if they cant get better results.

Agreed. At least this might encourage Aprilia to pull their finger out and develop a decent engine for their entry. No matter what Honda does, people hate on them. I thought everyone wanted 'production racers' in the class that were reasonably priced and fairly competitive, ie potentially beat satellite bikes or even the factories on a good day?

I also think this is the type of bike Suzuki is developing and could go head to head with the Honda.

Anything has to be better than watching that PBM bike chatter itself to pieces...

[Domino]

Could not have put it better.

I was thinking Honda have asked themselves "when is a sattelite team not a sattelite team ?....... Ahhhhh, when we call it a CRT team !"


So much for Suzuki and Ducati.

Looks like you said, Motot GP will be a two horse race, until Yamaha pulls out eventually. Leaving us with the premier class version of the Honda cup that Moto 2 is.......


Time for a group shot of the governing bodies, just to make us feel better.

The whole CRT thing came about as a result of the factories being unwilling to produce a "customer bike" at a reasonable cost. Now the factories are going to produce the bike that Dorna has been demanding for several years? Seems like the clowns are pretty savvy to me.

[lennyzrx]

And we are back to square 1! Even before the new CRT class has a chance to settle and encourage new teams to find their feet, the big boys are entering the fray.

Honda can (and will) wipe the floor with their production racer. Imaging a slightly dumbed down RCV, then add 4 more litres of fuel and a larger engine allocation... They will have Ducati for breakfast never mind the poor CRT teams.

Im going to sound like a broken record but the only way to prevent the CRT's becoming the Darwinian 2 horse race between Honda and Yamaha, that MotoGP is at the moment, is to force Honda (and anyone else) to supply their bike and equal support to whomever wants it and at a reasonable price.

Without that crucial rule it will be a progressively more expensive arms race between the big guys, with their chosen teams dominating while the others drop out until there's no one else left and the bikes are so expensive not even the dominating teams are sustainable.

There is nothing stoping Honda from providing an exact copy of their current RCV to an independent team to race in the CRT class! And that is where is will rapidly head if Yamaha joins the production racer bandwagon. A Bike arms race only 2 can survive in.

this about covers it. Aprilla will have to do some homework now! with the extra engine alotment, xtra fuel ... I can see this honda/crt bike doing well right out of the box!

[sailor22]

The Honda Production Racer is going to be the new TZ. This one has the potential to be a game changer. If you long for the days when almost every bike on the grid was a TZ .......

[tom]

Exactly, I'm not arguing against the CRT's and I'm all for a full grid. Take the following scenario;

Honda produce this production racing bike (let's call it a PRB). Which is essentially a 2012 RCV albeit without some of the more expensive accessories but with 4 more litres of fuel. This bike is provided to Grasini who run it with say RDP as a CRT bike. It is not unrealistic to imagine Randy smokes the field of CRT's and gets the better of the Ducati's most of the time. The following year Ducati either quits or decides to run their next gen of bikes as CRT's with Pramac and Cardon. Providing essentially the same full prototype MotoGP bike that they were going to race themselves to their satellite teams with the magic 4 more litres of fuel. The Pramac Ducati with Rossi piloting it is now making Hondas PRB look ordinary and even beating the Yamaha and Honda factory MotoGP bikes regularly.

Honda ups the anti for the following year doing the same as Ducati and providing what would have been considered a full MotoGP spec bike to Grasini with the additional 4L of fuel, whilst continuing to provide a second tier PRB to other CRT's whom are now hopelessly outclassed in their own class with zero possibility of being able to be competitive.

Yamaha likewise see the writing on the wall and provide Tech3 with their MotoGP spec bike + extra fuel and release Lorenzo as a bonus. Both Honda and Yamaha drop their factory teams, CRT teams start dropping like flies, Ducati now uncompetitive again leave the following year and essentially we are left with the Honda favoured, Repsol CRT team, fighting with the Yamaha favoured, Tech 3 CRT team for all the podiums every race and a few other CRT's running on the second rate PRB's.

Back to square 1!

Rossi would win the championship this year if he was sent to a CRT team with his current Bike and 4L more of fuel every race. And there's nothing in the rules that says Ducati can't do this.

[tom]

As Zaph so succinctly put it, 'numptys'!

If Honda want to, they can make this PRB faster than their MotoGP bike. And as sure as night follows day that's what will happen if Ducati, Yamaha or Suzuki also decide to make a PRB.

[ieism]

They could do that, but the other manufacturers could claim the engine if they want to.

[tom]

They won't. Not a hope in hell that Honda, Yamaha or Ducati are going to loose that much face claiming each others engines and they all know that.

The claiming rule was to prevent new entrants going all 'factory' and producing a full prototype and racing it in a factory team disguised as a private CRT team.

[dave_m]

Honda isn't suddenly going to start selling factory level RC213V bikes way below cost, so I'm not sure what's not to like about this news. These bikes should be more competitive than the current CRT bikes and just as affordable, both of which are positive developments.

[Gustav O]

Honda isn't suddenly going to start selling factory level RC213V bikes way below cost, so I'm not sure what's not to like about this news. These bikes should be more competitive than the current CRT bikes and just as affordable, both of which are positive developments.

I agree. this is positive for the class - especially if this means Yamaha steps up to the plate and does a similar machine. They will be better than the CRTs but not as good as the full factory bikes - just as it should be unless you like a one make series. The Japanese pride will mean they won´t claim them from each other either.

[yzr750]

The Honda Production Racer is going to be the new TZ. This one has the potential to be a game changer. If you long for the days when almost every bike on the grid was a TZ .......

Totally disagree, if it's going to cost $40k and be available to everyone, then yes, it will be like the TZ, and we will see grids full of them at club level, and riders will be able to ride them at club, national, international and GP level.
But it won't be, so it will be nothing like a TZ.

[Gar]

The Honda Production Racer is going to be the new TZ. This one has the potential to be a game changer. If you long for the days when almost every bike on the grid was a TZ .......

Totally disagree, if it's going to cost $40k and be available to everyone, then yes, it will be like the TZ, and we will see grids full of them at club level, and riders will be able to ride them at club, national, international and GP level.
But it won't be, so it will be nothing like a TZ.

And that's $40k in today's dollars, because TZs were way under that. The Honda will take a solid sponsorship package a good team. A rider and wrench could manage a TZ.

[tom]

DaveM of coarse they will. They are doing it now and they will continue to do so. However they won't completely disregard the money side of things. They will mitigate their losses by either providing only to a select few or only giving top spec to a select few and cheapies to the rest.

Gustav that's right they will sit somewhere between the yam and Honda MotoGP bikes and the CRT's. Which will mean the imminent departure of rest of the CRT manufactures whom will never be able to make their superbike based bikes compete with a MotoGP based Honda.

The whole point of The CRT's was to encourage more teams and factory's to join by creating a class where they don't have to try to compete with the big 2 using full prototypes.

Unfortunately Dorna neglected to exclude the use of full prototypes or ensure that if they were allowed that they would be provided at a reasonable price and available to all. Now it may be that the Honda PRB will be a very dumbed down RCV and that it will be provided cheap to everyone however that will only remain the case whilst Honda have no real competition in the CRT class. As soon as Ducati or Yam join the party then it's an unsustainable arms race.

I really like the idea of the big 3 producing production racers however only with some restrictions on cost and no restrictions on availability. In fact I see that as the only sustainable model for MotoGP.

[sailor22]

It is a very different era. No one shows up at a GP with a wrench and a rider today and those days are never coming back.
This Honda is a prody racer that a lot of smaller teams will see as a great opportunity the same way a lot of small outfits saw the TZ as a great way to go racing in the big show.
It took a long time until the TZ started showing up on club race grids and as I recall a lot of riders and wrenches at the club level were overmatched. It didn't suffer fools and the uninformed lightly.

The Honda Production Racer is going to be the new TZ. This one has the potential to be a game changer. If you long for the days when almost every bike on the grid was a TZ .......

Totally disagree, if it's going to cost $40k and be available to everyone, then yes, it will be like the TZ, and we will see grids full of them at club level, and riders will be able to ride them at club, national, international and GP level.
But it won't be, so it will be nothing like a TZ.

And that's $40k in today's dollars, because TZs were way under that. The Honda will take a solid sponsorship package a good team. A rider and wrench could manage a TZ.

[Zaphod]

DaveM of coarse they will. They are doing it now and they will continue to do so. However they won't completely disregard the money side of things. They will mitigate their losses by either providing only to a select few or only giving top spec to a select few and cheapies to the rest.

Gustav that's right they will sit somewhere between the yam and Honda MotoGP bikes and the CRT's. Which will mean the imminent departure of rest of the CRT manufactures whom will never be able to make their superbike based bikes compete with a MotoGP based Honda.

The whole point of The CRT's was to encourage more teams and factory's to join by creating a class where they don't have to try to compete with the big 2 using full prototypes.

So, like Moto2....here comes the Honda cup ? There is no way on god's earth Honda are going to allow anyone to "claim" one of their engines.

Not unless every bike on the grid is Honda powered, and even then....you can claim it and bolt it in.......but you can't open it up.

[dave_m]

Claiming won't even matter as Honda will be selling, not leasing these, so of course the customers will be opening them up. These won't even be up to the spec of the current Honda satellite bikes, so there's no reason other OEM's and private builders won't be able to compete.

[Japhrodisiac]

RDP+HRC PRB(RS)-ART CRT=!

CEII+YSP PRB(TZ)-STR CRT=!

[Zaphod]

Claiming won't even matter as Honda will be selling, not leasing these, so of course the customers will be opening them up. These won't even be up to the spec of the current Honda satellite bikes, so there's no reason other OEM's and private builders won't be able to compete.

Believe me, I am trying real hard to remain positive. For the life of me, all of this makes no bloody sense. Why the hell would anyone aiming for a GP ride want to run around on an up spec superbike ?

I have tried to see the sense, and sometimes even believed what Dorna is saying. If all the factory prototypes are gone, and it becomes a grid of CRT's.....what the hell is the point of MotoGP ?!

At Silverstone a CRT lapped at 2:06

Last year the WSBK's were around the 2:05's

I can't ever see a CRT being more than 1 or maybe 2 seconds quicker than a Factory WSBK.


I loved the idea of bigger, more competitive grids.........but this is starting to look like Dorna's dumbest move yet.

At best, CRT's and MotoGP look like being the new version of the old F1 class that used to run around in the Suzuka 8 hr.........minus the factory input.

[dave_m]

I have tried to see the sense, and sometimes even believed what Dorna is saying. If all the factory prototypes are gone, and it becomes a grid of CRT's.....what the hell is the point of MotoGP ?!

At Silverstone a CRT lapped at 2:06

Last year the WSBK's were around the 2:05's

I can't ever see a CRT being more than 1 or maybe 2 seconds quicker than a Factory WSBK.

Based on that, I think the CRT bikes are already faster than WSBK bikes, as 3 CRT bikes did 2:05s this year, and conditions weren't as good during the MotoGP weekend. Moto2 bikes are at least 2 seconds ahead of the WSS bikes at Silverstone, so I'd be surprised CRT bikes didn't end up doing 2:04s or better if the weather is favorable next year. (Don't forget the WSBK bikes have the same amount of fuel for 2 less laps.)

I'm not sure the CRT bikes only being 2 seconds ahead of the WSBK bikes is a problem either, based on the Honda/Yamaha satellite times from this year. I don't know exactly how the only CRT proposal is going to work, but that's a separate issue. I see these bikes as a definite way to keep the series going and the grids full.

[ieism]

We'll see about this Honda proddy racer when it gets there. Moto2 is already a Honda cup, but it's a really good one. Would you rather watch WSS or Moto2 right now?

You'd want a bike that would be capable to surprise sometimes with the odd podium. If there is no chance of finishing higher than 9th like the CRT's, I don't see the benefit of a Honda customer bike.

[oldboyonrgv]

Err well for comparison - Formula1 is in effect CRT (only a couple of factories actually 'make' the whole car) doesnt seem to do them any harm...
Ohh yes and who is a CRT is defined by DORNA so Honda, Yamaha,etc cannot do as is suggested previously in this thread because they will simply be booted back to full factory status by DORNA, If any of them do make production bikes nice and cheap then go ohhhh, just like the TZ days as mentioned previously, and the races will be more about good engineers and riders than about corperate spending - sadly that aint gonna happen....

By the way if you check the facts regarding Motorcycle Grand Prix you will see that historicaly the grids were made up of production bikes/specials/ and works teams its only recently that its been all so called prototypes.

So in short CRT (They should have called it something different!!) is an attempt at getting the sport back to what it should be and I applaud it

[TwoStroke Institute]

HRC's new RS/RC 30/45/51 is just what MotoGP needs right now, all Dorna have to do is stop/stamp out the "A Kit" stuff. Which was handed out on a very selective basis even HRC's overpriced gearbox was priced so no satellite team could afford it.If there is electronic controls to stop an extra 1000rpm by mouse click that's a good thing to