Stoner VS Rossi, the never ending debate

[Albert]

Attack Casey's racing statistics all you want (good luck with that one too), but please don't crap on about his character or who he is.. because you seriously have NFI. Aussies relate to him much better because a lot of our sporting heroes are just like him.

Professional, and only worried about competing. Not trying to sell T-shirts.

Nice tale - it's always good to read something like that. It makes these guys more "grounded" --- but if you don't want Casey to be genaralised by a badly perceived showing, which is poorly accentuated by TV, then by the same token you ought not tar Rossi with that self same brush!
We've been there, in the thick of things in Tavullia, Mugello, Misano etc, etc, and a great many misconceptions are written about Valentino based on his public persona!
(which is dissimilar to the private individual!)

[Cam D]

I know that... I am simply saying that generally, the bandwagon is 'glory supporters'... even when Stoner is winning, he doesn't get this.

Exactly. And that's because the masses are mostly attracted by celebrity status and not by performance. There are many knowledgable followers of Stoner who appreciate his skills on the track and care nothing of his performance off the track. They are fans of precision riding, not of off bike entertainment value. They know that as self evident and have no need for fan paraphernalia. And to be forthright, I love Stoner. I love Rossi too, but only when he is legs up on two wheels.

A classic example and an intersting bandwagon was Marco S. Had was just starting to perform in MotoGP and in reality had achieved very little compared to Casey, but he had a huge following and I believe most importantly, had always been a controversial rider. Unsurprisingly many vocal Rossi supporters clung to him as the "Anti-Stoner" figure when Rossi failed to produce results. So much of this support seemed to be promoted by the motorcyling press and the sheep just followed along. The guy had a shit load of talent but earned a lot of his hero status for all the wrong reasons.

[Cam D]

Attack Casey's racing statistics all you want (good luck with that one too), but please don't crap on about his character or who he is.. because you seriously have NFI. Aussies relate to him much better because a lot of our sporting heroes are just like him.

Professional, and only worried about competing. Not trying to sell T-shirts.

Nice tale - it's always good to read something like that. It makes these guys more "grounded" --- but if you don't want Casey to be genaralised by a badly perceived showing, which is poorly accentuated by TV, then by the same token you ought not tar Rossi with that self same brush!
We've been there, in the thick of things in Tavullia, Mugello, Misano etc, etc, and a great many misconceptions are written about Valentino based on his public persona!
(which is dissimilar to the private individual!)

You make a really good point Albert, and as I said above, the motorcycling press has so much to answer to IMO. So much biased print, and so many fans stirred up by racing web sites. One site blatantly puts up misleading head lines, and their forum goes wild! Huge hit rates but the content of discussion is extremely low grade. Start reading and you get sucked in the same as watching a bad soapie! You are waiting for it to get better but it never does. It also seems to promote self-apointed racing guru's that can't be questioned. If they just reported the racing without the opinionated bullshite, I don't think we would have anywhere near as much of the "them vs us" going on.

[Albert]

A make a really good point Albert, and as I said above, the motorcycling press has so much to answer to IMO. So much biased print, and so many fans stirred up by racing web sites. One site blatantly puts up misleading head lines, and their forum goes wild! Huge hit rates but the content of discussion is extremely low grade. Start reading and you get sucked in the same as watching a bad soapie! You are waiting for it to get better but it never does. It also seems to promote self-apointed racing guru's that can't be questioned. If they just reported the racing without the opinionated bullshite, I don't think we would have anywhere near as much of the "them vs us" going on.

Totally agree Cam!
Perfect example of certain factions of the press trying to increase hit rates!
Rossi himself distrusts the press, some of the Italian press in particular, unless he knows them personally.

One thing that I'm delighted about is seeing Casey on Twitter.
When you read some of his "Tweets" you get a better idea of his personality than the (sometimes badly edited) TV footage shows!

I've enjoyed reading some of the banter!

[Squidpuppet]

but it begs the question, why hasn't there ever been a Stoner bandwagon? Surely it takes someone special, someone like Rossi, to create this?.

I think you may have missed the point. Bandwagon isnt exactly meant as a compliment.

I know that... I am simply saying that generally, the bandwagon is 'glory supporters'... even when Stoner is winning, he doesn't get this.

People tend to gravitate toward those to whom they can relate.

[Rick650]

There has a been a lot of discussion of Rossi v Stoner but I have not read significant comments on differences in their riding styles.
The common perception seems to be that Rossi is best at corner entry and Stoner is better at exit (but has claimed that he has significantly improved his entry)
Some footage of Rossi on the M1 is unbelievable, passing people late on the brakes while seeming to drift inwards to hit an apex he had no right to.
Similarly the slow motion of Stoner on his ear and hard on the kerb with the rear wheel gently starting to spin are incredible.
The issue of where (and speculationas to why) they are uniquely fast interests me far more than discussion of results or personalities.

[TwoStroke Institute]

You would have to say Ducati and Marlboro really short changed Stoner in the PR dept. Ever since the lolly water logo appeared on his cap. the charm offensive began. The Red Bull PR dept must view Stoner as 'marketable' in the English speaking word and the image softening techniques seem to be winning over even the tough UK audience. The twitter thing has blossomed and included a great colloqualism "yesty" when downtime at Sepang saw Crutchlow , Edwards and Stoner engage in some hefty piss taking.

[JanBros]

There has a been a lot of discussion of Rossi v Stoner but I have not read significant comments on differences in their riding styles.
The common perception seems to be that Rossi is best at corner entry and Stoner is better at exit (but has claimed that he has significantly improved his entry)

it is the M1 that is better at corner entry, not Rossi. And it is the same M1 that made Rossi "less good" on corner exit. all because of the counter-rotating cranck

[Squidpuppet]

There has a been a lot of discussion of Rossi v Stoner but I have not read significant comments on differences in their riding styles.
The common perception seems to be that Rossi is best at corner entry and Stoner is better at exit (but has claimed that he has significantly improved his entry)

it is the M1 that is better at corner entry, not Rossi. And it is the same M1 that made Rossi "less good" on corner exit. all because of the counter-rotating cranck

I dont think that is totally accurate. Rossi has always been a very good "stuff it up the inside-late braker" guy. 125s, 250s, 500s, RCVs, the lot of them, not just the M1.

[DJH]

Rossi has always been a very good "stuff it up the inside-late braker" guy.

Not always in the positive sense either.

[Gustav O]

Not always in the positive sense either.

You really don´t like him do you? The Sete incident is clearly very dubious but other than that it is not many unfair moves during his career, imo.

[sir_nj]

The Sete incident is clearly very dubious but other than that it is not many unfair moves during his career, imo.

Personally I would have stripped him of the win for that but maybe that is just me. I left the rest of your comment in because I can't really fault it. His re-entry in the corkscrew forcing Stoner to brake and move out was accidental and not considered an issue by the race committee which surprised me but given no one fell off and in fact there was no contact is why I would guess they ignored it. His sneaking up to Lorenzo and squeezing him out to the line under the tunnel in 2010 was IMO not dangerous but most certainly designed to provoke Lorenzo, and boy didn't it! Other than that he is a rider who is prepared to put himself and the bike in a position where another rider has to make a choice about what line he is to take. For me that IS part of racing.

[DJH]

Not always in the positive sense either.

You really don´t like him do you?

Yeah, it's funny how it has come about actually. I have cheered for Vale plenty in the past. He brought so much media attention to the sport, made some art-like races with his competitors, and has unquestioned talent.

The further I delved into the sport though the more I disliked the bloke. His attitude towards his competitors, general bad sportsmanship, and some of his moves on track leave alot to be desired.

I am a Ducati fan through and through (but loudly cheer for a certain Repsol bike none the less), and I really believe that this Ducati move has done justice to a lot of petty politics Vale has thrown up since 2007. Put simply, he can no longer question the pedigree of rider he is up against in Jorge and Casey. He has tried throwing his toys out of the pram, blaming tyres, blaming bikes, blaming everything but himself - and I would have LOVED to have seen his face inside of his helmet when he threw his leg over that Duck for the first time. Uccio's face said plenty, but seeing Rossi's would have been the golden ticket. The dent his ego would have taken when he realised what a shitbox Stoner was riding (and beating him) on would have sent his mind reeling. The fact that his 'unquestioned' developmental skills have apparently been left at other manufacturers somehow is the cherry on top.

It's a bit of tall poppy syndrome I'm sure. I'm not hiding from the fact that my thoughts seem a bit spiteful. But in saying that, so were Valentino's.

He has been blessed with the absolute forefront of technology throughout his career. The best bikes, a team with enough credentials to get what they want in a timely fashion.. and to see him now sitting on the other side of the fence for once - Preziosi - "Yes, we understand that you want it NOW.. but you can't have it until May.." - it must hurt. But why should I/we/anyone care just because it's Rossi?

Go and ask a Casey Stoner from 06-10. Ask a Depuniet. Ask an Abraham. Ask a Crutchlow. Hell.. even ask Ducati's nominated test rider for the past year Nicky Hayden. None of these guys get what they want when they want it. But they quietly plug away anyway and try to get the best result possible.

Instead, Valentino throws the manufacturer under the bus when he doesn't get his way.

I just don't like that spiteful play. I don't like comments like "Casey just doesn't ride it hard enough" or "We'd have the thing fixed in no time" or "It was just the Bridgestones" or now its "How good the Honda is" etc etc.

Fuck hey, I haven't really ranted like this in a long time.. but that's pretty much the crux of it.

Let the richy little bastard suffer for awhile. Let him see how the poor kids roll (or the rich kids on shit bikes in the case of Abraham)

[motor]

So...are you an Aussie?

[tom]

DJH, you certainly hit the nail on the head your journey from Rossi supporter to not liking the man mirror mine exactly, that is up until the point last year when he went to Casey's garage and apologised for taking him out. I think (like you) that Vale didn't realise how good he had it but for me that incident indicated that Vale's attitude had turned a corner. The old Rossi would have done nothing but rub the incident in Casey's face, perhaps making the a smug remark or saying that's just racing, perhaps even a wheelie across the line like he did to Sete, however the new Rossi was so embarrassed he couldn't bring himself remove his helmet and he went straight to Casey to apologise. So from there I reset my opinion of Rossi and started to judge him from that moment forward.

I'm not sure either that his recent comments about the Honda being so good and supposedly belittling Casey's 2011 championship have not been taken out of context and twisted in the same manor as Casey's always have. I think a lot of it is media hype.

[DJH]

I probably should have been laying down on a chair whilst ranting like that but I digress..

I love my bike racing, don't get me wrong. But I'll be damned if I can be as objective as I'd like to be.

[Kropotkin]

Maybe the Italian is better than the Australian. By which I mean Gabbarini is better than Burgess.




(Standing well back waiting for the explosion...)

[lebowski]

I have to hand it to the person who sensibly came up with the idea of using this thread as a place to vent. It's entertaining to say the least. So long as it doesn't infect the other threads it's all good fun for me.

[TheFamousEccles]

Maybe the Italian is better than the Australian. By which I mean Gabbarini is better than Burgess.




(Standing well back waiting for the explosion...)

[lebowski]

Oh, and for what it's worth, I suspect Gabbarini is a genius (along with the rest of the crew)

[Tourn46]

Maybe the Italian is better than the Australian. By which I mean Gabbarini is better than Burgess.

(Standing well back waiting for the explosion...)

Couldn't disagree more Krop, Stoner's hyper-sensitive throttle control, ability to back a bike into a corner and slide control on the exit is the only reason as to why he has achieved the little bit of success we've seen.

It leaves me to believe nothing except that Gabbarini is probably a hinderance rather than a benefit within Stoner's team. Afterall, Stoner lived in a caravan.

Burgess, however, single handedly welded together the M1 frame on Yamaha's behalf, later on moulded the Bridgstones on a Saturday night himself and is totally responsible for any success that the overrated Valentino Rossi has ever had.

Thus, the Australians are always better than the Italians

[lebowski]

Come on Tourn, it's a colonial thing with you isn't it?

[Kropotkin]

Maybe the Italian is better than the Australian. By which I mean Gabbarini is better than Burgess.

(Standing well back waiting for the explosion...)

Couldn't disagree more Krop, Stoner's hyper-sensitive throttle control, ability to back a bike into a corner and slide control on the exit is the only reason as to why he has achieved the little bit of success we've seen.

It leaves me to believe nothing except that Gabbarini is probably a hinderance rather than a benefit within Stoner's team. Afterall, Stoner lived in a caravan.

Burgess, however, single handedly welded together the M1 frame on Yamaha's behalf, later on moulded the Bridgstones on a Saturday night himself and is totally responsible for any success that the overrated Valentino Rossi has ever had.

Thus, the Australians are always better than the Italians

That's really rather witty....

I am now pondering the role caravans play in developing throttle skill...

[eddahenry]

Maybe the Italian is better than the Australian. By which I mean Gabbarini is better than Burgess.

(Standing well back waiting for the explosion...)

Couldn't disagree more Krop, Stoner's hyper-sensitive throttle control, ability to back a bike into a corner and slide control on the exit is the only reason as to why he has achieved the little bit of success we've seen.

It leaves me to believe nothing except that Gabbarini is probably a hinderance rather than a benefit within Stoner's team. Afterall, Stoner lived in a caravan.

Burgess, however, single handedly welded together the M1 frame on Yamaha's behalf, later on moulded the Bridgstones on a Saturday night himself and is totally responsible for any success that the overrated Valentino Rossi has ever had.

Thus, the Australians are always better than the Italians

That's really rather witty....

I am now pondering the role caravans play in developing throttle skill...

Pfft the poms will always have a joke towards us Aussies
they still cant get over the fact they sent or the criminals to Australia and left all the good folk in England
Got that one backwards in 1788

[Tourn46]

I am now pondering the role caravans play in developing throttle skill...

Opening the valve on a gas bottle is just like winding open the throttle of a Desmosedici, or so I've heard.

These all inclusive, hotel holidays that Vale goes on isn't helping... if he'd come back down to Earth, hitch up a Caravan to the back of his Impreza and head down to Cornwall with the Caravan Club, he'd be on pole position come Qatar.