2012 MotoGP Round 1 - Qatar

[Gustav O]

I am not saying that I believe MM has special engines, BUT, his top speed was low because he was always following and deliberately sitting up to slow down and playing mind games with Iannone etc on the straight.

The top speeds at motogp.com are for the whole event and he didn´t sit up all the time.
He isn´t dominating in top speed but gets out of the turns well, is small and tucks in very well and accelerates better than most of them.

[Squidpuppet]

Neither you nor I know exactly what went into making that motorcycle... maybe Rossi didn't get what he asked for?

I'm not saying Rossi should lay it on thick, but at the end of the day he is in it to win it. Are you suggesting that he just hides his frustrations and plods around in 10th place?

I think judging by Ducati's previous, they NEED to be pushed and if it requires going public then so be it.

The bike is crap. I wont argue that. Ducatis PREVIOUS (acknowledged as wrong) behavior is moot at this point. My point is, Ducati have been busting their ass TRYING to make a better bike. IMO, that means they are holding up their end of the partnership.

He has every right to FEEL frustrated. He has a right to vent as well. But throwing your partner under the bus when they are trying is pretty low behavior. If Ducati were telling Rossi to visit a shrink, I'd feel differently. But the fact is they have made MANY significant changes to the bike and are still in a constant state of development in an effort to give him what he wants. They have come up short evidently, but not for lack of trying.

It would be like a football player telling a journalist that "We could win more games if our Goalee didnt suck." What good does that do for team moral? Does it make the goalee magically better?

I know he is unhappy plodding around midfield. Thats 100% understandable. How he conducts himself during these times MAY play a big part in how he defines his own legacy.

[Squidpuppet]

I am not saying that I believe MM has special engines, BUT, his top speed was low because he was always following and deliberately sitting up to slow down and playing mind games with Iannone etc on the straight.

The top speeds at motogp.com are for the whole event and he didn´t sit up all the time.
He isn´t dominating in top speed but gets out of the turns well, is small and tucks in very well and accelerates better than most of them.

I was ONLY talking about the race. He played cat and mouse on the straight almost every lap. Almost, not all.

[Gustav O]

I was ONLY talking about the race. He played cat and mouse on the straight almost every lap. Almost, not all.

I just wanted to point out that Marquez during the whole week end didn´t have a top speed advantage. He played cat and mouse a few times while in the slip stream where you have two options - try to pass or sit up.

[Squidpuppet]

I was ONLY talking about the race. He played cat and mouse on the straight almost every lap. Almost, not all.

I just wanted to point out that Marquez during the whole week end didn´t have a top speed advantage. He played cat and mouse a few times while in the slip stream where you have two options - try to pass or sit up.

You know whats really telling? Look at his top speeds for his whole race, then look at the lap where he (needed to) passed Luthi for the win. WAY faster than all his previous laps and he did it without slipstreaming.

I dont think he has a special engine. He's just so tiny and weighs so little....

[Gustav O]

Where do you find that info?

[Nachlauf]

http://resources.motogp.com/files/resul ... 1_d5acbd76

The last column, although I have no clue as to wether the speed given there is at the line or in the speedtrap.

edit: wait, on 2nd thought it has to be in the speed trap, because how else would they reach 170+ within 3 meters on lap 1?

[Gustav O]

http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/2012/QAT/Moto2/RAC/Analysis.pdf?v1_d5acbd76

The last column, although I have no clue as to wether the speed given there is at the line or in the speedtrap.

Thanks, must be blind as I looked at that page as well.

[Squidpuppet]

Where do you find that info?

Motogp.com results/analysis for the numbers. I rewatched the end of the race to be sure my memory was right about NOT slipstreamimg Luthi. MM was behind him at the beginning, but not enough to serve a purpose. Then he just pulled next to him an accelerated past. He didnt blow past Tom by any means though, just gradually.

[Nachlauf]

Clicking through the documents I just realized, that Petrucci managed to improve his speeds to around 300 kph for the race. He was still over 10 kph down on speed though. Poor guy, must be tough for him to fight for positions like that.

[skid11]

Marquez has talent but that was a dirty move last lap
Calculating rider but will get found out when he moves up.

[Squidpuppet]

Marquez has talent but that was a dirty move last lap
Calculating rider but will get found out when he moves up.

The frustrating thing for me is that he has enough talent to win without doing that kinda stuff.

[carty]

Nothing wrong with Marquez's pass IMO. Every time he overtook someone on the straight he went up the inside and then cut right out to the line before turning in- he'd done it to Iannone two or three times. I think Marquez thought he was ahead of Luthi when he cut out to the line but Luthi tried to outbrake him and stayed level. A hard but fair pass.

[JanBros]

Nothing wrong with Marquez's pass IMO. Every time he overtook someone on the straight he went up the inside and then cut right out to the line before turning in- he'd done it to Iannone two or three times. I think Marquez thought he was ahead of Luthi when he cut out to the line but Luthi tried to outbrake him and stayed level. A hard but fair pass.

when you outbrake someone on the inside of a turn, you don't move back to the outside. You know the possibility is there that the other guy is till there, and you also know you have the inside line s othe other one can't turn in unless you do to -> you just stay on your line. It's something everybody that rides on a race track (whether it's actually racing or just for fun) knows or should know.

MM can say what he wants that he thought he'd passed him, he is still at fault. "thought" is not good enough.

[tom]

Nothing wrong with Marquez's pass IMO. Every time he overtook someone on the straight he went up the inside and then cut right out to the line before turning in- he'd done it to Iannone two or three times. I think Marquez thought he was ahead of Luthi when he cut out to the line but Luthi tried to outbrake him and stayed level. A hard but fair pass.

So Luthi shouldn't try to out brake him and stay level?

[Squidpuppet]

Nothing wrong with Marquez's pass IMO. Every time he overtook someone on the straight he went up the inside and then cut right out to the line before turning in- he'd done it to Iannone two or three times. I think Marquez thought he was ahead of Luthi when he cut out to the line but Luthi tried to outbrake him and stayed level. A hard but fair pass.

So Luthi shouldn't try to out brake him and stay level?

I just rewatched the super slow mo version and Luthi actually brakes slightly before MM. He actually brakes when MM swings over towards him.

I dont understand the people who say Luthi should have just surrenderd his position. He had the right to defend his piece of real estate without being forcably evicted.

[tom]

Nothing wrong with Marquez's pass IMO. Every time he overtook someone on the straight he went up the inside and then cut right out to the line before turning in- he'd done it to Iannone two or three times. I think Marquez thought he was ahead of Luthi when he cut out to the line but Luthi tried to outbrake him and stayed level. A hard but fair pass.

So Luthi shouldn't try to out brake him and stay level?

I just rewatched the super slow mo version and Luthi actually brakes slightly before MM. He actually brakes when MM swings over towards him.

I dont understand the people who say Luthi should have just surrenderd his position. He had the right to defend his piece of real estate without being forcably evicted.

Exactly! its absurd. The three arguments in defence of MM all hold no water, 1.Luthi should have braked harder and switched to the inside, 2.Luthi should not have tried to defend his position and 3.MM thought he was clear of Luthi so it was ok. 1 and 2 are absurd and 3 is irrelevant. Shit move whether deliberate or not.

[Cam D]

[Rossi is a racer who throws his leg over a bike to win. He is demonstrating that... and I am glad he did it.

We are in disagreement and I can live with that.

I see it as a partnership where both sides have to give their best efforts. What are the positives drawn from publicly disrespecting or insulting your partner when they come up short, despite their best effort? Serious question Tourn.

Probably have to agree with what you've been saying. MotoGP is a business. The riders are paid a huge amount of money to ride for an established brand name. While under contract it is poor form to publicly bag out your employer for any reason. Try doing that in the private sector! I don't like it when teams bag their rider either. Wait until the contracts finished, and then start swining the handbags about. jmo

[lebowski]

when you outbrake someone on the inside of a turn, you don't move back to the outside. You know the possibility is there that the other guy is till there, and you also know you have the inside line s othe other one can't turn in unless you do to -> you just stay on your line. It's something everybody that rides on a race track (whether it's actually racing or just for fun) knows or should know.

MM can say what he wants that he thought he'd passed him, he is still at fault. "thought" is not good enough.

Exactly ^

[dave_m]

The bike is crap. I wont argue that. Ducatis PREVIOUS (acknowledged as wrong) behavior is moot at this point. My point is, Ducati have been busting their ass TRYING to make a better bike. IMO, that means they are holding up their end of the partnership.

I'm not sure it means Ducati have changed if they still haven't delivered a competitive bike. Whether it's because they aren't listening, aren't understanding, aren't trying, aren't capable or aren't executing, it's all the same in the end. Hayden isn't going to speak up, that's not his style, and it's now looking like Ducati won't be competitive until 2013 at the earliest. Why wouldn't Rossi speak up?

And Ducati isn't looking good here, they've gone from Stoner saying they didn't want to do the necessary upgrades to it looking like they can't, even if they try. Could they even sign a rider as good as Hayden to replace Rossi if he left after 2012?

[RatsMC]

Did Stoner ever say Ducati wouldn't give him what he wanted? All I remember is him saying they simply didn't have the money to do so.

They clearly ignored the requests of their other riders but I'm not sure they did so with Stoner.

That is not to say that they tried to give Stoner a bike that suited him, I'm fairly certain they just tried to give him something fast.

[tom]

I'm not sure it means Ducati have changed if they still haven't delivered a competitive bike. Whether it's because they aren't listening, aren't understanding, aren't trying, aren't capable or aren't executing, it's all the same in the end. Hayden isn't going to speak up, that's not his style, and it's now looking like Ducati won't be competitive until 2013 at the earliest. Why wouldn't Rossi speak up?

And Ducati isn't looking good here, they've gone from Stoner saying they didn't want to do the necessary upgrades to it looking like they can't, even if they try. Could they even sign a rider as good as Hayden to replace Rossi if he left after 2012?

It appears to me that they have changed the materials and design of the bike and to a large extent it seems they have solved the lack of front end feel problem. However that was only one of the fundamental problems they had with their bike. Rossi asked for a bike with a strong front end, for what ever reason Ducati have been unable or unwilling to give him this. Whether it is the rear bias caused by an unwillingness to change the engine configuration that is to blame, or whether it is just Ducati working one problem at a time through their issues, is anyone's guess .

I suspect Ducati have done everything to fix their issues and learn as much as they can on the way, one issue at a time. They have just left the L configuration till last, hoping that it wouldn't be an issue once the feel problem was addressed but now the head honchos have said leave the L. Nicky's result was not encouraging he is still way two far off the pace. I suspect even Casey couldn't put this Ducati on the podium, he was never 1.5 seconds a lap faster than Nicky. Ducati need to listen to Rossi and give him a bike with a strong front end. Its not as if he has a unusual style, he has proven that a bike built around him will be equally useful in anyone else's hands.

Rossi is only human. If he has tried privately appealing to Ducati and they were not making the right noises, then I dont think his public prodding of Ducati is uncalled for. It appears to me that Ducati need to be saved from themselves and if anyone has the clout to do it its Rossi. I hope the Paddock and press largely support him, it would be a shame if the fall from grace story is deemed to be more newsworthy than backing him and asking Ducati the obvious hard questions. MotoGP might not need Rossi but I firmly believe it needs Ducati and I'm sure they wont survive beyond this year unless they get on the same page as Rossi pronto.

[dave_m]

Did Stoner ever say Ducati wouldn't give him what he wanted? All I remember is him saying they simply didn't have the money to do so.

They clearly ignored the requests of their other riders but I'm not sure they did so with Stoner.

That is not to say that they tried to give Stoner a bike that suited him, I'm fairly certain they just tried to give him something fast.

It's probably a matter of how his quotes are interpreted, whether they didn't deliver the upgrades because they didn't have the budget or thought the bike was good enough, the end result is the same. Stoner wasn't happy with the minimal pace of the development. Based on his comments since leaving Ducati, he clearly doesn't want to have to ride around problems forever and have his feedback seem less important just because he's fast anyway.

[Cam D]

Interesting stat from GPone.

[carty]

Nothing wrong with Marquez's pass IMO. Every time he overtook someone on the straight he went up the inside and then cut right out to the line before turning in- he'd done it to Iannone two or three times. I think Marquez thought he was ahead of Luthi when he cut out to the line but Luthi tried to outbrake him and stayed level. A hard but fair pass.

So Luthi shouldn't try to out brake him and stay level?

Luthi could have tried to outbrake him, in the end Luthi let off his brakes and sat up. He could have done a move a la Rossi against Lorenzo in Barcelona a couple of years back (remember when Rossi tucked his knee in to go round the outside of Lorenzo and then went past him and made the apex?) Luthi freaked out when Marquez started coming across to the outside of the track, it wasn't the cleanest pass by him, I have no particular interest in defending him, but I dont see why such a big deal is being made of it.