2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

[Gustav O]

Ben tried to not only match that, but pass Dani. Too much too soon. After that he never got near the 1'42s that Dani and Jorge ran for a while. I hope he gets things sorted.

Agreed. Unfortunate that he could not keep his calm a bit longer instead of going for the lead but at least he was there and he tried.

[Zaphod]

You got some strange ideas on what constitutes who's line is who's, and who should have rolled off the throttle Coyote........seems to depend on whether the rider is Spanish, judging by your hypocrisy in regards to the move from Sic.

With you on that one Squid. He knew he was there.

for more than 15 laps you know (pitboard, not to mention the odd look around) there are three bikes within your immediate vicinity........you stuff up, it's a fair bet that the one you can't see in front of you is going to be where you would have been, if you hadn't of stuffed up in the first place.

He is one dirty racer.

I am starting to think he's not good in knife fight of a race.Hence hanging people out to dry, so that they lose as much time as possible and he can have a gap. When it's races like last night, he doesn't do so well.

The good thing is, the better riders on the day beat him.

Question,........I keep getting told that his bike is not faster than anyone elses. How is it, that he comes onto the straight 2 to 3 bike lengths back on the guy in front of him (By that TV-eyeball measurement, I mean to highlight that he is definately not in the slip-stream), catches and passes them by the end of the straight ?


And from what I saw last night, don't try and give me the "he got better drive out of the corner"....'cause he didn't, if anything, the were eeking a bee's-dick out of him on exit.

[Gustav O]

All riders asked about the incident with Pol said that Marquez was at no fault and that it was a race incident, all three guys on the podium got the question in the post race presser, Casey was very clear on his twitter and Rossi also said it was a race incident.
Is it that his past actions have made people have a grudge against him and judge him harder?

Regarding the speed on the straight it has been analyzed by our own Krop after Qatar I think, in the cheating article. At Catalunya he had the tenth highest top speed.

[Squidpuppet]

With you on that one Squid. He knew he was there.

for more than 15 laps you know (pitboard, not to mention the odd look around)

Fack the pit board, he saw him with his EYES. At least he has good handlers. "Go in there and say you are sorry and that you didnt see him. It will help your chances regarding a penalty."

I am starting to think he's not good in knife fight of a race.

Iannone and Luthi and Pol are proving to be quite the worthy adversaries in a season that he was "going to dominate".

Question,........I keep getting told that his bike is not faster than anyone elses. How is it, that he comes onto the straight 2 to 3 bike lengths back on the guy in front of him (By that TV-eyeball measurement, I mean to highlight that he is definately not in the slip-stream), catches and passes them by the end of the straight ?

He is tiny. That make a big difference on a 600.

[Gustav O]

Fack the pit board, he saw him with his EYES. At least he has good handlers. "Go in there and say you are sorry and that you didnt see him. It will help your chances regarding a penalty."

When did he see him and how do you know that he saw him and that he is a liar?

[Squidpuppet]

Is it that his past actions have made people have a grudge against him and judge him harder?.

Not me. As soon as I saw it my attitude was that Marc created a hole when he left the line, Pol put his bike into the hole, Marc tried to re-enter the hole and bashed into Pol.

The helicopter shot REALLY made it look wreckless. WAY wide, then a wild swerve back.

I do NOT think he intended to hit Pol. IMO he just isnt paying enough attention to whats going on around him, and that is dangerous.

[wilzilla]

On a different subject of the Marquez/Espagaro incident, does no one wonder what sort of alchemy/witchcraft/wizardry Lorenzo pulled off for his celebration? Quite impressive i though!

[Squidpuppet]

Fack the pit board, he saw him with his EYES. At least he has good handlers. "Go in there and say you are sorry and that you didnt see him. It will help your chances regarding a penalty."

When did he see him and how do you know that he saw him and that he is a liar?

He saw him because he braced for the impact. Fact.

Instead of bracing for the impact, do what Dani did and go right.

He is a liar because he said he didnt see Pol. Fact.

Gustav, the guy is at the center of a controversial move almost every weekend. He is often sloppy and Wreckless. Sometimes even deliberately nasty. These repeat performances are not coincidences, they are caused by his lack of caution. Riders can be aggressive AND safe at the smae time. He isnt. This race alone he pulled 3 very shitty moves that I saw. One on Pol on lap 1. The riduculous pass BRAKE move on Iannoe. And the Pol punt.

[JanBros]

Marquez' move a race-incident

that's the same as saying :
- on full highway you are on the most left lane and about to miss your exit, so you just turn your steeringwheel to make it, without having a look if others are on the lanes to your right and without blinking. after all, that is the line you need and therefor it is your lane, not anybody else's ...
- you are riding in a street looking for a shop. suddenly you see it on the other side of the road and you turn your car onto it's parking, across oncoming traffic. after all, THAT is the line you need and f*ck all who might need that space to ...
- coming onto a crossroads and you need to go left (with a left-steer car). you put your car on the extra left lane for traffic wanting to go left at the crossroads and start to slow down. But then you realise you are one crossraod early, so you just go right again, bangong the car on your right that already pulled next to you out off the way. After all, that is where you need to be, never mind anybody else ...

I'd say : give him back the 1 minute penalty and include a "couple of races ban" the next time he is inconsiderate for his competitors.

[Grahluk]

I wouldn't call Marquez a liar or say if he did or didn't see Pol but I would say his move was class A boneheaded. I'm with the opinion that he should have checked the racing line before pulling into it & parking. He lost a lot of speed in that save & running wide. Pol was at race pace & couldn't simply sit up & roll off any more than Rossi & Edwards could when Sic veered back across the racing line in Sepang last year. Sic clearly was not in control as he was dragged into harms way but was similarly trying to save slide in a corner. If Marquez was more in control it would have been smart to try avoiding getting T boned or ran up his backside. A racing incident for sure but a boneheaded one. One that might not incur a penalty if it were another rider. Not that there is some bias working there but Marquez had been warned for other questionable acts and will surely have it coming to him if he doesn't find his head when involved in these moments. One such penalty might cost him points that would lose him the championship. I like Marquez & think he is the kind of talent that could shoot down aliens. He just needs to be smarter under pressure.

[tom]

Fantastic MotoGP race for a number of reasons. Lots of great battles that lasted the whole race, a well deserved victory, and most importantly I cant remember a time when the bikes were so even!

As far as each riders fastest lap go's, the top six were all within 0.21 seconds and that included 3 satellite riders! The top ten were within 0.573 seconds and that included both factory Ducatis. Lorenzo was on fire and yet Rossi was only half an odd second behind them. Things are looking good for the season. Ducati are defiantly making very good progress. Here's to hoping they find the remaining half a second.

Casey wasn't quite his usual self on the bike. He didn't look that comfortable. I haven't heard if there was an issue, perhaps just not a good day at the office. We all have them. Your could see the fight in Danny's body language on the bike and it was good to see.

I'm looking forward to the next race!

[dave_m]

I'm not sure the .5 second gap won't be an anomaly for Ducati and Rossi, but hopefully they find something at the next two tests. Good on Lorenzo and Pedrosa for a good showing at one of their "home" races, I'm happy to see the championship hopefully staying competitive.

As far as the Marquez incident goes, I hope the next time they hammer the crap out of him with the penalty and don't wimp out on appeal. (I think the next incident is guaranteed at this point, and he'll keep riding the same way until there are consequences.) Side by side view, it's obvious Marquez loses the front, slows down, goes off the racing line and then moves back over, without any concern for safety or caring if he's going to hit another rider. From the helicopter view, Espargaro changes his line for two reasons, first to pass Marquez, but also to avoid hitting him. Marquez is the one who made the mistake and he needed to accept that he was going to lose a little time and maybe another position, rather than endanger another rider. His move wasn't even good race strategy, as he risked a DNF and lost more time after the impact with Espargaro, but if he'd been a little more patient he might not have lost touch with the leaders.

[Cam D]

Dropping a few tenths per lap is much easier if staying with the leading group than coming from behind and having to race on your own while over taking slower bikes, riders etc.
Maybe it wouldn´t have ended with him on the box but I think he would have been better than 7th had he not gone off the track.

Agreed. I aint knocking the guy at all. I was just responding to Cam when he said that Ben had the pace of the leaders. Ben and Dani had nearly identical lap times on lap two. Then Dani improved his time by almost 4 tenths on lap 3. Ben tried to not only match that, but pass Dani. Too much too soon. After that he never got near the 1'42s that Dani and Jorge ran for a while. I hope he gets things sorted.

Yeah Squid, you're right. I generalised a bit... post race excitement He carried reasonable pace but was never in the Dani/Jorge league after the crash. Not sure of the damage though, maybe it made things a little difficult? I would like to think that he was on for more than 7th if he stayed upright.

[Oscar]

Fantastic MotoGP race for a number of reasons. Lots of great battles that lasted the whole race, a well deserved victory, and most importantly I cant remember a time when the bikes were so even!

As far as each riders fastest lap go's, the top six were all within 0.21 seconds and that included 3 satellite riders! The top ten were within 0.573 seconds and that included both factory Ducatis. Lorenzo was on fire and yet Rossi was only half an odd second behind them. Things are looking good for the season. Ducati are defiantly making very good progress. Here's to hoping they find the remaining half a second.

Casey wasn't quite his usual self on the bike. He didn't look that comfortable. I haven't heard if there was an issue, perhaps just not a good day at the office. We all have them. Your could see the fight in Danny's body language on the bike and it was good to see.

All bar one of the Hondas chose the hard tyre, I think (but am not at all sure) that it was only Bautista that went for the soft and IIRC he's running Showas? Methinks there is more of a story there than is being told, and it was a case of choosing the least worst option. Stoner's bike just wasn't firing out of the corners like usual, it looked lethargic and I'm thinking serious chatter from the rear end; obviously Pedrosa was a) riding bloody well, and b) had the set-up just a bit better. Yams 1-3-5 says they were the good thing to be on this particular weekend and were all very well ridden and this was one race where smooth was fastest. Next race could be a totally different ball-game, is going to be good to see things move around instead of being predictable.

Marquez was plain dumb for that move (and I'm a large Marquez fan); I think is guilty of major brain-fart rather than criminal intent though. While it is the responsibility of the overtaking rider to clear the slower rider, it is equally the responsibility of the slower rider to hold his line consistently and Marquez didn't do that. Espargaro had every right to take the line that kept his speed up and Marquez should not have come back onto the racing line at reduced speed as abruptly as he did. Personally, I feel the penalty should stand, for the future good of Marquez's racing: chalk it up to experience and take notice!

[coyote]

One was a normal overtaking manuvre, the other involved commiting a mistake and correcting it/returning to racing line without any regard for possible nearby competitors.

They are quite different to me.

You mean one was a reckless overtaking move cutting in to the space of the overtakee without any regard and one was a normal (succesful if Espargaro acts properly) defense of position after a mistake?

Even still I think Simo's penalty was nip and tuck.

Dive bombing down the inside and completing the move after a bump and ride that knocked your competitor down is reckless, IMO. Simo was as hard as possible, but he wasn't dishonest or anything like that. Marquez today was half stupid half this is MY turf. I don't think he should have recived a penalty, which is why this to me it seems as retroactive for his moves since Qatar or possibly Phillip Island 2011 (as mentioned by T. Moody in his twitter, and I agree with).

You mean the Simo-incident? He was trying to pass Dani on the outside. And Marquez wasn't stupid, it's called ruthless defending to which Espargaro responded poorly.

[coyote]

Yeah, Marc was "defending" a space already occupied by Pol, you know, that space called the racing line, the space Marc left.

Espargaro wasn't there yet, hence him being behind and hitting to the side of Marquez when the contact happened.

[coyote]

You got some strange ideas on what constitutes who's line is who's, and who should have rolled off the throttle Coyote........seems to depend on whether the rider is Spanish, judging by your hypocrisy in regards to the move from Sic.

With you on that one Squid. He knew he was there.

for more than 15 laps you know (pitboard, not to mention the odd look around) there are three bikes within your immediate vicinity........you stuff up, it's a fair bet that the one you can't see in front of you is going to be where you would have been, if you hadn't of stuffed up in the first place.

He is one dirty racer.

I am starting to think he's not good in knife fight of a race.Hence hanging people out to dry, so that they lose as much time as possible and he can have a gap. When it's races like last night, he doesn't do so well.

The good thing is, the better riders on the day beat him.

Question,........I keep getting told that his bike is not faster than anyone elses. How is it, that he comes onto the straight 2 to 3 bike lengths back on the guy in front of him (By that TV-eyeball measurement, I mean to highlight that he is definately not in the slip-stream), catches and passes them by the end of the straight ?


And from what I saw last night, don't try and give me the "he got better drive out of the corner"....'cause he didn't, if anything, the were eeking a bee's-dick out of him on exit.

I explained the situations clearly in one of my previous posts, please go read that again.

Of course Marquez knew Espargaro was somewhere very close to him, that's why he needed to defend his place as quickly as possible. You seem to have a strange perception of racing if riders making a mistake should wave the guy behind through.

He's not good in a knife fight? From what I can remember of last and this year Marquez has been winning these battles and races at a scary level, did Bradl beat him in a h-2-h once? Must've been at least 5 times the other way.

As to the rest of your post, pretty sad. Marquez is dirty and has a bike advantage, good to know.

[coyote]

Marquez' move a race-incident

that's the same as saying :
- on full highway you are on the most left lane and about to miss your exit, so you just turn your steeringwheel to make it, without having a look if others are on the lanes to your right and without blinking. after all, that is the line you need and therefor it is your lane, not anybody else's ...
- you are riding in a street looking for a shop. suddenly you see it on the other side of the road and you turn your car onto it's parking, across oncoming traffic. after all, THAT is the line you need and f*ck all who might need that space to ...
- coming onto a crossroads and you need to go left (with a left-steer car). you put your car on the extra left lane for traffic wanting to go left at the crossroads and start to slow down. But then you realise you are one crossraod early, so you just go right again, bangong the car on your right that already pulled next to you out off the way. After all, that is where you need to be, never mind anybody else ...

I'd say : give him back the 1 minute penalty and include a "couple of races ban" the next time he is inconsiderate for his competitors.

Are you seriously comparing a motorcycle-race to something that happens in a highway? Seriously?

Talk about clutching at straws...

[coyote]

He saw him because he braced for the impact. Fact.

Instead of bracing for the impact, do what Dani did and go right.

He is a liar because he said he didnt see Pol. Fact.

Gustav, the guy is at the center of a controversial move almost every weekend. He is often sloppy and Wreckless. Sometimes even deliberately nasty. These repeat performances are not coincidences, they are caused by his lack of caution. Riders can be aggressive AND safe at the smae time. He isnt. This race alone he pulled 3 very shitty moves that I saw. One on Pol on lap 1. The riduculous pass BRAKE move on Iannoe. And the Pol punt.

Quite confrontative when you have no proof of those being facts (which they aren't BTW).

When does he brace for impact? His riding position stays the same right into the contact, most likely because he didn't see Espargaro coming through. As to the imaginary other moves, c'mon. I saw all of the lead riders change their line under braking without a bigger fuss. You're letting your bias affect your judgment pretty severely I'd say.

[Squidpuppet]

Yeah, Marc was "defending" a space already occupied by Pol, you know, that space called the racing line, the space Marc left.

Espargaro wasn't there yet, hence him being behind and hitting to the side of Marquez when the contact happened.

Pol was going forward, maintaining a forward trajectory, on the racing line. Marc changed his trajectory, swerved left and hit Pol.

If Pol had swerved wide to the right and hit Marc, Pol would have been in the wrong. But that aint what happened is it?

[coyote]

Pol was going forward, maintaining a forward trajectory, on the racing line. Marc changed his trajectory, swerved left and hit Pol.

If Pol had swerved wide to the right and hit Marc, Pol would have been in the wrong. But that aint what happened is it?

Marquez took a pretty normal line line through that corner even with his save, considering that corner is one you can take a wider line as well. Espargaro was actually way on the inside of the racing line throughout the move after Marquez' mistake, you can see how he's hugging the rumble strips for quite a long time which is not how you take that corner. This also surely had an effect on Marquez not realizing he could be there. I just realized Marquez lost very little width throughout, only maybe 20-30 cm, but mainly speed. This would indicate it was Espargaro who changed his line to the inside of the racing line to try to make the pass. If this is deciding factor for you, Pol would have been in the wrong as well.

As to the contact, Pol was behind traveling in quite a slower speed when he hit the side of unsuspecting Marquez. He clearly had started avoiding action too late after realizing his miscalculation and over-exuberance, but there's no doubt he comes to the side of Marquez.

[Squidpuppet]

When does he brace for impact? His riding position stays the same right into the contact, most likely because he didn't see Espargaro coming through.

Watch it again from the approach camera angle. At 1:01:02.It is clearly obvious. He pulls his are and leg in away from Pol and tightens his shoulder.

As to the imaginary other moves, c'mon.

The ones that the commentators made a big point of? Imaginary?

You're letting your bias affect your judgment pretty severely I'd say.

You'd be dead wrong. I have no bias, I want all riders to race super aggressively, and safely.

[Zaphod]

I just don't get it Coyote........you're calling Sic in the wrong and dangerous for the Lemans thing, but somehow Marquez had every right to swerve into another riders path, when he was by that point, going much slower, to defend a line he no longer owned.

No-one is imagining this stuff, and I reckon even Salvador Dahli would struggle with your surrealist take on who's in the wrong. A completely avoidable racing incident. What you are saying is that Pol should have realised it MM, stopped and let him maintain the position he had before he made a mistake.

I thought they were racing, and if someone stuffs up and creates a gap, you go for it. It's not like Marquez closed the door, or was closing the door, before Pol arrived.

He closed it when Pol got there.

Fact.

Check any of the availiable video.

And if Pol had been seriously hurt, that's fine is it ? Most other, in fact I can't think of one rider who shows on a regular basis such scant disregard for the safety of those around him.Not in this case, but in all his previous efforts this year, it comes across as a concious, deliberate act.

The guy is either a bonehead, or, as these things seem to occur predomiately on his left hand side, he can't see out of his left eye.

As Squid said, you'd be up in arms if it happened the other way 'round.

........oh, wait a minute.....it did at LeMans last year, and you are.


Fair call though, we're all idiots who know squat, and we should at least have the good grace and common sense to wait until one of his stupid moves seriously injure, or god forbid worse, another rider.

Then we may consider that he might have made a mistake.

[coyote]

Watch it again from the approach camera angle. It is clearly obvious.

Unless you can point me to some super-slow mo, the replays Ive seen show he doesn't change anything in his riding.

The ones that the commentators made a big point of? Imaginary?

The commentators who mention every previous move Marquez has ever made from lap 2? Referring to Qatar as soon as something happens between Marquez and Luthi? No doubt they will make a significant point every single time. Doesn't matter to me.

You'd be dead wrong. I have no bias, I want all riders to race super aggressively, and safely.

The what do you make of all the Motogp riders thinking it was definitely not worth a penalty and just racing? Doesnt make much sense that.

[Squidpuppet]

Espargaro was actually way on the inside of the racing line throughout the move after Marquez' mistake, you can see how he's hugging the rumble strips for quite a long time which is not how you take that corner.

If Pol was inside the racing line, then Marc had even LESS business crossing over into his turff. If Marc came back to "your" version of the racing line, then fine. But why did he go past that, all the way to the kerb? Makes no sense.

As to the contact, Pol was behind traveling in quite a slower speed when he hit the side of unsuspecting Marquez.

Pol was going slower than Marc. LOL. Thats news. Marc made a hole and Pol filled it. Thats proof the Pol was traveling at a higher speed.

You should replace "unsuspecting" with inattentive and insufficiently (dangerously) unaware of his surroundings.