2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

[tom]

My 2 cents is racing incident! Neither rider was completely in control. Rider in front obviously did a brilliant save and rider behind almost went down avoiding the incident. Flat out corner with bugger all traction left for braking.

Rider in front acted instinctively and did the right thing by keeping the throttle pinned and saving with knee and elbow. When he regained complete control he was on a good line with throttle pinned. I don't think he changed his line at all.

Rider 2 was bucking and weaving loosing front and rear in an effort to tighten his line and shed a little speed to avoid collision. Im not sure he was going for the gap, he looked like a passenger throughout the incident. I don't think he could have done anything more than he did.

I don't think rider one should have done anything differently either. The save was a reflex, he still had a great deal of momentum and the best thing to do in that situation is keep going on the line you find yourself on with the throttle pinned once you gain control. Anything less is not racing and a lot more dangerous.

I think it's easy to conclude that the riders are in more control and have more options available to them, then they actually have, when you are watching slow motion footage it seems they have more time. This is all blink of an eye stuff.

Race incident. No need for passionate arguments.

[Zaphod]

Damn you and your eloquence Tom !!!

[coyote]

I have, and you are wrong.

Marc attempted to occupy a space that was ALREADY occupied. Period. Not the other way around.

That wasn't the question though. Where does Espargaro hit Marquez? It's obvious that we disagree on who came into whos space.

[coyote]

My 2 cents is racing incident! Neither rider was completely in control. Rider in front obviously did a brilliant save and rider behind almost went down avoiding the incident. Flat out corner with bugger all traction left for braking.

Rider in front acted instinctively and did the right thing by keeping the throttle pinned and saving with knee and elbow. When he regained complete control he was on a good line with throttle pinned. I don't think he changed his line at all.

Rider 2 was bucking and weaving loosing front and rear in an effort to tighten his line and shed a little speed to avoid collision. Im not sure he was going for the gap, he looked like a passenger throughout the incident. I don't think he could have done anything more than he did.

I don't think rider one should have done anything differently either. The save was a reflex, he still had a great deal of momentum and the best thing to do in that situation is keep going on the line you find yourself on with the throttle pinned once you gain control. Anything less is not racing and a lot more dangerous.

I think it's easy to conclude that the riders are in more control and have more options available to them, then they actually have, when you are watching slow motion footage it seems they have more time. This is all blink of an eye stuff.
Race incident. No need for passionate arguments.

That's interesting that you'd think Pol wasn't in control in going to the gap, IMO he was trying too hard to make the move there and misjudged the situation. I do agree though that it was a racing incident and that no penalties was the correct ruling, glad to see rational people (other than me ) post about the situation.

[Squidpuppet]

I have, and you are wrong.

Marc attempted to occupy a space that was ALREADY occupied. Period. Not the other way around.

That wasn't the question though. Where does Espargaro hit Marquez? It's obvious that we disagree on who came into whos space.

There was no question in your post. I did, however, comment on the helicopter angle.

[Squidpuppet]

The save was a reflex, he still had a great deal of momentum and the best thing to do in that situation is keep going on the line you find yourself on with the throttle pinned once you gain control. .

I completely agree. But Tom, do you think Marc stayed on his existing line?

[Rusty Bucket USA]

How many pages dedicated to the Marquez/Espargaro incident?
Why?

Here's an idea:
THERE IS A FORUM FOR MOTO 2 RACES!

This is not it!

[coyote]

There was no question in your post. I did, however, comment on the helicopter angle.

Fine, I'm asking now. When Marquez and Espargaro make contact where are their bikes in relation to the track? In other words, who would you classificate to be ahead at that point?

[Squidpuppet]

There was no question in your post. I did, however, comment on the helicopter angle.

Fine, I'm asking now. When Marquez and Espargaro make contact where are their bikes in relation to the track? In other words, who would you classificate to be ahead at that point?

My answer will be in the Marquez thread. Lets take it there.

[Oscar]

but it really does boggle my mind to see so much anger and hate directed towards him. He must be doing something right to receive so much antipathy, eh.

Well, indeedy. This sort of reaction should be reserved for Stoner - n'est ce pas? The phrase pot and kettle comes to mind.

[corinthian]

THERE IS A FORUM FOR MOTO 2 RACES!

The voice of reason. People could chill out a bit too.

Back on topic, I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'm very grateful for this year's Bridgestones.

[n8r]

Did anyone notice how in the telemtry Jorge was going wide open well before Pedrosa even when he is behind him? In addition in the super slomo you can see Jorge going wide open just after apexing. I think Yamaha may have made some sort of traction control jump forward ahead of the other teams.

[Gar]

Did anyone notice how in the telemtry Jorge was going wide open well before Pedrosa even when he is behind him? In addition in the super slomo you can see Jorge going wide open just after apexing. I think Yamaha may have made some sort of traction control jump forward ahead of the other teams.

It's all a matter of how the engine management system is set up, and how the engine hits on the bottom. I did notice what you mentioned, but one other thing that we'd need to compare would be engine speed and gearing (I can't remember if that was on the graphic, and if it was I don't remember what the answer was.

[CLX]

What do you guys gather from the tets times?
I'd like to know how many laps they did.

Pos Rider Bike Time Diff Prev.
1 Andrea Dovizioso Yamaha 1:41.997
2 Ben Spies Yamaha 1:42.143 0.146 0.146
3 Hector Barbera Ducati 1:42.185 0.188 0.042
4 Alvaro Bautista Honda 1:42.309 0.312 0.124
5 Dani Pedrosa Honda 1:42.342 0.345 0.033
6 Casey Stoner Honda 1:42.369 0.372 0.027
7 Cal Crutchlow Yamaha 1:42.378 0.381 0.009
8 Jorge Lorenzo Yamaha 1:42.535 0.538 0.157
9 Stefan Bradl Honda 1:42.769 0.772 0.234
10 Nicky Hayden Ducati 1:42.941 0.944 0.172
11 Valentino Rossi Ducati 1:43.252 1.255 0.311
12 Karel Abraham Ducati 1:43.926 1.929 0.674
13 Randy de Puniet Aprilia ART 1:44.236 2.239 0.310
14 Aleix Espargaro Aprilia ART 1:44.487 2.490 0.251
15 Colin Edwards Suter BMW 1:44.979 2.982 0.492
16 Michele Pirro FTR Honda 1:45.080 3.083 0.101
17 Yonny Hernandez FTR Kawasaki 1:45.701 3.704 0.621
18 Mattia Pasini Aprilia ART 1:45.870 3.873 0.169
19 Ivan Silva FTR Kawasaki 1:45.968 3.971 0.098
20 James Ellison Aprilia ART 1:46.047 4.050 0.079

[dave_m]

You can get the number of laps done at motogp.com

[Zaphod]

Not too much CLX, the fact that Barbera ran a faster time than the race winner tells me (right or wrong) that programs were being run and data collected by some, the ones who probably weren't running test bits seem to have run the test to find their fastest set up, Tech 3, Pramac etc.

Waiting to for post Laguna to get some idea of where Ducati is at. I don't think it will be leaps and bounds, more a visual thing...maybe a place or two/close gap to leaders at finish a little bit, and doing it more comfortably.

...like Catalunya.

It's hard to tell with the Honda.......apparently it's not real flash (I can't remember Stoner being quite so matter of fact about the Duc's short comings), and if Stoner want's, or needs to, he'll ride around it.

That what made his race in Catalunya strange to me.........we've come to expect that he'll ride around problems like that.

[tz250w]

That what made his race in Catalunya strange to me.........we've come to expect that he'll ride around problems like that.

IMO, no matter how much he says he'll continue to "fight" until the end of the season... in the back of his head he has to be saying "why push it" when it's risky. If he truly desires to go out on top, he'll be there or thereabouts until the need to pull the pin deems more is required. He surely hasn't forgotten how to ride, or ride around it. I just think his motivation to do so has stepped back a couple notches.

[Oscar]

It's hard to tell with the Honda.......apparently it's not real flash (I can't remember Stoner being quite so matter of fact about the Duc's short comings), and if Stoner want's, or needs to, he'll ride around it.
That what made his race in Catalunya strange to me.........we've come to expect that he'll ride around problems like that.

Watched a replay of the race last night and (without trying to make excuses here), Stoner's bike just looked sort of flat on performance everywhere - usually there's somewhere that he can find a strength to pull out a bit even if it's weak and gets reeled back in other places. Crutchlow was riding a bit harder, for sure, but both the Repsol Hondas looked to be no better than a match for the Tech 3 bikes; Pedrosa used his tyres a bit harder a bit earlier and Stoner's times for the last five or so laps suggest he left his run for the line probably one lap too late to catch Dovi - though Dovi can thank Crutchlow for keeping Stoner busy.. Given the chatter and high braking forces, I wonder if managing the possible onset of arm-pump was a factor in Stoner's strategy i.e. looking at the next set of races and not wanting to bring on any problems?

It certainly seems as if Stoner was reasonably resigned to that finish being as good as he could get; when one looked at both Lorenzo and Pedrosa's little mistakes, nobody was playing footsies and the strength of Lorenzo's finish says volumes about how damn good he is at pushing the thing to the nth degree. Basically, it's hard to see that the Hondas just weren't quite up to the task on the day and maybe Catalunya needs to be put down - at the moment - as a 'Yamaha track', to use the old wisdom...

[Cam D]

That what made his race in Catalunya strange to me.........we've come to expect that he'll ride around problems like that.

IMO, no matter how much he says he'll continue to "fight" until the end of the season... in the back of his head he has to be saying "why push it" when it's risky. If he truly desires to go out on top, he'll be there or thereabouts until the need to pull the pin deems more is required. He surely hasn't forgotten how to ride, or ride around it. I just think his motivation to do so has stepped back a couple notches.

You could be right, but I'm not sure he's that kind of person. I was impressed with how hard he worked for DUcati right up till the end, and he'd given them early notice the same as he has done now.

[Japhrodisiac]

That what made his race in Catalunya strange to me.........we've come to expect that he'll ride around problems like that.

IMO, no matter how much he says he'll continue to "fight" until the end of the season... in the back of his head he has to be saying "why push it" when it's risky. If he truly desires to go out on top, he'll be there or thereabouts until the need to pull the pin deems more is required. He surely hasn't forgotten how to ride, or ride around it. I just think his motivation to do so has stepped back a couple notches.

I don't know, Stoner looked pretty upset at his finishing position when he came back to the garage. He's a tough competitor and I'm sure that he gives it his all every time out. I think that the Hondas are so good much of the time that people forget that they can have off races too. If he doesn't win the title this year, people might start saying that he wasn't trying. Enough of that might actually get him back riding!

It reminds me of what it must have been like for him to get such flack for the whole mystery illness/lactose intolerance issue. Here he has rung the crap out of a dud bike that no one else can do anything on - and they go and offer Jorge double his paycheque after a few difficult weeks. That must have been the beginning of the end for him, right there. Despite him chewing on gravel for a short while, he seems to have done ok after that period at Ducati concluded. I reckon he's a tryer.

[Gar]

Seems like bad chatter would be pretty difficult to ride around.

[Zaphod]

You'd think it couldn't be harder than riding the Duc. You'd also think he'd want to go out on top.....though only he knows on both counts.

Strange ride considering his known ability, and the presumption his and Pedrosa's bike were about the same. He did look red faced/buggered and miffed during the short TV shot of him in the garage post race.

[Gustav O]

You'd think it couldn't be harder than riding the Duc. You'd also think he'd want to go out on top.....though only he knows on both counts.

Strange ride considering his known ability, and the presumption his and Pedrosa's bike were about the same. He did look red faced/buggered and miffed during the short TV shot of him in the garage post race.

I think severe chatter and lack of grip due to a possibly faulty tire choice is harder to ride around than a bike that wants to under steer.

[Cam D]

Yamaha release from Ben -
“We worked on some things and got going pretty well. The main focus was on distance with the bike. We got a decent pace going, especially with lots of laps on the tyres. I was happy with what we tested so now we go to Aragon and try to keep going forward. We tried a different engine spec and played around with the electronics. The engine spec was a little improvement but you know riders, we always want at least 10km faster on the straights!”

Jorge -
“We tried a new engine spec today that in theory is more powerful. Until now we didn’t find any big improvement, some little advantages and some little disadvantages. In Aragon we will try some modifications to the electronics to see if we can gain something.”

Dovi -
“Today was very positive and despite missing a bit of time while the track dried this morning, we were able to work through our schedule. Finishing fastest means we have shown once again our potential and I am now starting to feel really confident and comfortable with the YZR-M1. Yamaha gave us a new engine to try and I was able to give my impressions of it and help with some comments for future development. The most positive point of the day was the electronics package. It doesn't help for a single lap but it makes the life of the tyre significantly better and that is really important for us. We made another step forward with the set-up of the bike compared to the race and now I am looking forward to the Aragon test. This track has not been the best for me so I am curious to check my level on the Yamaha there. I am looking forward to confirming the results of the race and the test here in Catalunya.”

Cal -
“Today certainly could have got off to a better start and the crash made it quite tough. We had a lot of work to do but I crashed on only my second lap. It was my fault because we knew there was likely to be some water under the bridge at Turn 4 after the overnight rain. The problem is you can't see the wet patch and as soon as I touched the brakes I crashed. It was a very fast crash and I've lost some skin on my right leg and back. Luckily though I am fine and I was able to go back out and build up my confidence again. Losing one bike made it difficult because it meant we had to put all the new parts we had on one bike, so I wasn't sure exactly where the improvements were. If we had two bikes it would have made it easier to understand specifically what felt better. But I was able to work a lot on used tyres and my pace at the end of the day was pleasing. I wasn't going to push too hard and risk another crash so I'm sure I could be higher than seventh. Now I'm looking forward to Aragon where hopefully I can get a better understanding for the new parts Yamaha delivered here.”

The bold part should make Honda a little anxious. Good news that the Tech 3 boys get the new donk as well. Very smart work from Yamaha.

[sir_nj]

[

That what made his race in Catalunya strange to me.........we've come to expect that he'll ride around problems like that.

IMO, no matter how much he says he'll continue to "fight" until the end of the season... in the back of his head he has to be saying "why push it" when it's risky. If he truly desires to go out on top, he'll be there or thereabouts until the need to pull the pin deems more is required. He surely hasn't forgotten how to ride, or ride around it. I just think his motivation to do so has stepped back a couple notches.

I don't know, Stoner looked pretty upset at his finishing position when he came back to the garage. He's a tough competitor and I'm sure that he gives it his all every time out. I think that the Hondas are so good much of the time that people forget that they can have off races too. If he doesn't win the title this year, people might start saying that he wasn't trying. Enough of that might actually get him back riding!

It reminds me of what it must have been like for him to get such flack for the whole mystery illness/lactose intolerance issue. Here he has rung the crap out of a dud bike that no one else can do anything on - and they go and offer Jorge double his paycheque after a few difficult weeks. That must have been the beginning of the end for him, right there. Despite him chewing on gravel for a short while, he seems to have done ok after that period at Ducati concluded. I reckon he's a tryer.

+1

I would add that if Casey has learn't one thing that is it is much better to finish off the rostrum than not finish. This early in the season with a bike that bounces like a pogo and only going to get worse when they have to use the only front tyre he is not going to learn anything or gain any advantage by bouncing on his head.

Jorge is quite rightly making hay while the sun shines. Firstly the Honda may get sorted and secondly you want to have a nice big buffer in front of Casey going into the second half of the season.

I'm hoping they can sort the Honda but if not I don't think either Casey or Dani are going to take it easy.