New Bridgestone "33" tire option

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New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby dave_m on Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:20 am

Lots of opinions about exactly what is happening with the introduction of the new Bridgestone tires, and there are a couple questions I'm not sure I've seen answered yet as well. During last season, there was a lot of talk that the tires needed to change for 2012, mainly with the emphasis on warming up quicker and not loosing grip as quickly when they cooled off. Is this new "33" tire the first or second response to that request? I know the 2012 tires were going to be different anyway, but when was this specific change first introduced?

I'm not actually very sympathetic to Honda's complaints of chatter or not liking the new tire as much as the old. First, the 2012 bike has always had chatter problems so their complaints are more about a defect with their bike than the tire. Secondly, everything I've read about the newer tire indicates most riders think it's better, which is about all Bridgestone can hope for. If every single rider had to agree on the tire updates, I'm not sure anything would ever happen. As far as conspiracies go, I don't see any way Bridgestone or Dorna are trying to handicap Honda, as I don't think they know who likes/dislikes the tires until they ask for feedback and then go with the majority.

What's everyone else think of the new tires? I'm in favor of them just as it sounds like they may cause closer racing and work for most riders.
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Cam D on Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:56 am

I moved this here because it's probably why this thread started.

Dani recently said that Honda won't be testing at Aragon because they won't be bringing the new front tyre to the test. He also said the latest test was spent trying to get the best out of the new front with out much luck.
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This year's Honda had to cope with the extra 4kg added by the rule change in December, the discovery of chatter over the winter tests, and the fact that their riders don't like the new design of front tyre. It's only been an option up to now, but will be the only construction available from Silverstone onwards.


I reckon this scenario is just another sign of MotoGP not having their act together. They supply tyres at the end of the year for the teams to test with and set up their bikes. Then they bring in new tyres half way through the year and take away the option of the existing tyre? Why would you even do this? Especially when one of the teams has expressed issues with the new rubber. Why not bring the new tyre to the test so that they can try to make it work? It's so unprofessional, they're changing the gold posts half way through the game! Seems like Dorna have got it in for Honda and/or Casey.

edit: I obviously don't think they have it in for Honda or Casey but they are the two big players that are affected the most. They are also the two big players that have played hard ball with Dorna recently.
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby TwoStroke Institute on Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:18 am

Don't think for a minute the Bridgestone don't have a mountain of data on how each bike and rider uses tyres. Things like this never happen by accident.
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Nucci on Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:19 am

Repsol Honda had the same access to this new tyre as every other team, so no conspiracy there.
The Aragon test was a late addition due to Estoril being rained out, Bridgestone couldnt supply the new spec tire in time for this test, so no conspiracy there either.

Bridgestone developed a new front tyre for 2012 which had changes just to the rubber compounds, the 33 has developments to the construction as well so its less rigid. I don't think they can supply both tyres as a)it messes with the production schedule and b) over a race distance it is not known what the performance differential is i.e. Repsol Honda could be dis/advantaged by being the sole runner on this tyre.

This change was made due to safety, not performance reasons it seems. Bottom line was the 'original' 2012 spec tyre was safer than last year, but after talking to the riders the Safety Commission said riders preferred the 33 as it gave a lot more feedback from the front. So on the basis of this consensus, it was decided to replace the current spec with the 33.
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby CLX on Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:22 pm

What tyres were taken to Estoril in the first place?

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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Nucci on Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:42 pm

I believe they were the 33, but different compounds to what's needed at Aragon
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Cam D on Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:40 pm

Stoner said the new softer front tyre lacked stability under hard braking and he added: “We have to run a lot more front pressure to get any stability out of the tyre and then you go into the corner and it is very dull, it doesn't do anything. "There is no support, nothing as you go into the turn. Then if you put weight on the tyre the front wants to tuck.”

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport ... re-switch/
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Nucci on Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:51 pm

I'm no engineer but it sounds like the weight transfer on the Repsol Honda spec RC213V is a lot more aggressive than on the other bikes, including the satellite 213V's. It seems under braking it transfers load to the front-end in a way that places a lot more pressure on the front tyre and creates more deformation. It could be anything and when you consider the combination of chassis geometry, specification of fork, fork angle, brake spec, or even off-throttle electronic settings finding a solution will be hard but I doubt its beyond the abilities of the HRC engineers.

As Casey said, they will find a way to make it work.
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Cam D on Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:12 pm

Well put by Krop -
While it may be argued that chatter is a problem with the Honda - the RC213V has had chatter from the very beginning - as the other bikes don't suffer from it, the lack of tires available for testing does look amateurish and very poorly organized. Honda may be to blame for the chatter, but they have to be given a chance to fix it.


Casey on the chatter -
Honda, they spent a lot of time working on the chatter at the rear that has plagued the bike since the start of the season. They found a few solutions to the rear chatter, though Casey Stoner was still cautious, saying he'd rather wait till he got to Silverstone to make a more complete judgment. They did feel that they had an idea of what was causing the chatter, and so had a direction to pursue. "If we could make a few new parts for Silverstone, it would be fantastic," Stoner said. The Australian was coy about the parts that he had tested and that had made the difference, saying only "It's a very small part, something we didn't really expect.
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New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby cmb on Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:53 pm

I bet Ducati wished they had chatter like the Honda. They have chatter and are still over a second quicker.
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Gustav O on Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:21 pm

So there is a conspiracy between Dorna and Bridgestone aimed at HRC and Stoner. Put down the pipes and take the tin foil hats off - please.
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Gustav O on Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:23 pm

Cam D wrote:Well put by Krop -
While it may be argued that chatter is a problem with the Honda - the RC213V has had chatter from the very beginning - as the other bikes don't suffer from it, the lack of tires available for testing does look amateurish and very poorly organized. Honda may be to blame for the chatter, but they have to be given a chance to fix it.

I agree to some extent but what kind of troubles should the manufacturers be given a chance to fix and what should they not be given a chance to fix?
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby dave_m on Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:05 pm

Even though the lack of new front tires for the Aragon test makes sense, it does contribute to the switch looking a little unprofessional. Although if they had originally planned on testing at Estoril with this new construction, it does make it look like bad luck more than anything else. A mid-season switch is always going to be a little hectic though, especially when the goal is to improve safety instead of performance. As far as I can tell, the Yamaha riders like the new tire quite a lot, the Ducati riders like it or are indifferent, and the Honda riders don't want anything to do with it. Anyone heard what the CRT riders think of the new tires?
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Squidpuppet on Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:12 pm

dave_m wrote: As far as conspiracies go.......


Casey announced his (EARLY) retirement and pissed DORNA off by complaining about the series. He is being deliberately punished with unsuitable tires. Fact. :lol:


Seriously though, does anyone know which front tire Bradl used for the race? New or old style?
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Squidpuppet on Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:20 pm

Cam D wrote: The Australian was coy about the parts that he had tested and that had made the difference, saying only "It's a very small part, something we didn't really expect.


Damnit! I hate that! I want to know those details. :) :ugeek:
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby dave_m on Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:28 pm

Squidpuppet wrote:
dave_m wrote: As far as conspiracies go.......


Casey announced his (EARLY) retirement and pissed DORNA off by complaining about the series. He is being deliberately punished with unsuitable tires. Fact. :lol:


Seriously though, does anyone know which front tire Bradl used for the race? New or old style?


According to Bridgestone, 15 of the 21 riders used the new construction at Catalunya. And that's with the riders only getting 2 of those tires for the weekend, so it appears to be an immediate improvement for most teams. I didn't find anything specific about the construction, but Bradl used the hard tire option like the other Honda riders, so I'm guessing he wasn't using the new construction.
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby corinthian on Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:11 pm

dave_m wrote:According to Bridgestone, 15 of the 21 riders used the new construction at Catalunya. And that's with the riders only getting 2 of those tires for the weekend, so it appears to be an immediate improvement for most teams.

There is another possibility. All teams knew that they would have to spend at least two thirds of the season on the new tyres, and they are all in the process of developing new bikes. Switching to the newer tyre as soon as possible removes one variable and allows settings from early races to be used as a starting point at similar tracks later in the season. Of course this is just speculation.

It's easy to entertain conspiracy theories in this case, as so much intrigue in the past has had to do with tyres. I don't believe that Dorna are out to get anyone here, but I agree that this is another case of a mandated change which is not necessarily bad in itself but has been poorly implemented, as was the late addition of 4 kg to the total bike weight, or switching Ben Spies' bikes for one of Cal's and one of Dovi's and not telling anybody :lol:
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Nachlauf on Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:28 am

For those of you who have a season pass there is some small information about the new spec front tire in the post qualifying PC in Barcelona.

Iirc Lorenzo stated, that it allows him to brake a fraction later. And Crutchlow said it made no difference to him. No mention about it warming up better or being safer by any means. Make of it what ever you want.
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Cam D on Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:49 am

Nachlauf wrote:For those of you who have a season pass there is some small information about the new spec front tire in the post qualifying PC in Barcelona.

Iirc Lorenzo stated, that it allows him to brake a fraction later. And Crutchlow said it made no difference to him. No mention about it warming up better or being safer by any means. Make of it what ever you want.

I don't remember reading any complaints about the old tyre being unsafe. Infact Bridgestone have been quoting improved lap times for the first lap in some races which makes you believe the tyres are better from cold. So far I don't really buy the "safer tyre" story that is being sold. If the issue is primarily about safety, then why not let Honda use the tyre they say makes thir riders safe?
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Gustav O on Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:41 am

Cam D wrote:If the issue is primarily about safety, then why not let Honda use the tyre they say makes thir riders safe?

The new tire has a softer carcassa and heats up quicker, wich i s I guess the safety aspect in it. I guess they won´t have two tires as it is a single tire series and that would basically mean that HRC would get special tires, hence not within the sentiment of the single tire idea. Bringing the new tire in before Silverstone so that all riders could try makes sense.
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby TwoStroke Institute on Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:46 pm

Gustav O wrote:So there is a conspiracy between Dorna and Bridgestone aimed at HRC and Stoner. Put down the pipes and take the tin foil hats off - please.


Don't think there is a conspiracy.......................Dorna are not that smart. Which got me wondering have they ever made any hasty rule changes or applied pressure to suppliers before...........or recently ;)
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Gustav O on Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:18 pm

TwoStroke Institute wrote:Don't think there is a conspiracy.......................Dorna are not that smart. Which got me wondering have they ever made any hasty rule changes or applied pressure to suppliers before...........or recently ;)

I am also stupid so I don´t know that answer to your question..
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby L34 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:12 pm

Nucci wrote:Repsol Honda had the same access to this new tyre as every other team, so no conspiracy there.
The Aragon test was a late addition due to Estoril being rained out, Bridgestone couldnt supply the new spec tire in time for this test, so no conspiracy there either.

Bridgestone developed a new front tyre for 2012 which had changes just to the rubber compounds, the 33 has developments to the construction as well so its less rigid. I don't think they can supply both tyres as a)it messes with the production schedule and b) over a race distance it is not known what the performance differential is i.e. Repsol Honda could be dis/advantaged by being the sole runner on this tyre.

This change was made due to safety, not performance reasons it seems. Bottom line was the 'original' 2012 spec tyre was safer than last year, but after talking to the riders the Safety Commission said riders preferred the 33 as it gave a lot more feedback from the front. So on the basis of this consensus, it was decided to replace the current spec with the 33.


Why wasnt it up to the other bike manufacturers to make the earlier front tyre work on their bikes like it worked for Honda?
Is BS now going to change the construction of the rear tyre to help Honda's rear chatter?
If not, why not?


DORNA wouldnt like the look of the current WC sitting down by a river burramunda fishing while the 2013 season was on.
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Nucci on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:36 pm

*shrugs* The decision to introduce the new front hoop was made by the MotoGP Safety Commission not Bridgestone.
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Re: New Bridgestone "33" tire option

Postby Tourn46 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:37 pm

L34 wrote:Is BS now going to change the construction of the rear tyre to help Honda's rear chatter?
If not, why not?


Why not give Ducati 6 extra engines, a bypass around any turns that they experience understeer, a Turbo button and 5 litres of extra fuel?
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