DORNA whys and why nots

[Gar]

This thread is suffering from maximum verbosity per post

[GD66]

Honda did run the RS500 twin in Repsol colors. With Shinichi Ito if my memory is correct.

Takuma Aoki, I think, and also Gibernau once or twice. Further to the enlarged Aprilia, Jeremy McWilliams put one on pole at Phillip Island (hats off, son !) but while it had wicked corner speed, it was never going to outdrag the 500 V4s to turn 1, or out of turn 12 to the finish line, so a win there was never likely. Great viewing, though.
Apologies for the mini-hijack...

[Desmo44]

This thread is suffering from maximum verbosity per post

What do you expect? This is a political discussion!

[Kropotkin]

WSBK has the set up just right I believe. The FIM are still the governing body, and InFront manage the rest. Lots of manufacturers playing, big grids and some good sponsorship/TV rights $$$ coming in.

WSBK rule-making is far more arbitrary than MotoGP. The rules are made by the Superbike Commission, but all they do is rubber stamp the decisions already made by the Flamminis. The Flamminis listen to the teams, but mainly follow their own interests. When it suits them to dump the factories, they dump the factories, but then again they can, as you can walk into any store in US or Europe and buy a bike off the shelf. It then takes a lot of preparing, but that's just a small matter of money. There are a lot of brands on the grid, but manufacturer involvement is not that high, it doesn't need to be as the bikes have already been designed and built. As for TV rights and sponsorship, Dorna subsidizes every team in every class to some extent. Infront is much less generous, hence the fact that there are several teams who only do the European rounds.

[Hanuman]

Honda did run the RS500 twin in Repsol colors. With Shinichi Ito if my memory is correct.

Takuma Aoki, I think, and also Gibernau once or twice. Further to the enlarged Aprilia, Jeremy McWilliams put one on pole at Phillip Island (hats off, son !) but while it had wicked corner speed, it was never going to outdrag the 500 V4s to turn 1, or out of turn 12 to the finish line, so a win there was never likely. Great viewing, though.
Apologies for the mini-hijack...

Shinichi and Tady, then Gibernau and poor Takuma.

The original enlarged Aprilia was ridden by Romboni and Reggiani, it wasn't the full 500cc closer to 400cc. The later bike that McWilliams got that Phillip Island pole position in 2000 (I was front row at the press conference!) was the larger 500cc'd one.

I also recall seeing an NSR500V at Eastern Creek?? Was just toying with the rest of the (FX??) Open class bikes

[GD66]

Yeah, that's right. Jeff Hardwick had one out here in Shell colours that had been a GP runner (West and Clarke I think) and John Allen rode it a few times in the domestic season.

[RatsMC]

While the NSR stuff is interesting, it is really off-topic. Can we cut it or take it to another thread?

[GD66]

Fair enough. Do you have a viewpoint on the determination rolling around last year that all the rule introductions and changes by Dorna were merely wallpapering over the cracks so the whole circus looked presentable to outside eyes as they were planning to put the whole MotoGP circus up for sale ?

[RatsMC]

Fair enough. Do you have a viewpoint on the determination rolling around last year that all the rule introductions and changes by Dorna were merely wallpapering over the cracks so the whole circus looked presentable to outside eyes as they were planning to put the whole MotoGP circus up for sale ?

I've never even heard that suggested. Probably because it makes no sense.Trying to sell the series now would be a terrible idea given the state of the economy and the series itself. Adding rule changes isn't going to increase the value of the series because it introduces a whole new set of variables whose effects are hard to quantify. None of the changes made would even make sense to someone who is not a fan of the series so seeing additional value in them seems unlikely.

[phoenix1]

After reading things in the CRT and rookie rules threads I thought maybe we should condense this into one subject. I'll throw some things up into the air so feel free to shoot them down if you have a better argument.

You must know many things to have an informed opinion of Dorna.

1. Dorna once had a sustainable relationship with a private equity firm. Before 2006, Dorna was paired with CVC (current F1 commercial rights owner). What happened in 2006? European courts forced CVC to sell their investment in MotoGP because CVC had invested in F1. MotoGP was at the peak of its popularity, and the credit meltdown was just 2 years away. Dorna had nothing to do with CVC investment in F1 or the European courts who forced CVC to sell MotoGP to Bridgepoint.

2. CRT is not a new rule; instead, CRT is the re-introduction of an old rule. CRT machines were always allowed in MotoGP until the FIM signed a contract with FGS (now IMS) to grant exclusive use of production machinery to WSBK. Again, a European court or arbitration company intervened by declaring the WCM 990cc MotoGP bike illegal. Imo, the WSBK homologation rules have changed since 2003, and Ezpeleta has used the economic recession to reintroduce a rule that never should have been eliminated. Unfortunately, the MSMA had reduced fuel capacity and engine count so severely that CRT was only useful with extra fuel and extra engines. The situation sucks, but Dorna had basically nothing to do with the 21L rule, the 800cc capacity rule, or the 6 engine rule.

Dorna are victims of a perfect storm of incompetence. Incompetence by EU regulators. Incompetence by the FIM. Incompetence by MSMA officials. Incompetence by central bankers and Western banking oversight. Incompetence by Bridgepoint Capital who overpaid tremendously for the rights to MotoGP. If Ezpeleta and Dorna can be brought to reckoning for any transgressions, reckoning would have to stem from the weak stance he took in 2004-5 regarding the 21L 800cc rules. He decided to trust the manufacturers even though he knew they were wrong b/c the MSMA had the backing of the FIM and IRTA.

Dorna are not responsible for anything that has happened up to this point; however, Dorna could be responsible for future detriment to the sport, if Ezpeleta continues to detail all of the underhanded marketing deals he uses to boost the value of the sport. Now is a dangerous time for Dorna b/c Bridgepoint are basically forcing them to pay off the $600M (rumored) price that Bridgepoint paid in 2006. I think we should always be skeptical of Dorna, but I don't think they can be blamed for the state of the sport.

[Zaphod]

Thank you very much for the clarification. Really appreciated.

[Zootalaws]

One thing we all need to keep in mind is DORNa is there to make money. The old FIM was more of a sanctioning body while the DORNA is more comparable to what Ecclestone is doing with F1. The upside to this is that the DORNA is trying to better promote GP than what the FIM ever did. The money is in TV and the DORNA has followed the trail of dollars ruthlessly. ...Back before DORNA toke over the reigns from the FIM...I feel DORNA in this case simply didn't look far enough down the road a couple of years back...If I'm not mistaken Repsol is one of the last big sponsors left in the Paddock so it's only natural DORNA will suck up to them.:

Just to add some clarification.

The FIM hasn't gone anywhere. They are still in exactly the same position as they were in 1992.

Dorna is the TV and commercial rights holder. Just, as you correctly stated, as is Ecclestone in F1. They recently re-signed in 2011 with IRTA for another five years.

The major players are: FIM, IRTA, Dorna and the MSMA. That is also the list of players in seniority and 'pull'. The FIM are the sports sanctioning body. Nothing happens in two-wheeled motorsport at an international level without the involvement of the FIM. IRTA 'owns' Grand Prix Motorcycle Road Racing - IRTA is the International Road-Racing Teams Association - a body formed in 1986 to represent GP racing. It is, in essence, the teams and riders. MSMA is the Motorcycle Sports Manufacturers’ Association and represents the bike manufacturers.

The racing is run on a daily basis by Dorna from a commercial perspective. They set up the contracts with the TV broadcasters, the tracks, the advertisers, the vendors. They organise the races. They are responsible for the staffing, support, safety, medical, housing the teams, providing facilities (power, water, network, security, telemetry, etc. - although a lot of that is contracted out to the racetrack). They 'own' the trademarked names - MotoGP, Moto2, Moto3, the logos, they are responsible for the TV coverage you see - they feed the broadcaster.

The sport is run by the Grand Prix Commission - a group with representatives from the four bodies. Race day is run by Race Direction, made up of Dorna, IRTA teams rep, IRTA riders rep and the FIM.

All of these disparate groups have rules and regulations to follow, and responsibilities to their respective bodies.

The responsibility of Dorna is to pay the teams, to put on 'the show'. I believe that one of their contract items with IRTA is that the racing has to have at least 16 riders on the grid - which they were looking likely to renege. Hence, the reason for CRT - they needed to boost numbers.

Ironically, it is Dorna and their continual push to play with the series rules that has created this massive cost barrier. Every time they make a new rule, teams have to redesign and start from scratch with their R&D. Although the other players could push back... but they don't - Dorna pays them a huge amount of money to race.

For a better explanation of the relationship, read Dennis Noyes article: http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/04/19/th ... of-motogp/

[Squidpuppet]

Ironically, it is Dorna and their continual push to play with the series rules that has created this massive cost barrier. Every time they make a new rule, teams have to redesign and start from scratch with their R&D. Although the other players could push back... but they don't - Dorna pays them a huge amount of money to race.

Welcome aboard. The above portion of your post will likely be discussed. I'll allow the better connected to explain.