Rossi to Yamaha!!

[Squidpuppet]

Great post. It would be a great battle between those two. I still find it odd that Yamaha would bring him back though. Rossi and Jorge would be taking points away from each other during the season, plus with the ultimatum Rossi gave, it just seems all too easy just to let him go back.

The thing that I try to keep in mind is that Yamahas original Dream Team Plan was to keep Rossi for marketing, all the way to his retirement and beyond, while nuturing the Hot Young Gun Lorenzo. Phase one out while phasing the other in. It is what they wanted all along. Now they can get it for free by requiring Rossi to bring jumbo sponsorship dollars. Rossi and Jorge stealing points from one another? Meh!!! They will still finish the season 1st and 2nd, or 2nd and 1st. They will win the Team Championship, the Constructors Championship and the individual World Championship. Its a mega WIN for Yamaha.

The only thing that Yamaha needs to be careful about is, keeping a finger on the pulse of Jorges attitude when Rossi wins some races. If Jorge remains true to his words that "It would be good for Yamaha to have two fast riders", then all is cool. But if Jorge starts becoming pissed off, they may need to take some type of action to prevent him from looking elsewhere for a ride. Not cool, but a possible reality.

In 2008 I grew weary of Rossis ego and stopped rooting for him, and started rooting for the underdog, Jorge, to take down the Master. Well it happened in 2010. I have continued to root for Jorge while he battled Casey last year and this.

Since then Rossi has had constant and large helpings of Humble pie. Non Stop. On and off the track. If Rossi goes back to Yamaha he will be served another significant slice. An epic slice...as a number 2 rider. Over the course of all this time Jorge has been gaining experience and improving his craft. He is no longer the Hot Young Kid, he is now a seasoned veteran. If Rossi goes to Yamaha for 2013 I may just end up rooting for the humbled-old-man-underdog to take down the established Spanish King.

[Cobbett]

If Rossi goes to Yamaha for 2013 I may just end up rooting for the humbled-old-man-underdog to take down the established Spanish King.

Along with a very sizeable proportion of the viewing audience, I'd have thought.

I do agree with your analysis. So long as Jorge isn't going to have a hissy fit it's all pluses, and as you say, at less expense to them than if he'd stayed all along. Though you do get the sense that someone has had to have a stern word in Jarvis's ear.

[dave_m]

Latest rumor has Rossi riding two more years for Yamaha in MotoGP, and then switching to WSBK in 2015. That may help keep Lorenzo from getting too unhappy, knowing he's still Yamaha long term plan in MotoGP.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

Does anyone recall a "hissy fit" after Catalunya, Sachsenring, or Brno in '09?
I think the quotes Gustav has shared in the other thread portend a great opportunity for both riders to behave like adults, and not prima donae. If they were to, say, each win a Championship in the next 2 years on the same bikes, barring injuries and the like, one would have to say "everybody wins".

Still, if I were Rossi, it would be a heavy burden to leave good people "stranded" at Ducati. Even though they would be considered "non-essential" to the team, they followed him over in - and he brought them with - the belief that was going to be a long-term plan. Presumably, they can all go to work for the team that fields Iannone, but everyone would probably feel much better if they were still working for Rossi, too.

[Squidpuppet]

Does anyone recall a "hissy fit" after Catalunya, Sachsenring, or Brno in '09?
.

No. But I remember a little feet stomping after Motegi '10.

[Gustav O]

Still, if I were Rossi, it would be a heavy burden to leave good people "stranded" at Ducati. Even though they would be considered "non-essential" to the team, they followed him over in - and he brought them with - the belief that was going to be a long-term plan. Presumably, they can all go to work for the team that fields Iannone, but everyone would probably feel much better if they were still working for Rossi, too.

Krop mentioned in his twitter that Yamaha did´n want all the "hangers on" but the crew would be fine to bring over. Apparently Rossi brought 15 persons ranging from crew to hospitality, press etc. They will not be back at Yamaha but JB and mechanics would as long as they can agree to the terms I guess.

[Albert]

Interesting thoughts!!

http://www.ducati.net/2012/08/rossi-did ... crew-dust/

[_M_]

Interesting thoughts!!

http://www.ducati.net/2012/08/rossi-did ... crew-dust/

An excellent summary.

VR is going to have to make one of the most difficult decisions of his career - and his life.

[Cobbett]

I must say I thought quite a lot of the comment in that link was contestable - and therefore the plus/minus conclusions dubious. The notion that no one thinks Rossi has lost it, and therefore that winning again on the Yam would prove nothing and be a "yawn", is the big one. I'm not among them myself, but I think quite a few people think that VR has lost his mojo; either way Rossi winning again, on any bike, would be box office, not a yawn.

[Squidpuppet]

I must say I thought quite a lot of the comment in that link was contestable - and therefore the plus/minus conclusions dubious. The notion that no one thinks Rossi has lost it, and therefore that winning again on the Yam would prove nothing and be a "yawn", is the big one. I'm not among them myself, but I think quite a few people think that VR has lost his mojo; either way Rossi winning again, on any bike, would be box office, not a yawn.

Agreed.

Also, I wonder what percentage of the fans would consider Rossi leaving Ducati as a blemish on his bike development skills resume anyway. How many actually care?

Certainly the majority of us super geeks will see it as no big deal because we understand that it is Ducati that has not been up to the challenge. Too few changes, with too much time between, and then they miss the mark.

What percentage of the casual Yellow 46 cap/T-shirt fans even care? They just want to see him mixing it up at the front and I suspect that they would support him regardless of where he went.

What about the Ducati fans. They were fans of the bikes because of the BIKE's personality.

Italians? I have no idea what is more important to them. That he remains "loyal" to Ducati or gets to race to his potential?

And, what percentage of all fans who are dissapointed by his departure would get over it darn quickly if he started winning again?

[Cam D]

Also, I wonder what percentage of the fans would consider Rossi leaving Ducati as a blemish on his bike development skills resume anyway. How many actually care?

Certainly the majority of us super geeks will see it as no big deal because we understand that it is Ducati that has not been up to the challenge. Too few changes, with too much time between, and then they miss the mark.

Obviously I don't make it into the ranks of super geek I for one don't think it is simply a case of Ducati not being up to the challenge. This marriage has never pulled together from the moment they said "I do".

[NudeKoala]

Also, I wonder what percentage of the fans would consider Rossi leaving Ducati as a blemish on his bike development skills resume anyway. How many actually care?

Certainly the majority of us super geeks will see it as no big deal because we understand that it is Ducati that has not been up to the challenge. Too few changes, with too much time between, and then they miss the mark.

Obviously I don't make it into the ranks of super geek I for one don't think it is simply a case of Ducati not being up to the challenge. This marriage has never pulled together from the moment they said "I do".

I'm with you Cam

[Squidpuppet]

Obviously I don't make it into the ranks of super geek I for one don't think it is simply a case of Ducati not being up to the challenge. This marriage has never pulled together from the moment they said "I do".

Every year the Aprilias improved with Rossi's input.

Every year the Hondas improved with Rossi's input.

Evey year the Yamahas improved with Rossi's input.

Every year the Ducatis...........

[marianbv]

Every year the Aprilias improved with Rossi's input.

Every year the Hondas improved with Rossi's input.

Evey year the Yamahas improved with Rossi's input.

Every year the Ducatis...........

Every year the Aprilias improved after Rossi left.

Every year the Hondas improved after Rossi left.

Evey year the Yamahas improved after Rossi left.

Let's see what will happen at Ducati Corse ...

[Squidpuppet]

Every year the Aprilias improved after Rossi left.

Every year the Hondas improved after Rossi left.

Evey year the Yamahas improved after Rossi left.

Let's see what will happen at Ducati Corse ...

Meet me back here in twelve months. Heck, eighteen months.

[Nachlauf]

Meet me back here in twelve months. Heck, eighteen months.

Make it something like 30 or 50 months, because the excuses will be coming in for a loooong time.

[Cam D]

Obviously I don't make it into the ranks of super geek I for one don't think it is simply a case of Ducati not being up to the challenge. This marriage has never pulled together from the moment they said "I do".

Every year the Aprilias improved with Rossi's input.

Every year the Hondas improved with Rossi's input.

Evey year the Yamahas improved with Rossi's input.

Every year the Ducatis...........

If he would only apply that awesomeness to the cure for Aids....

[Hanuman]

[quote="SquidpuppetAlso, I wonder what percentage of the fans would consider Rossi leaving Ducati as a blemish on his bike development skills resume anyway. How many actually care?

And, what percentage of all fans who are dissapointed by his departure would get over it darn quickly if he started winning again?[/quote]

My guess is, super geeks will remember his failure to get the Ducati working. And of them (us), there'll be some continued debate over the hows and whys.
But for 90% of people (and 99% of journalists ), all will be forgiven and forgotten should he win one race on another bike. It'll be a case of 'why did we ever doubt him?' [And bad news for Ducati if they don't get more competitive]

[Gar]

Every year the Aprilias improved after Rossi left.

Every year the Hondas improved after Rossi left.

Evey year the Yamahas improved after Rossi left.

Let's see what will happen at Ducati Corse ...

Meet me back here in twelve months. Heck, eighteen months.

And Honda went down the tubes for a period without Rossi. I didn't see improvement in '04 or '05, '06 questionable and the 800 was pretty weak at the start.

[Grahluk]

I think this rider as developer angle is waaay overblown by many. I say that by all the partisan pot shots or fawning praise heaped on riders (Rossi in particular) for the merits or lack of of a particular bike design. Are people that ignorant to think the end user can be blamed or praised for the design? Riders ride just like software users use an application. Their subjective opinion is limited to relating the experience with the product. It's the engineers & designers who's responsibility it is to turn that user feedback into something that addresses the complaints. That's it. It's that simple. In the case of this rider he's proved and been praised by several manufacturers for the quality of his feedback. It's up to them how they respond to it and if they meet those requests. In the case of Ducati it's been the same litany of requests since day one and before with other riders. I'd say Rossi's record of giving actionable feedback to constructors is much better than Ducati's record of giving usable solutions to requests.

[motor]

Another factor is the 2012 title - which is not yet exactly out of Casey's reach. I wonder how the dynamics will change if the 2012 title goes to Honda - that would mean Yamaha has not won a title since Rossi left.

[motor]

I'd say Rossi's record of giving actionable feedback to constructors is much better than Ducati's record of giving usable solutions to requests.

Agree with you, but I wouldn't be surprised if Rossi's feedback quality was not on the level of his Yamaha days - quite possible that the sheer distinctive and unpredictable nature of the Ducati might just have affected his own feedback. I'm not knocking Rossi here, but just feel that the Ducati platform has serious issues that has to be resolved from the engineering side first before a rider can start giving meaningful specific feedback.

For example, Rossi felt that the first version of GP12 was a good step forward, which made Ducati bring in in earlier during the 2011 season. While it did address the rear pumping, it was practically a POS.

Similar story with the initial irritation of the aluminium frame pieces - Rossi gave them the green light, but made no difference to their performance. Another example would be the aluminium swingarm, and so on.

I mean all these observations may or may not be correct, but for all we know, the Ducati engineering might be pointing these out to upper management and muttering, hey it's not (all) our fault, we did all he asked, but his feedback turned out to be wrong

[dave_m]

For example, Rossi felt that the first version of GP12 was a good step forward, which made Ducati bring in in earlier during the 2011 season. While it did address the rear pumping, it was practically a POS.

Similar story with the initial irritation of the aluminium frame pieces - Rossi gave them the green light, but made no difference to their performance. Another example would be the aluminium swingarm, and so on.

I mean all these observations may or may not be correct, but for all we know, the Ducati engineering might be pointing these out to upper management and muttering, hey it's not (all) our fault, we did all he asked, but his feedback turned out to be wrong

Isn't there a good argument to be made that if the GP11.1 ended up being a POS (as you described it), delaying it's adoption until the end of 2011 wouldn't really have helped Ducati. That was the bike they had started designing for 2012 before Rossi ever arrived, so it's probable they would be even farther behind right now if they were still using it. Secondly, while the aluminum frame hasn't necessarily shown a performance in lap times, isn't the lack of un-expected mid-corner lowsides a benefit?

I see the issue more as an illustration that there was much more work to be done than either Ducati or Rossi expected, and catching up to Yamaha and Honda might be more difficult than it sounds.

[allostef]

For me it all comes down to "what are developing skills". A rider needs to be able to tell to his engineer what the bike is exactly doing at what point. Some are better than this than others. But it's the engineer, together with the crew that needs to come up with solutions and that IMO is the problem at Ducati, they are not playing the game fast enough. You cannot even try to convince me that JB made 2 winning bikes with Rossi and has now lost it. They know the problems, they know the solutions but Ducati is deaf and blind at the same time. I think with the Germans from Audi into the picture they will have to listen because, it's or results due to "Deutsche Gründlichkeit" or bye bye "signore" and welcome "Mein Herr", look what they did to Lamborghini. Germans don't fool around, I worked there for 8 years, I know them all too well.

[motor]

Isn't there a good argument to be made that if the GP11.1 ended up being a POS (as you described it), delaying it's adoption until the end of 2011 wouldn't really have helped Ducati. That was the bike they had started designing for 2012 before Rossi ever arrived, so it's probable they would be even farther behind right now if they were still using it. Secondly, while the aluminum frame hasn't necessarily shown a performance in lap times, isn't the lack of un-expected mid-corner lowsides a benefit?

Hmm, yeah...agree