Marquez

[coyote]

This is Pedrosa on the incident:

"...when Jorge passed me [at that turn] it was a little different, but almost the same,” said Pedrosa. “I ran a little wide. I knew I left the door open. I didn't know if he was there, but I couldn't come back like no-one was there just in case.

Maybe, yes, Pol was a little behind at that moment, but also Marquez has to be aware that if you leave the door open someone can get in"

And I have to agree with Rusty on Stoner - Stoner was also very vocal about Rossi's moves at LS '08.

Pedrosea went well wide from the racing line, Lorenzo passed him on the racing line. Marquez didn't go wide of the racing line, Espargaro tried to pass him inside of the racing line.

[coyote]

nothing new

- what about the going at where you are looking point ?
- what about the noise the bikes make and being able to determine others positions because of that ? I have done some racing myself, and as Japhrodisiac confirms : you definitly know where others are simply by hearing them, especialy when bikes make som much noise like in GP's

you didn't respond to those, probably because they don't fit in your point of vieuw. all you do is repeating your same arguments.

The crowd making noise, the adrenaline of making a mistake and the save and getting going as fast as possible. Of course Marquez knew Espargaro was somewhere very close of him, I don't doubt that. I just don't see how he should've heard Espargaro was a meter to his left and half a bike behind rather than 20 cm to the left and a meter behind for example. There's that big of a difference in the sound in those cases? If the bikes are SO easily heard, certainly no rider should ever be surprised by a position of another bike ever, right?

you presume that this is a fact... I'm not gonna ask you why because you've said so a 100 times. All I'm saying there is more chances of your "important factor" being wrong then right.

I assume this is a fact, of course we can't be sure of anything that happened in that situation short of reading the guys minds. IMO it's a much bigger error if Espargaro didn't know where Marquez was than vice versa.

while I agree these are exceptional circumstances in MotoGP, they definitly are not in 125's, WSBK, WSSP, Moto2, ...
and again your "holy" argument that MM didn't know Pol was in his very close viscinity. Pol was there for laps and laps and laps. Surely Marc knew Pol would jump in the hole he created by goind wide, he would do the same thing if it were the other way round.

I meant that when riders are going side by side through a corner they of course know that the other guy is there, otherwise they would just take the other's space in the apex. If 2 guys go side by side through a left-right combo and then one guy pushes the other off track making him crash, we should be talking about race bans, bc there's no way you could say you didn't know the other guy was there.

As I said, I'm sure Marquez knew Espargaro was somewhere close to him, just not exactly know he was going to be heading to the apex there.

[coyote]

So you have no idea from when on Marquez saw Espargaro but still Marquez had sufficient time to avoid him? How does that make any sense? In my scenario (the one I believe in) he had milliseconds to make those adjustments, in other words not even close to enough.

A question: If riders are racing each other, they never have an obligation to slow down in any situation?

Marc had a choice, brace for impact, or avoid impact. He chose impact. We have seen that pass made a thousand times where the guy on the outside notices the inside guy and simply stands the bike up a little. Thousands of times. It's called clean racing.

And I'm saying he didn't have close to enough time to avoid impact. He also didn't choose anything IMO, the bracing looks completely instinctive.

BTW, if those lines are absolutely correct, where is there over a metre between Marquez' and Luthi's lines? Looks like under 50 cm clearly, also it shows how quickly Marquez got back to the racing line, in 20 metres or so, nothing dangerous or wrong with that.

[Rossifumi]

This is Pedrosa on the incident:

"...when Jorge passed me [at that turn] it was a little different, but almost the same,” said Pedrosa. “I ran a little wide. I knew I left the door open. I didn't know if he was there, but I couldn't come back like no-one was there just in case.

Maybe, yes, Pol was a little behind at that moment, but also Marquez has to be aware that if you leave the door open someone can get in"

And I have to agree with Rusty on Stoner - Stoner was also very vocal about Rossi's moves at LS '08.

Pedrosea went well wide from the racing line, Lorenzo passed him on the racing line. Marquez didn't go wide of the racing line, Espargaro tried to pass him inside of the racing line.

Dani was saying that Marquez left the door open and that Marquez should be aware that someone can get in and not to come back like no-one was there but I'll have to bow to your superior experience as you're clearly more qualified to judge than Dani Pedrosa on these matters

[Gar]

So Pedrosa is saying that Marquez should leave lots of room just like Dani did with Simoncelli at Le Mans?

[Rossifumi]

So Pedrosa is saying that Marquez should leave lots of room just like Dani did with Simoncelli at Le Mans?

Dani was on the kerb at Le Mans, he left Simoncelli the whole of the rest of the circuit.

[JanBros]

As I said, I'm sure Marquez knew Espargaro was somewhere close to him, just not exactly know he was going to be heading to the apex there.

Is there another one ?

[dave_m]

I actually don't think it's a case where Marquez just left the door open. Marquez opened the door, put out a large sign that said "pass here please", got Espargaro's attention, pointed out the sign and open door, and watched as Espargaro went through it. This is two laps from the end of the race, Espargaro, Iannone, Marquez and Luthi are all taking that corner at the limit, so it's not like Espargaro decided to take the corner faster and pass Marquez. Espargaro maintained his normal pace and took the inside line to avoid running into the back of Marquez after he slowed down.

Also, does anyone think Marquez would not have taken the exact same actions as Espargaro if he was behind someone who slowed and went offline? That's how he should have known someone was there, and used the whole rest of the track he he still had, rather than going through the line Espargaro was on.

[Cam D]

More pic here - http://www.twowheelsblog.com/galleria/marquez-espargaro-catalunya-crash-sequence/1

[Gar]

I actually don't think it's a case where Marquez just left the door open. Marquez opened the door, put out a large sign that said "pass here please", got Espargaro's attention, pointed out the sign and open door, and watched as Espargaro went through it. This is two laps from the end of the race, Espargaro, Iannone, Marquez and Luthi are all taking that corner at the limit, so it's not like Espargaro decided to take the corner faster and pass Marquez. Espargaro maintained his normal pace and took the inside line to avoid running into the back of Marquez after he slowed down.

Also, does anyone think Marquez would not have taken the exact same actions as Espargaro if he was behind someone who slowed and went offline? That's how he should have known someone was there, and used the whole rest of the track he he still had, rather than going through the line Espargaro was on.

In these scenarios it is not unusual for the rider on the outside to go down as well. I don't think there was a plan to knock Espargaro off.

[gixxerwimp]

Video Evidence (in 720p)

Marquez Chop, Exhibit A


Marquez Chop, Exhibit B


Marquez Chop, Nullified


Just for Fun

[Japhrodisiac]

Great video post!

These guys are all aware now of Marquez' bag of tricks, and I look forward to seeing how he reacts to them either nullifying his moves and/or feeding him his own moves back. Great read by Iannone

[Cam D]

Mudguard Ezpeleta is scrambling! Stoner gone, Florence couldn't win the fkn chook raffle down at the local if he was blowin' the ticket seller out the back, Lorenzo doesn't have the right coloured leathers... might as well get rid of the rule that he swore he wouldn't and hedge a bet on the Tunnel Visioned Terror of Cervera

Some humour from a punter on another site. The guy has a way with words hahahaha

[Japhrodisiac]

Esparagaro - on the other hand, pole position with an injured foot and Marquez not really a factor so far. I'm starting to like this Pol kid - reminds me of a young Gibernau in his disposition, only more agressive. A good bounce back from a negative weekend and best of luck to him.

[coyote]

Esparagaro - on the other hand, pole position with an injured foot and Marquez not really a factor so far. I'm starting to like this Pol kid - reminds me of a young Gibernau in his disposition, only more agressive. A good bounce back from a negative weekend and best of luck to him.

LOL, not a factor at all? That would be Luthi. Nice controlled ride to the championship lead when he didn't have the pace to win.

Did you see Marquez show how it's done in the last corner against Redding? I know such moves are too difficult for Pol to execute but he can always try to learn.

[Squidpuppet]

Did you see Marquez show how it's done in the last corner against Redding?

Redding schooled Marc.

[JanBros]

Did you see Marquez show how it's done in the last corner against Redding? I know such moves are too difficult for Pol to execute but he can always try to learn.

no, tell me : was it Marc or was it Scott that made a big error in that last corner

[sumone]

Hmm, wasn't it strange that marquez could only pass anyone on the hanger straight ?

[Faster1]

Did you see Marquez show how it's done in the last corner against Redding?

Redding schooled Marc.

+1 and so did Pol,, methodically pulling away on a spec bike,, takes talent..

[Japhrodisiac]

Esparagaro - on the other hand, pole position with an injured foot and Marquez not really a factor so far. I'm starting to like this Pol kid - reminds me of a young Gibernau in his disposition, only more agressive. A good bounce back from a negative weekend and best of luck to him.

LOL, not a factor at all? That would be Luthi. Nice controlled ride to the championship lead when he didn't have the pace to win.

Did you see Marquez show how it's done in the last corner against Redding? I know such moves are too difficult for Pol to execute but he can always try to learn.

Perhaps the careful reader would have noticed 2 things about my post - it followed QP, not the race, and used the words "so far". Further, I do see that Pol won the race, and Redding beat Marquez so I'm not clear on what point you are trying to make. Marquez has the lead because the former championship leader was pinched out at Montmelo, not because of his genius 3rd place at Silverstone.

[OZintheDesert]

did anyone notice how MM was sort of "left out" on the podium. It was as thought they barely acknowledged him there. Is there a serious disdain for him amongst other riders?

[Gar]

I doubt that Espargaro is a huge fan.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

Moderator Edit Warning:
Some of you will notice a bunch of posts have been deleted. I have removed everything after the point where I felt like the thread crossed over from the argumentative to the ridiculous. You all can be glad I removed your indiscretions. Now, you'd better behave...

[Zaphod]

Understood, and am Glad.

Now the others are awake to his tactics, they (the tactics) are shown to open more holes in his riding that anything else. Iannone is not shy of a battle, or riding loose. When MM chops him in the above vids, you can almost imagine his eyebrows raise slightly."Oh....really ?" one or two laps later..."Fine, you go to the outside, me.....I'm just gunna slip through the gaping hole you just left"

Reading a few articles, Marquez's team (via sponsorship $$$) has been able to invest in frame modifications the other teams cannot quite afford. That's fine....that's how the world works. The bent swingarm mod last year, the frame mods this year that make his bike a better handling thing than the other bikes using the same frame manufacturer.......and he still can't exploit it to beat guys who supposedly not the same class of talent he is supposed to be.

A carton of beer says he doesn't win the championship this year either.

He ain't no Lorenzo.

And my own opinion says he ain't no Pedrosa.

He's the new Hector (and that's, in my opinion, being very unkind to Hector)........with better connections/sponsorship.

[RatsMC]

He's the new Hector (and that's, in my opinion, being very unkind to Hector)........with better connections/sponsorship.

As much as I think Marquez crosses the line, I think he is a lot more like Simoncelli or even Lorenzo that Barbera. Barbera made really bone-headed moves that were dangerous but didn't really offer him any advantage. I remember watching him dive-bomb a corner ever single lap, nearly taking out the rider in front of him and then getting in so fast he had to come to a complete stop which allowed the rider he'd just passed to get back in front. He did the same thing like 6 or 7 times. I can't remember how many times I saw him run off-track the re-enter perpendicular to the racing line - without checking for traffic.

Lorenzo on the other hand, would race dirty but he would at least gain an advantage in doing so.