Marquez

[dave_m]

A move is definitely not made when you are 1/3 bike behind...He had 2-3 seconds to see Marquez would come to his line....[Marquez] was about 30 cm offline

At this point I have to assume you're no longer being serious, as the video and photos clearly show Espargaro even with Marquez. Video playback also shows less than 3 seconds between when Marquez recovered but was still well off line and the impact, so Espargaro obviously could not have had that much time to react. Also, his line changed by more than 30cm (less than 1 foot) when he lost the front, so to accept your version of the events, I have to ignore everything I've seen in the replays.

You still haven't addressed the fact that Espargaro was taking the inside line partly to avoid hitting Marquez, so he had every right to be there even under your scenario where he was still behind Marquez. After Marquez slowed and left his racing line, it was dangerous and irresponsible to re-enter his old racing line without making sure other riders were not there. This is the same reason riders aren't supposed to weave on the straight, or cut across the track for no reason, as it's unsafe for the following riders.

My main complaints about Marquez's move was that in addition to be unsafe, it was dumb. He wasn't going to lose very much time by doing the right thing and not running into Espargaro, so it wasn't worth the risk. By acting without thinking he cost himself a chance at first or second, as well ruining the race for Espargaro.

[RatsMC]

As to penalizing him, I don't think it helps. Unless there is a penalty where the infractor loses his finish in the race and the infractee (victim) gets the perpetrator's final placement, it doesn't fix anything. Nor does that help if they both go down, kamikaze-style.

They pretty much just need to warn the fear of God into him...

Apparently, the FIM overrode the penalty on Marquez. However, I think that the severity of the penalty was based on the fact that Marquez is on probation already rather than a reflection of the severity of the infraction.

[Gar]

I think it is clearly established that:

1) People disagree as to exactly what happened

and

2) debating it will change no opinions

Nothing to see here, move along.

[Squidpuppet]

I think it is clearly established that:

1) People disagree as to exactly what happened

and

2) debating it will change no opinions

Nothing to see here, move along.

The debate itself is why we are here, not the result.

[coyote]

Oh it was definitely Espargaros fault... Espargaro just tried to pass where there wasn't a gap.

And I already said I had no problem with Espargaro going inside to attempt the overtake.

??

Geez...

I don't have a problem with his initiative move to go inside, I have a problem with him continuing the move till the end when there clearly wasnt room for it. All clear?

[coyote]

A move is definitely not made when you are 1/3 bike behind...He had 2-3 seconds to see Marquez would come to his line....[Marquez] was about 30 cm offline

At this point I have to assume you're no longer being serious, as the video and photos clearly show Espargaro even with Marquez. Video playback also shows less than 3 seconds between when Marquez recovered but was still well off line and the impact, so Espargaro obviously could not have had that much time to react. Also, his line changed by more than 30cm (less than 1 foot) when he lost the front, so to accept your version of the events, I have to ignore everything I've seen in the replays.

You still haven't addressed the fact that Espargaro was taking the inside line partly to avoid hitting Marquez, so he had every right to be there even under your scenario where he was still behind Marquez. After Marquez slowed and left his racing line, it was dangerous and irresponsible to re-enter his old racing line without making sure other riders were not there. This is the same reason riders aren't supposed to weave on the straight, or cut across the track for no reason, as it's unsafe for the following riders.

My main complaints about Marquez's move was that in addition to be unsafe, it was dumb. He wasn't going to lose very much time by doing the right thing and not running into Espargaro, so it wasn't worth the risk. By acting without thinking he cost himself a chance at first or second, as well ruining the race for Espargaro.

Again, he was never FULLY alongside. What I meant by 3 seconds was that Pol had plenty of time to observe what Marquez was doing between his moment and the contact.

Clearly we seem to be having access to different replays since I for the life of me can't understand where you find all the space Marquez goes wide after losing the front. His line through the corner is virtually identical.

Like I said I have no problem with Espargaro going to the inside, even with Marquez being on the racing line instantly.

Your last point is moot. Clearly Marquez didn't know Esparagro was there so of course he was going to take the fastest line through the corner, having lost over .5 for the fight for victory with 2 to go.

[coyote]

This just doesn't add up.

How does the rider behind hit the rider in front if the rider in front is going faster?

The only way that this could occur is if the rider in front takes a radical line through the corner.

That is not the only possibility. The are on two separate trajectories that cross at one point and they arrive almost at the same time even though one is travelling faster than the other. Their speeds were not several mph apart either.

Exactly. Marquez is arriving to the contact point at a wider angle so of course he's able to carry more speed.

[tom]

I don't have a problem with his initiative move to go inside, I have a problem with him continuing the move till the end when there clearly wasnt room for it. All clear?

Here is where your making your mistake coyote. I don't mean this in a negative way but you don't really understand whats possible on a bike when you are on the limit going into a corner.

By definition these guys are using all the traction available at any point in a corner. When you are on the limit going into a corner, tightening your line is not possible without sacrificing your breaking. Nether is breaking harder without sacrificing your line and running wide. From the moment Espargaro made the decision to go left around Marquez he was committed to this line and there was nothing he could have done other than balance keeping tight with breaking, which he did for as long as it was absolutely possible. There was a significant difference in speed resulting in the gap between the two rapidly shrinking.

The only person that could have taken evasive measures was Marquez. He was on the outside and if he had a bit more awareness for the plight of other riders that may be doing their best to avoid him and not cross the racing line, then he still would have made the corner and been in the box seat for the following corner, in all likelihood avoiding collision and not loosing position. But that's hind sight for you and it is arguable whether this should be expected of him.

Out of interest can you see the trouble Espargaro's bike is in as he desperately tries to fit into a rapidly shrinking space? Look at the inboard camera footage and also the footage from inside the corner. He is pitched back and forward on the bike as the front loads and unloads, he is in survival mode, contrast this to Marquez who after the save is immediately in attacking the corner mode.

There was absolutely nothing Espargaro could have done to avoid that collision and to attribute any blame to him doesn't sit well with most, which is why you are getting grief from others.

[tom]

This just doesn't add up.

How does the rider behind hit the rider in front if the rider in front is going faster?

The only way that this could occur is if the rider in front takes a radical line through the corner.

That is not the only possibility. The are on two separate trajectories that cross at one point and they arrive almost at the same time even though one is travelling faster than the other. Their speeds were not several mph apart either.

Exactly. Marquez is arriving to the contact point at a wider angle so of course he's able to carry more speed.

He was coming from a much lower speed and wide of the racing line with a bike that was now composed and well under the limit, so he had the option of pinning the throttle and apexing later, crossing the racing line in the process. This simply gave the rider behind nowhere to go. Again I think racing incident but perhaps more experienced( or more considerate depending in your opinion I guess) rider would be more aware of the riders behind after recovering from a major moment.

[dave_m]

There was absolutely nothing Espargaro could have done to avoid that collision and to attribute any blame to him doesn't sit well with most, which is why you are getting grief from others.....This simply gave the rider behind nowhere to go. Again I think racing incident

This is exactly right. While I may disagree and think it was more than a racing incident, I don't have a problem with anyone who thinks it was a racing incident. It happened at very high speed and Marquez was able to recover pretty quickly, and I don't think he intentionally tried to cause Espargaro to crash. But there was nothing Espargaro could do, and nowhere he could go when he was on the inside and Marquez came across his line, so I don't see how he should get any blame.

[WayneG]

Interesting discussion but I still for the life of me I still can't see it as anymore than a racing incident. I don't see anything deliberately dangerous or aggressive in MM actions.



NOTE: This is the widest MM goes at any point in the incident. I have to agree with coyote that is not significantly (50cm?) of the "normal" racing line when compared with the leading bikes.

At this point MM has recovered from the slide and is back on the gas. ESP is 2 bike lengths behind at this point. This is the point at which I would expect MM to check for inside traffic. Would he have seen ESP at this point? Debatable IMO and certainly enough doubt to make labeling MM as a "liar" a very harsh condemnation.


At this point IMO MM is already back on the racing line (when compared to Luthi in front). To my eyes he maintains the racing line until the collision, there is no hint of deliberate swerving or squeezing of ESP.

This is the first point that there is an overlap between the bikes. The gap to the kerb is already naturally closing due to MM being back on the racing line.






Other will probably continue to see it differently but I see nothing that was DELIBERATELY done by MM to squeeze ESP. I also believe MM's assertion that he did not see ESP. To call him a liar (especially emphasizing it by using the FACT statement) would require powers of clarvoyancy that I don't possess. Racing incident, move along nothing more to see here.
Let the debate continue.

[RatsMC]

Okay, both side of this debate have taken their opinions a bit to the extremes. coyote, this was definitely not Espargaro's fault since he could not have predicted Marquez coming so far into the corner. You can argue this all you want but you are alone in the opinion Marquez didn't make a fairly radical move back into the racing line. The line Marquez took was in no way normal or predictable.

At the same time, Espargaro took the opportunity that Marquez presented. Unfortunately, the lag between seeing the opportunity and getting a 600cc bike up to speed to take advantage of it was long enough the he exposed himself to Marquez making a maneuver that any 16 year old racer would make.

Unfortunately, Marquez is 19 and should know better.

Essentially, what we have here is a racing incident. However, it was a racing incident that Marquez was entirely in control of and could have prevented with just a little bit more wisdom.

For this incident alone, Marquez deserves a stern talking to. However, he has already been warned and has been punished less severely than he should have been so I think it is fair to come down harshly on any slip he might have. And this was definitely a slip on his part.

[Gustav O]

Okay, both side of this debate have taken their opinions a bit to the extremes. coyote, this was definitely not Espargaro's fault since he could not have predicted Marquez coming so far into the corner. You can argue this all you want but you are alone in the opinion Marquez didn't make a fairly radical move back into the racing line. The line Marquez took was in no way normal or predictable.

I totally do not agree with this.
Looking at Waynes pics above it is clear that Marquez is not on a extremly weird line or closing his line to any extreme. Espargaro aims for that same piece of tarmac as it is the apex and where you want to be to get the correct line out of the corner and in to the next. Espargaro sees Marquez sliding and aims for the inside as he thinks that either Marquez would go even wider and/or that he will be able to capitalize on Marquez slide and hit the apex before him. That is racing and he took the chance of overtaking but chances include risk and the risk he took came through.
I don´t say he was in the wrong, nor Marquez, but Espargaro gambled a bit and we all expect them to do that while racing.

[RatsMC]

Okay, both side of this debate have taken their opinions a bit to the extremes. coyote, this was definitely not Espargaro's fault since he could not have predicted Marquez coming so far into the corner. You can argue this all you want but you are alone in the opinion Marquez didn't make a fairly radical move back into the racing line. The line Marquez took was in no way normal or predictable.

I totally do not agree with this.
Looking at Waynes pics above it is clear that Marquez is not on a extremly weird line or closing his line to any extreme. Espargaro aims for that same piece of tarmac as it is the apex and where you want to be to get the correct line out of the corner and in to the next. Espargaro sees Marquez sliding and aims for the inside as he thinks that either Marquez would go even wider and/or that he will be able to capitalize on Marquez slide and hit the apex before him. That is racing and he took the chance of overtaking but chances include risk and the risk he took came through.
I don´t say he was in the wrong, nor Marquez, but Espargaro gambled a bit and we all expect them to do that while racing.

I don't completely disagree with this. I do think that Marquez should have expected a shot up the inside and his move towards it was rash. There wasn't a reason for him to close in that quickly, his line would have been more direct had he not. Like I said, he deserved a talking to because he has displayed a lack of concern for where other riders are likely to be on the track. Any penalty should be a 'we warned you about this the last time you took someone out - pay attention'.


Again, like I said, it was the mistake of a 16 year old, nothing more. The problem is that Marquez is older and has injured riders in the past. If that wasn't enough for him to learn a lesson from, something else needs to be done.

[JanBros]

but Espargaro gambled a bit and we all expect them to do that while racing.

gambling = guessing an outcome with no real info at all that would give you an indication of what the outcome is going to be.

espargaro sees MM losing momentum. That is a clear indication for Pol he is going to be faster through the corner and probably beat MM to the apex. after all, he did make up 2 bikelength's in what ? 100m ? That is a lot. I don't call that gambling

[WayneG]

Suffice to say I disagree with your assessment Rats but that's fine you obviously disagree with mine so we cancel each other out.

[Rossifumi]

completely agree with Rats on this one. This was an entirely avoidable incident if Marquez had just left one bike width when Espargaro was alongside (whether it was 75%, 90%, 100%....). I believe Marquez when he says he didn't see Espargaro just as I'd believe him if he said he didn't realise Wilairot would be there at PI, but to me, that's his mistake, he should be aware.

[RatsMC]

completely agree with Rats on this one. This was an entirely avoidable incident if Marquez had just left one bike width when Espargaro was alongside (whether it was 75%, 90%, 100%....). I believe Marquez when he says he didn't see Espargaro just as I'd believe him if he said he didn't realise Wilairot would be there at PI, but to me, that's his mistake, he should be aware.

I think that is the main thing here: Marquez should have been more aware than he has been. He doesn't think ahead other riders pay the price for it.


I have rarely owned a car but I drove a semi (lorry for you brits) for a long time and since those thing don't stop or accelerate at any speed capable of getting you out of danger, you needed to learn to track the vehicles around you even with very limited visibility. The drivers who never got into an accident were the best at this. It is also why I've never been in a bike accident at over 10MPH.

Marquez, is rash and uncontrolled. That's the spirit that makes a racer but it is also the spirit that needs to be tempered in order to make a champion. Lorenzo is a case study in this.

[coyote]

Here is where your making your mistake coyote. I don't mean this in a negative way but you don't really understand whats possible on a bike when you are on the limit going into a corner.

By definition these guys are using all the traction available at any point in a corner. When you are on the limit going into a corner, tightening your line is not possible without sacrificing your breaking. Nether is breaking harder without sacrificing your line and running wide. From the moment Espargaro made the decision to go left around Marquez he was committed to this line and there was nothing he could have done other than balance keeping tight with breaking, which he did for as long as it was absolutely possible. There was a significant difference in speed resulting in the gap between the two rapidly shrinking.

The only person that could have taken evasive measures was Marquez. He was on the outside and if he had a bit more awareness for the plight of other riders that may be doing their best to avoid him and not cross the racing line, then he still would have made the corner and been in the box seat for the following corner, in all likelihood avoiding collision and not loosing position. But that's hind sight for you and it is arguable whether this should be expected of him.

Out of interest can you see the trouble Espargaro's bike is in as he desperately tries to fit into a rapidly shrinking space? Look at the inboard camera footage and also the footage from inside the corner. He is pitched back and forward on the bike as the front loads and unloads, he is in survival mode, contrast this to Marquez who after the save is immediately in attacking the corner mode.

There was absolutely nothing Espargaro could have done to avoid that collision and to attribute any blame to him doesn't sit well with most, which is why you are getting grief from others.

Why do you think Espargaro needs to brake to avoid Marquez when both are moving towards the exit of a corner accelerating at probably 50%+ throttle? All he needed to do is roll off the throttle slightly while maintaining the same line and there wouldn't be any problems. Unlike Marquez, he knew what the situation between the tow bike was all the time so certainly he's in a better position to take evasive measures.

[coyote]

He was coming from a much lower speed and wide of the racing line

Lower speed, yes. Wide of the racing line, no. Marquez doesn't ride around the corner in a unique way that would indicate he was purposely taking Espargaro's space away, but he used the normal racing line.

Esparagro did have a place to go, "backwards", by slowing his speed slightly.

[Rossifumi]

Lower speed, yes. Wide of the racing line, no. Marquez doesn't ride around the corner in a unique way that would indicate he was purposely taking Espargaro's space away, but he used the normal racing line.

Esparagro did have a place to go, "backwards", by slowing his speed slightly.

Disagree on the line, Marquez was already wide after being passed by Luthi on the way in to the corner as well as running wide due to losing the front, but forgetting that for now - If Marquez' speed has slowed enough that Espargaro has made up 2 bike lengths in about 30m (as the pictures show above) a rider in his fifth season at World Championship Grand Prix level should be aware of the possibility of a rider coming through and then should leave a bike width given that there was one alongside - as Pedrosa showed when passed by Lorenzo. Forgiveable mistake in a first year club racer but not at one step below the top international level of the sport.

[coyote]

Okay, both side of this debate have taken their opinions a bit to the extremes. coyote, this was definitely not Espargaro's fault since he could not have predicted Marquez coming so far into the corner. You can argue this all you want but you are alone in the opinion Marquez didn't make a fairly radical move back into the racing line. The line Marquez took was in no way normal or predictable.

At the same time, Espargaro took the opportunity that Marquez presented. Unfortunately, the lag between seeing the opportunity and getting a 600cc bike up to speed to take advantage of it was long enough the he exposed himself to Marquez making a maneuver that any 16 year old racer would make.

Unfortunately, Marquez is 19 and should know better.

Essentially, what we have here is a racing incident. However, it was a racing incident that Marquez was entirely in control of and could have prevented with just a little bit more wisdom.

For this incident alone, Marquez deserves a stern talking to. However, he has already been warned and has been punished less severely than he should have been so I think it is fair to come down harshly on any slip he might have. And this was definitely a slip on his part.

Yes it was Espargaros fault (you guys just need some time to see that ). Of course he should've known Marquez would've come to the inside considering he was practically on the racing line all the time and he never indicated in any way that he saw Esparagaro to his inside. There was nothing radical about Marquez' movement in that incident, it was very predictable to see where he was going.

Thank you a lot Wayne for that compilation, it explains perfectly what I've been trying to say and I would have made one if I had the skills.

Marquez makes the mistake, loses only momentum but very little "width", meaning he's in a position to squirt his bike straight onto full speed. As we can see, this is naturally the most probable position Marquez checks if there is a rider in his close vicinity; as we can see Pol is 2 bikes behind so there is no chance for Marquez to see him. Taking this into consideration Marquez starts to minimize the time lost to the leaders by optimizing his line to be the racing line though the corner (naturally, when he deviated from that by a miniscule amount). He then continues towards the kerbing as usual up until the last point he senses Espargaro is on his inside. Unfortunately the gap between the two bikes at this point is approximately 26 cm so he can't do anything else than instinctively tuck his knee and shoulder away to protect himself.

Let me repeat that I've seen the situation, where a rider goes wide, then cuts across the front of the rider coming from behind in a way that, if the rider behind takes the corner in his normal speed, would have resulted in a crash, countless times. That we are not talking about all those moves is because the riders behind had the common sense to roll off the throttle and line up behind.

[coyote]

I don't completely disagree with this. I do think that Marquez should have expected a shot up the inside and his move towards it was rash. There wasn't a reason for him to close in that quickly, his line would have been more direct had he not. Like I said, he deserved a talking to because he has displayed a lack of concern for where other riders are likely to be on the track. Any penalty should be a 'we warned you about this the last time you took someone out - pay attention'.
.

I don't think Espargaro was likely to be there for Marquez. What I do think was unfortunate was the distance between the two riders before Marquez' moment: big enough so that Espargaro could adjust his line without losing momentum instead of having to avoid Marquez there by going wide, but small enough so that he made it so close to Marquez in track position when both reached the collision point of their lines.

[coyote]

espargaro sees MM losing momentum. That is a clear indication for Pol he is going to be faster through the corner and probably beat MM to the apex.

This is exactly the point I was making. Yes, it was and indication for Pol that he had the chance to beat Marquez to the apex (or in his mind it was probable). That is fine. The fact is though that he didn't beat Marquez to the apex and this should've been clear to him soon enough so that he could've rolled off to avoid the contact. The people who think this is impossible task for Espargaro to do, then clearly he shouldn't be competing in a sport like this.

[Rossifumi]

The fact is though that he didn't beat Marquez to the apex and this should've been clear to him soon enough so that he could've rolled off to avoid the contact. The people who think this is impossible task for Espargaro to do, then clearly he shouldn't be competing in a sport like this.

Espargaro arrived at the apex level with Marquez - that is sufficient for him to be given a bike with and not be run right of the track; same as Luthi at Qatar