2009's exiled riders

[carty]

I don’t think this has been specifically covered in another thread so thought I’d start a new one for the discussion. I was just looking through the final standings for 2009 and was surprised by how relatively well some of the riders we are losing next year performed in this year’s competition.

Conversely, some of the guys who have been lauded and reported as making ‘good impressions’ / ‘big improvements’ have not done well at all.

Examples

Toni Elias. Yes he was on a ‘factory bike’ but he finished 4 places higher in the WC than RDP yet Elias has ‘underperformed’ and is out but RDP stays in? Were the bikes that different? Why is RDP favoured over Tiger Toni?

Alex De Angelis. I’m not his biggest fan, but a top 10 finish in the WC and flashes of brilliance put him higher up in my estimation than some riders with seats next year. Why has he been shown the door so early?

Chris Vermeulen. Only 4 points behind his aging team mate. Still regarded as a wet weather master he was a good chance for a podium in all wet races and he rarely makes big mistakes, he’s just been on a poor bike. I think it’s a great shame we’re losing him from MotoGP.

Mika Kallio. He kept Stoner’s bike warm while he was on holiday and commentators have been raving about him all year. Yet he finished 33 points behind Hayden when Kallio himself reported no differences between the Pramac and Marlboro bikes. Why is he favoured to remain in MotoGP over Elias / De Angelis / Vermeulen? I think he’s good, but he hasn’t performed great in my opinion.

I understand that personal sponsorship money and country of origin often play a large part in why riders obtain and maintain their positions but from a purely skills based perspective I think we are losing some big talent from the premier class and some guys who are staying should probably have gone instead. Obviously the ideal situation would be to keep everyone and just swell the grid with extra bikes but that doesn’t seem likely in this climate!

Thoughts anyone?

Cheers,
Matt

[Rossifumi]

Regarding Elias - he was 'forced' to ride the factory bike when Dani and Dovi rejected the 09 chassis so I'd agree that he's very unfortunate to be out of the class

[The Scribe]

Toni Elias. Yes he was on a ‘factory bike’ but he finished 4 places higher in the WC than RDP yet Elias has ‘underperformed’ and is out but RDP stays in? Were the bikes that different? Why is RDP favoured over Tiger Toni?

Mika Kallio. He kept Stoner’s bike warm while he was on holiday and commentators have been raving about him all year. Yet he finished 33 points behind Hayden when Kallio himself reported no differences between the Pramac and Marlboro bikes. Why is he favoured to remain in MotoGP over Elias / De Angelis / Vermeulen? I think he’s good, but he hasn’t performed great in my opinion.

Regarding RdP, he was 4 places behind Elías, but with a difference of only 9 points in the final standings. I´d say the injury he suffered right after Donington is what lead him to this place, and without it, he would have been 7th instead of 11th. In any case, I agree that Elias is good enough to deserve a ride next year, so let´s hope he is back at some point in the future.

Kallio's case is different. You could turn your point and say that, being a rookie, he´s only finished 33 points behind an official rider with 7(8?) years of experience. He has done good races, but tends to crash too often, so he has a good margin to improve. If next year he is able to just stay on the bike, he will improve very much his final position in the Championship. I think he deserves another chance.

[RatsMC]

Elias is way to erratic and you can count him out for the first half of the year - every year. He would probably still have a ride if he could even out the results but a rare podium does not really make up for running around at the back most of the time.

Kallio, I feel has always been given more credit than he has earned. At the start of the year, I hoped to see him do well but that never materialized. And yet, there is a ton of hype around the guy. I can't help but feel a Crutchlow or Rea deserves the ride more than Kallio.

Vermeulen has never really caught my attention but I firmly believe that if he and Bautista were on the same bike, Bautista loses.

De Angelis just pissed people off and that is the honest answer. His departure isn't based on results.

[JoeKing]

Its all a matter of ..perception

All of the above mentioned riders were never going to be World Champion & with 4 "potential" champions coming into the class room had to be made for them. Obviously, most of them won't become WC either; it is just the natual flow of the class.

Elias, Vermeulen, & De Angelis weren't "upwardly trending" in their results, so teams/sponsors were looking for new blood in the hope of success. Its simply the laws of the jungle..eat or be eaten....& next year we'll have the same discussion about who didn't live up to expectations & was replaced with the "next future" champ & on & on.

I also believe that with the 3.5 dominent riders setting the standard so high, this not living up to potential factor will exacerbate the turn-over.

[motorhead]

If you look Kallio vs his teammates the thing is different. He was pretty fearless, but crashed too many times becouse of that...Thing he said about the small difference between satellite and factory bikes could be just words. It was the factory bikes which ruled this year, hopefully satellite teams are able to fight for the podiums next year. I think Kallio got the talent and without those crashes he could stand much higher in the standings...it was a rookie year, next year he has to calm a bit and finish races

[RatsMC]

I'm still not very convinced. His best finish was 7 while his average finish (when he did finish) was 9th-10th out of a field of 17 riders. That's better than some rookie seasons but considering he was on the factory bike for some of that, still not much better than West did on the Kawasaki in his rookie year.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

Nearly every rookie is going to be given a sophomore year, unless he is just a bowling ball, or runs out of cash (or both if your name is Takacrashi).

That is why Toseland was quickly re-upped for '09 back in mid-'08, and Kallio was extended to next year; they both showed promise.

DeAngelis did not show anything more in his two years of MotoGP than he did in his several years in 250cc, so he needs sponsor money to keep racing. The fact that he can be likened to a torpedo is not good for most sponsors.

Elias would be getting a ride if: a). he hadn't already spent at least one year on nearly every bike left on the grid , and b). there could be more than 17-18 rides. The cruel reality for him is that he has never been on the same bike for 2 years in a row. He is the easiest guy to defend as being better than his record indicates.

Vermeulen, like Hopkins, was at the wrong place at the wrong time (for 4 years!). Since he doesn't have Capirex' legacy, he would have needed to trounce him to keep that ride.

[carty]

Its all a matter of ..perception

All of the above mentioned riders were never going to be World Champion

Hey Joe,

The point I'm trying to make is that there are some guys staying in the series that most of us would agree are never going to be a future WC either. RDP and Capirossi for example. Arguably, some of the guys who are leaving should still be given rides as they are young and still have potential to improve.

The Gresini boys finished 7th and 8th in the WC, that's pretty good when you have the four 'untouchables', Mr Colin 'consistent' Edwards on the best satellite bike in 5th and Dovi on the other factory Honda in 6th. I don't see how they could have been expected to do any better really!

However,

RDP 11th. I like Randy but I really don't see why he is preferred over any of the guys leaving
Kallio 15th. Again I don't see why he is preferred over any of the guys leaving. To me, he hasn't shown he has got anything extra over any of them, but I guess as Rusty points out every one is given a second year to show improvement.

I know that the Gresini team wanted to capture the talent of Simoncelli and also to take advantage of Melandri becoming available - but I will be very surprised if Gresini gets higher than 7th/8th in the WC next year.....

I guess I'm just lamenting losing Elias, I've always liked him and he's the only one out of the guy's leaving to have had a hand in deciding a WC (when he batteld with Rossi that day at Estoril in 2006!)

Cheers,
Matt

[KTM]

With Elias out of Motogp it is obvious that Motogp does not have the best riders in it.
Kallio, De Puniet, Capirossi(no disrespect but too old) Dovisioso with full factory backing can only manage 6th please , no excuses.


Dorna step in and save Melandri last year and provide him with a ride, and even go to the extent of creating a new team , yet
they won't do the same for Elias. What a joke Motogp is becoming. It definately does not have the best riders in it.....

If you are not in a factory team forget it. Is this not a great shame ........

Elias has the most podiums out of any rider whilst in a satelite team for the last four years and finishes 7 this year .......

Dorna should be sacked over this monumental stuff up . Elias should be in

Dare I say it, the magnificent 4 are not that magnificent. Maybe it should be the magnificent one( Rossi)
Its just the other three have factory rides


No more a Moto gp fan

[carty]

@ KTM, stronger words but I think you're basically saying the same thing as me! (Apart from the last bit about the magnificent 4, I don't understand that, they are all magnificent!)

[KTM]

Thanks Carty,

Good to see not everyone is getting the wool pulled over their eyes. And of course they are all magnificent, I just would have loved to see Elias
on a factory ride. I think he would have matched them

[CLX]

There are not enough bikes for the talent pool. We could easily have 24 bikes on the grid and you'd be sure to not have hopeless pay riders hanging around.

[JoeKing]

I guess I'm just lamenting losing Elias, I've always liked him and he's the only one out of the guy's leaving to have had a hand in deciding a WC (when he batteld with Rossi that day at Estoril in 2006!)



Carty

Sorry to have disrespected your man (Elias); but I think you have to consider the French TV viewership factor when considering RDP; besides his 2011 status is quite suspect.

I was thinking about how Stoner's 2007 championship must have permanently changed the landscape. While his 250 career was impressive (especially considering his equipment) & his first year in MotoGP showing "flashes" of brilliance....2007's total domination & to an extent, everyone elses inability to tame the Ducati demonstrated that any really good 250 rider can "mature" into a MotoGP champion; hense the (3) 250 "stars" & (obviously) Spies getting rides. What Stoner's performance did was to accelerate under performing riders "sell-by date".

With so few rides available, Elias, Vermeulen & DeAngelis just ran out of time. If another great 250 or SBK (Rea) talent emerges, anyone (beside the Aliens) might be shown the door.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

Speaking of Estoril '06:


This picture is too big to post here, so you must follow the link:
http://www.motograndprix.it/download/motogp/wallpaper2006/MOTOGP_ESTORIL_//Toni_Elias_Estoril_1.JPG

[RatsMC]

Elias can inspire but too rarely and typically only when he is scratching for a ride. Of course, it should be noted that the guy has been in MotoGP far longer than any of the guys leaving (2005) so having more podiums makes sense.

There are always riders in MotoGP who probably don't belong there but that is always going to be the case. The smaller teams can't afford the salaries of the top guys so they get someone who is willing to ride cheap just to be in the big show. That is not to say they are terrible riders, they are brilliant, they just aren't at the same.

So Elias falls into a sort of higher bracket than say, Talmasci but Talmasci brings in money - he essentially pays for his seat. This means that for an Elias, the competition is stiffer. He needs to perform better than the lower half of the field in order to maintain his ride.

In my mind, the problem isn't that Elias has to go, it is that others have the ability to pay to ride (as CLX said).

It is pretty easy to argue that MotoGP does have the best riders but you can't argue that the entire grid is made of of the best riders.

But then the same could be said for WSBK. Lascorz is stuck on a second rate bike in WSS after beating Crutchlow and Laverty and Sofuoglu on that bike on multiple occasions. This, to me is a far greater in justice than Elias going back to Moto2.


Added:

Thanks Rusty. Great stuff. Seeing KR in those leathers always startles me. Because his speedhump is a differetn color, it alwasy looks like a hoody sticking out of the back of his leathers which is the way a lot of the guys I ride with in Oakland ride in winter. That along with his general size and shape reminds me of home.

[KTM]

OK Rats, Elias has at least one podium in every year he has been in MOTOGP which is far better than the other riders whilst on satelite machinery..

[Gustav O]

The political factors have been a bit over looked so far. Dorna do a lot of suspect things and giving rides/financial help to riders that can attract Tv-coverage is one of those things.
That is partly the reasons De Angelis and Elias are out - they are from countries that already have a lot of better riders, to say the least.
De Puniet and Kallio get to stay partly because of where they origin from and this also make them interesting for the smaller teams, who they accidently ride for, as Dorna will support them with money.

I know for a fact that Marcel Shcrötter, German 125GP rider, was denied a place in the class for 2010 with his own team partly due to the "german factor" being covered with Bradl and Folger. The list unfortunately goes on

[slojo]

Elias would be getting a ride if: a). he hadn't already spent at least one year on nearly every bike left on the grid , and b). there could be more than 17-18 rides. The cruel reality for him is that he has never been on the same bike for 2 years in a row. He is the easiest guy to defend as being better than his record indicates.

Elias was actually on the Gresini Honda for 2006 and 2007 (courtesy of his last gasp Estoril win), then again this year in 2009, that's 2 years in a row I think?

Anyway, I think anyone who thinks competing in top level motorsport is purely about talent is being more ideological than practical. Ultimately it comes down to money, racing is for the benefit of the sponsors first and fans second, think Carlos Checa. Since Fortuna pulled out, it appears Elias hasn't had the financial backing to bring to the contract negotiating table.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

Uh, huh...
Know of any differences between 2006 and 2007?
Same team, yes. Same bike...?

Having ridden the Ducmonster (in '08) for an imploding team owner and then going back to a Honda that was completely different in '09 than it was in '07, DOES qualify as different. Re-iterating carty's point, 7th place after all that is pretty darned good.

[Faster1]

OK Rats, Elias has at least one podium in every year he has been in MOTOGP which is far better than the other riders whilst on satelite machinery..

,,which makes it more perplexing in that some races he toils around fighting for 10th. He's good and I wished he had another year on the Honda but, he lost the seat for lack of consistency,, not lack of speed.

Then there is also the-race-within-the-race,,, be the best in your team "usually" helps. Caprix deserves to stay versus Vermeulin by a country mile. He rode above the abilities of the Sazook enough times to secure is place,, and bonus points for not accepting "slow" and crashing for the sake of trying.

Kallio out-did Canepa (previously a Duc test rider?) - position secured...

and,, didn't Elias turn down a return back to the Primac (for no pay) or was that someone else

[Oscar]

Then there is also the-race-within-the-race,,, be the best in your team "usually" helps. Caprix deserves to stay versus Vermeulin by a country mile. He rode above the abilities of the Sazook enough times to secure is place,, and bonus points for not accepting "slow" and crashing for the sake of trying.

Capirex is one of my all-time favourite riders and personalities and I'll be sad the day he leaves motoGp - but to be fair, Vermuelin did aggregate more points in the last two years than Loris, mainly through somewhat stoic rather than inspiring riding, a little bit like Hayden in that respect. He has gone into self-imposed exile - it was his choice mid-way through the year to leave Suzuki (though one could see his chances of remaining there slipping away) simply because he felt - not too astonishingly - that Suzuki were unlikley to produce a bike he could achieve much more on than he has done.

As it now transpires, he may have been precipitate in deciding that a Pramac option was also going to be unproductive, but then so did practically everybody else when faced with the choice of going the Ducati route at that time.. Sadly, that leaves us with nobody to champion the cause of terry-towelling hats in motoGp. Where will it all end, I say?

[Hayshed]

Thanks Carty,

Good to see not everyone is getting the wool pulled over their eyes. And of course they are all magnificent, I just would have loved to see Elias
on a factory ride. I think he would have matched them

But he was on a factory bike this year - admittedly in a satellite squad, and very much a Frankenstein's monster machine- a sum of reject parts tried tested and cast aside by the Repsol Honda garage and cobbled together by Gresini. It was very different to Sete, who although contracted to Telefonica whilst in the same team, was later in receipt of bespoke parts in a desperate attempt by HRC to beat Rossi and Yamaha.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

I realize I'm a week late with this, but just in case this got past anyone's attention, I'll re-invite everyone to see Rats' graph:


Thank you, carty, for starting this thread! I had no idea it would give me so much material...

[8 dirt]

Hey RB!
I didn't see that you had done that TE article! Nice job. We now have a trinity of Journalistic Majesties on the front page, Dave, Mike and Rusty. Good for us. Cheers. 8d