Women and MotoGP

[chakraist]

I'm 6'6". I constantly look to Ruben Xaus for approval.

That said, I ride with a kind of natural corner speed style and if I were to somehow end up racing internationally certainly it would be in moto2/wss as these are the bikes I prefer to ride, small, managable, high corner speed, front end reliance. Yet I'd probably be at a huge disadvantage due to my big (huge) frame (not fat, but 48/50 inch chest, 36 inch leg, etc). But you tend to think that being so big, I'd lose maybe a couple of ks on the straights but make it up due to being able to anchor the bike that much better; just because a certain class tends to a certain height/weight limit (and certainly my RSV needs its tank raising 20mm or so so I can get my knees in the tank with my A*s on) doesn't mean that a larger rider can't succeed. A guy like Spies has a better chance at not highsiding with his weight anchoring the bike than a guy like Pedrosa. And it shows.

Or so I'd like to believe.

[RatsMC]

1) KR was probably THE Pioneer of off-bike physical training as a key to success. Running, weight lifting etc.
2) He was fit as a fiddle back in the day and just the right size
3) Results speak louder than anything. If he (or anyone) can pilot a bike at a competetive pace, he/she will get a ride even if they are green skinned with pink hair. Dennis Rodman???

I don't question any of those but I would be willing to be that Sr would be on the very outer limit of the range of weights of riders today if he weren't well above that range.

When I say that KRSR would be excluded from MotoGP because of his size, I am not saying he would be ignored or avoided but that he simply would not be fast because the bikes are designed around a smaller rider and in the era of fuel limits, rider weight is absolutely a part of the design.

[motomania]

[. However, A rider of KR size would never even receive a ride in MotoGP today because he would be consider too fat.

Rats, are you talking about his current physique, or his racing days?

His size when he was competing. I haven't looked up how tall and heavy he was but KR himself originally suggested this idea.

I think KRSr is 5' 8" but I'm not positive. Jr is about 5' 10" and I think Sr was about 2 inches shorter then Jr. Here's a photo of him in 1981 at the French Grand Prix. Not unlike many of us now on the downhill run to the century mark, he's not as svelte as he once was, but he was never a big guy till after he quit racing. Sorry Sr., you know it as well as I do. Spies is 5'10"+ at about 160 lbs and Sr. wasn't as big as Spies.

http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/4950610.jpg

As for him being competitive today, I damn sure wouldn't bet against him. The only racer I've ever met with more determination and will power was Rainey. Sr. can be a very foused individual and that has served him well in several of his endeavors.

Junior was fat at the end of his career.

One of my friends used to refer to him as "A Salad dodger!"

Allergic to rabbit fodder?

{image linked instead of framed due to complaints by photographer who does not understand how to protect his own photos}

[ReviveTheWhigs]

So I decided to determine precisely* how many women would fit into the current cross-section of MotoGP ride height and weight limits, as averages alone are of little value. This was done because I was curious (I've never really considered the distribution of sizes in the US population. The things you learn on Motomatters...), but mostly because I'm a bit burned out from my current project. And away we go:

In 2005 a report was released by the CDC presenting anthropometric reference data collected by an National Nutritional and Examination Survey (NHANES) conducted between the years 1999 and 2002 (McDowell et al). Weighted means, standard error of the means, and percentiles are presented for the entire US population. I only consider the height and weight of the population whose age exceeded 20 years old. The number of surveys recorded in this age range was approximately 4000.

Values for average height and weight for males is taken from Tables 29 and 31. The corresponding values for females is taken from Tables 16 and 18. The average height and weight for males(females) are listed as 69.2" (63.8") and 190.4(163.3) lbs. I assume a Gaussian distribution for both height and weight. The standard deviations (SD) for height and weight are determined by adjusting the SD until the percentage calculated from the Gaussian is within 1% error of the 15th, 50th, and 75th percentile values. For example, the SD of height is approximated to be 2.99" for males and 2.70" for females.

What remains then is to calculate the percentage of women and men that fall within a given height and weight range. For the minimum and maximum height I use data from MotoTheory (Rider's Height and Weight). The low values of weight and height are chosen to be 64" and 100 lbs., and the high value are chosen to be 70" and 165 lbs (which I believe to be extreme values). The probability of a member of the population lying in these ranges is calculated. I list some interesting results:

1. The probability of a male lying in the chosen range of height is calculated to be 81.7%. For females this is value is 74.4%.
2. Unsurprisingly, this value changes quite drastically for males as the upper limit is varied. If the upper limit of height is chosen to be 70", the percentage of males that fall within this range drops to 59.7%, while females only drop to 73.7%. Conversely, If I were to raise the value of lower height limit to 54" to the percentage of females drops to 48%, while males only drop to 78%. This is due to the relatively narrow standard of deviation of height for humans.
3. Considering that current group of MotoGP rider's height are in general closer to 62" than 72" one can conclude that a reduced upper height limit is more reasonable. This results in a significant increase in the ratio of women per men.
4. Looking at a more limited range (65" - 68"), we find that 21.0%(15.1%) of women (men) fall in this range.
5. The probability of a male lying in the chosen range of weight is calculated to be 24.5%. For females this value is 46.7%.
6. The standard deviation of weight is relatively higher than it's height counterpart. This results in a lower net change when the limits of the height are varied. If the upper limit is chosen to be 180 lbs. the percentage of men who fall in this range jumps to 43.4, but the percentage of females also rises to 63.3%.
7. I treat probability of falling in the listed range of height and weight by assuming they are independent*. The total percentage of women (men) who lie in th range is 34.8%(20.1%).

Interestingly, it seems that under the general height (62"-72") and weight (100 lbs. -165 lbs.) women show a distinct advantage in sheer numbers, with 1.7 women per male. In a more constricted range (65"-67"), women still hold a large advantage.

Eh, as you will. I though it was interesting.

* For anyone who cares: look, I'm not going to worry about height-weight correlation because I gotta go and I already spent way to much time on this. Maybe later.

[phil]

[Kropotkin]

So I decided to determine precisely* how many women would fit into the current cross-section of MotoGP ride height and weight limits, as averages alone are of little value. This was done because I was curious (I've never really considered the distribution of sizes in the US population. The things you learn on Motomatters...), but mostly because I'm a bit burned out from my current project. And away we go:

Brilliant! A great piece of number crunching. I suspect that the data is not as usable as you might hope, because of where the current crop of riders sit in the male bell curve, and there's no account taken for physical strength, but it's a really great starting point. Nice work!

[RatsMC]

I read that last night just before bed and was quite impressed. However, at the time, the best analysis I could come up with was "wow!".

I think this is a bit better than a starting place. RTW has laid out the outer bounds of what can reasonably be considered MotoGP material and more important, has laid out the mental model and all that is left to be done is plugging in the variables we want to understand. Of course, as you point out, some of those variables (strength) are extremely difficult to quantify in a manner useful to this discussion.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

I'll see your photo, phil, and raise you one:



"OK, now I know I'll fit on this little guy's bike in November, but they better put some brakes on it!"

Now that I look more closely at phil's picture, I see the actual physical height/weight problem, i.e. the thing keeping women out of MotoGP: hand size. She can barely grab the brake lever...

[phoenix1]

Eh, as you will. I though it was interesting.

* For anyone who cares: look, I'm not going to worry about height-weight correlation because I gotta go and I already spent way to much time on this. Maybe later.

The big problem is weight, imo. If a 5'7" was on a MotoGP fitness routine, she'd be a little 110lb stick figure. The average male MotoGP rider would still weigh between 135-150lbs. People have said that women can bulk up, but I'm not sure that is the case. Besides the difficulties of adding 25% more muscle, some riders in the paddock have said it's actually better to be too light than to add/maintain additional weight. Apparently, the performance of the bikes is so high that supporting additional body mass (mainly during braking) is more taxing than steering the bike, it probably leads to compartment syndrome as well. If a woman does all of her workouts and she weighs 110lbs, there isn't anything to suggest that bulking up is an option. Pedrosa has never bulked up, even though it might help him on the anchors, or to keep the front wheel down.

That's why I've said women would benefit from a superlights class with a less torquey engine. Assuming that the optimal weight for a GP rider is 140-155lbs, a 110lb rider would excel on a lighter bike that doesn't loft the front wheel through the first 4 gears. Moto2 is close. Who knows? Talented female riders might do very well in the class b/c the bikes are light and the engines produce manageable torque. My only complaint then would be that Moto2 is not really a career destination so a woman would have to go into a sport designed by men for men in order to pay the bills so to speak. It is merely a convenient coincidence that classes designed for boys also happens to suit women.

Time will tell. Hopefully, someone will at least give Elena a test for Moto2. She'd be leaving behind a production 600 class where the bikes weigh 50kg more, so we'd get to see if a lighter machine gives her a bit of a boost.

[Squidpuppet]

1) KR was probably THE Pioneer of off-bike physical training as a key to success. Running, weight lifting etc.
2) He was fit as a fiddle back in the day and just the right size
3) Results speak louder than anything. If he (or anyone) can pilot a bike at a competetive pace, he/she will get a ride even if they are green skinned with pink hair. Dennis Rodman???

I don't question any of those but I would be willing to be that Sr would be on the very outer limit of the range of weights of riders today if he weren't well above that range.

When I say that KRSR would be excluded from MotoGP because of his size, I am not saying he would be ignored or avoided but that he simply would not be fast because the bikes are designed around a smaller rider and in the era of fuel limits, rider weight is absolutely a part of the design.

I was hoping that my memory wasnt as bad as it has been lately, and I am relieved to discover that at least on bike racing history, I still dont need to be sent to the glue factory. Yet.

This is one svelte dude right here. The Perfect size. 1983 I think

[Squidpuppet]

I'll see your photo, phil, and raise you one:



"OK, now I know I'll fit on this little guy's bike in November, but they better put some brakes on it!"

Now that I look more closely at phil's picture, I see the actual physical height/weight problem, i.e. the thing keeping women out of MotoGP: hand size. She can barely grab the brake lever...

Look at her knee/elbow junction. Its close. With the substantial elbow and knee armor in her leathers, she might be too BIG for a GP bike.

[RatsMC]

The big problem is weight, imo. If a 5'7" was on a MotoGP fitness routine, she'd be a little 110lb stick figure. The average male MotoGP rider would still weigh between 135-150lbs...

...Assuming that the optimal weight for a GP rider is 140-155lbs...

Average? the maximum a MotoGP rider weighs is 150Lbs., the average is a lot closer to 125-130. 140-150lbs. is a long way from optimal. I'll run the query later but last time I did, the average weight of race winner (assumed optimal) was about 120lbs.


That's why I've said women would benefit from a superlights class with a less torquey engine. Assuming that the optimal weight for a GP rider is 140-155lbs, a 110lb rider would excel on a lighter bike that doesn't loft the front wheel through the first 4 gears. Moto2 is close. Who knows? Talented female riders might do very well in the class b/c the bikes are light and the engines produce manageable torque.

I am still trying to understand why you believe that a lighter rider can't handle the torque of a MotoGP motor? Elias and Pedrosa seem to do just fine with Pedrosa getting astounding starts and utilizing the torque to its maximum.

On top of that, Mot female riders aren't going to weigh less than Pedrosa.

[RatsMC]

This is one svelte dude right here. The Perfect size. 1983 I think

He was certainly in shape but how much did he weigh? I don't believe that anyone over 130-135 lbs has won a race in the 800cc era.

[phoenix1]

This is one svelte dude right here. The Perfect size. 1983 I think

He was certainly in shape but how much did he weigh? I don't believe that anyone over 130-135 lbs has won a race in the 800cc era.

Rossi, Stoner, and Lorenzo are all over 135lbs. Dovi, and Verme are both over 135lbs. Only Dani & Capi are 135lbs or under.

Only 6 riders are under 60kg. Three of them are listed at 59kg.

BTW, the average 5'7" MotoGP rider would weight somewhere between 140-155lbs which is the approximate weight dispersion for people of that height.

[RatsMC]

Rossi, Stoner, and Lorenzo are all over 135lbs. Dovi, and Verme are both over 135lbs. Only Dani & Capi are 135lbs or under.

Only 6 riders are under 60kg. Three of them are listed at 59kg.

Dorna seems to have spent some time re-weighing their riders because none of those riders were listed as over 135 prior to this year.


BTW, the average 5'7" MotoGP rider would weight somewhere between 140-155lbs which is the approximate weight dispersion for people of that height.[/quote]

An assumption that isn't well supported. You would have to compare athletes of similar heights not the average. The fact remains, there is absolutely no way the average MotoGP rider actually weights 150lbs. More important would be how many have won and at what weight.

[Pantah]

None of it is about talent......its about backing ! It doesnt matter about gender.......If you have the big sponsors behind you ,then.............

[Squidpuppet]

Rossi, Stoner, and Lorenzo are all over 135lbs. Dovi, and Verme are both over 135lbs. Only Dani & Capi are 135lbs or under.

Only 6 riders are under 60kg. Three of them are listed at 59kg.

Dorna seems to have spent some time re-weighing their riders because none of those riders were listed as over 135 prior to this year.


BTW, the average 5'7" MotoGP rider would weight somewhere between 140-155lbs which is the approximate weight dispersion for people of that height.

[An assumption that isn't well supported. You would have to compare athletes of similar heights not the average. The fact remains, there is absolutely no way the average MotoGP rider actually weights 150lbs. More important would be how many have won and at what weight.

MotoGP.com has listed many riders, even current riders, at over 135 lbs for years. I have followed it somewhat closely. I watched Nicky's weight drop on that site as we watched him get leaner over the last couple years. Vale has dropped weight there also and shows it in his face and hands last and this year. Vale is listed at 147 lbs and he is clearly the skinniest we have seen him since his early 20's.

Jorge Lorenzo weighs more than Pedrosa, Stoner and a bunch of guys that he is beating.

You are putting too much emphasis on weight. Weight has both advantaged and disadvantages. Its the talent and skill and bike that wins races and a few (10-20-30 lbs) aint gunna break the deal. A great example of this is Simoncelli. 6' tall and 160 lbs and he is beating lighter and smaller guys.

Last Years World Champion was the heaviest, tallest guy out there.

[Squidpuppet]

This is one svelte dude right here. The Perfect size. 1983 I think

He was certainly in shape but how much did he weigh? I don't believe that anyone over 130-135 lbs has won a race in the 800cc era.

Look how tiny he is. Look at the angle his leg rests at. It indicates that the bike is ROOMY for him. Look at the long reach to the bars. The fuel tank is bigger than is torso. He is very short, and very clearly lean as hell. He cant weigh more than a sneeze in that pic.

[phoenix1]

You are putting too much emphasis on weight.

B/c of the data provided by Whigs, the conversation changed to "assume a woman is the right height to compete, could she?". I say, women are still at a disadvantage b/c their natural weight is far lower than her male counterpart of identical height. I don't think the bulk up argument is legitimate b/c none of the current riders who need more mass for the anchors or too keep the front wheel down during acceleration have put on any weight.

Eventually, the argument will evolve into what everyone is trying desperately to avoid: "Assume a woman is the optimum height and weight for GP". In other words, "Assume a woman is a man, could she compete?". The question is basically rhetorical at that point, but if we are supposedly devising a way for MotoGP to be more woman friendly, are we really accomplishing anything by convincing ourselves that a woman could compete if she were only a man?

I don't really see any value in entertaining the idea that male transvestites (we are referring to them as "women") can win MotoGP races. I do see value in creating a system of formulas that could involve far more people of varying statures, the possible result of which could be a sport more friendly to women. More diverse formulas would help riders of all shapes and sizes, not just women.

[Squidpuppet]

[I don't really see any value in entertaining the idea that male transvestites (we are referring to them as "women") can win MotoGP races.

Those would actually be female transvestites.

But seriously, I dont understand your statement. Are you saying you dont understand the value in "us talking about it", or are you saying you dont understand the value of a gal competing in GP?

Clarify for me please.

[RatsMC]

MotoGP.com has listed many riders, even current riders, at over 135 lbs for years. I have followed it somewhat closely. I watched Nicky's weight drop on that site as we watched him get leaner over the last couple years. Vale has dropped weight there also and shows it in his face and hands last and this year. Vale is listed at 147 lbs and he is clearly the skinniest we have seen him since his early 20's.

I have been gathering the data from MotoGP.com for a couple of years. The weight numbers they have been listing have all gone up significantly within the past year. I'm not sure exactly why but since it is across the board, there must be a systemic change other than every rider gaining weight.

This is one svelte dude right here. The Perfect size. 1983 I think

He was certainly in shape but how much did he weigh? I don't believe that anyone over 130-135 lbs has won a race in the 800cc era.

Look how tiny he is. Look at the angle his leg rests at. It indicates that the bike is ROOMY for him. Look at the long reach to the bars. The fuel tank is bigger than is torso. He is very short, and very clearly lean as hell. He cant weigh more than a sneeze in that pic.

That bike is also a lot bigger than a modern MotoGP bike. Even Pedrosa on the 212V looks bigger than that


However, the KRSR point is really an aside about the direction that MotoGP bike development has gone. It is very clear that the average weight of riders has gone down and the average weight of race winners has gone down even more. But really, this doesn't change the overall discussion, if anything this trend supports the idea that a woman could be successful on a MotoGP bike.

You are putting too much emphasis on weight.

B/c of the data provided by Whigs, the conversation changed to "assume a woman is the right height to compete, could she?".

When was that ever the argument? I haven't really relied on assumptions for any of my points and, in particular, I haven't really been concerned with height.

I say, women are still at a disadvantage b/c their natural weight is far lower than her male counterpart of identical height. I don't think the bulk up argument is legitimate b/c none of the current riders who need more mass for the anchors or too keep the front wheel down during acceleration have put on any weight.

Most women of average height are going to weigh more than Pedrosa or Elias. There are also women of Pedrosa's height and weight who are almost certainly stronger than he is. The weight argument holds no weight nor does the height argument. Strength is also a non-issue. Until you can explain away Pedrosa and Elias' wins, there is no argument that a woman could not compete.

Eventually, the argument will evolve into what everyone is trying desperately to avoid: "Assume a woman is the optimum height and weight for GP". In other words, "Assume a woman is a man, could she compete?". The question is basically rhetorical at that point, but if we are supposedly devising a way for MotoGP to be more woman friendly, are we really accomplishing anything by convincing ourselves that a woman could compete if she were only a man?

This is a really weird argument. As I have mentioned many times, there is no evidence to suggest that a woman isn't the optimal height and weight for GP. Since a woman is already the optimal height and weight for MotoGP, the question of whether she could compete can only be proven out when it happens.

[heng47]

http://www.motoblog.it/post/25630/mai-lin-stunt-girl
I thought this was relevant.
Sort of.


You can see how muscular she is in the bikini shots.
Which brings us back to the conversation about weights. You can weigh the same, but you're not necessarily made of the same stuff. Men will have a larger muscle mass to rest of body ratio compared to women so physically, which probably also leads to longer endurance.

[Gustav O]

You can see how muscular she is in the bikini shots.
Which brings us back to the conversation about weights. You can weigh the same, but you're not necessarily made of the same stuff. Men will have a larger muscle mass to rest of body ratio compared to women so physically, which probably also leads to longer endurance.

But still. The strength and endurance needed to race a MotoGP bike is not beyond any level possible to reach for a female.
I say the reasons for not a lot of women making it to the top is due to the fact there are very few female racers + tradition.

[RatsMC]

Which brings us back to the conversation about weights. You can weigh the same, but you're not necessarily made of the same stuff. Men will have a larger muscle mass to rest of body ratio compared to women so physically, which probably also leads to longer endurance.

Right, but there isn't any real evidence that the increased muscle density that men have is any advantage. Clearly, outright strength isn't advantageous since no riders are working to build outright muscle mass.

[The Scribe]

MotoGP.com has listed many riders, even current riders, at over 135 lbs for years. I have followed it somewhat closely. I watched Nicky's weight drop on that site as we watched him get leaner over the last couple years. Vale has dropped weight there also and shows it in his face and hands last and this year. Vale is listed at 147 lbs and he is clearly the skinniest we have seen him since his early 20's.

I have been gathering the data from MotoGP.com for a couple of years. The weight numbers they have been listing have all gone up significantly within the past year. I'm not sure exactly why but since it is across the board, there must be a systemic change other than every rider gaining weight.

I am with Squidpuppet in this. Past year I had a look at the weights on the site also, and I haven´t noticed any significant increase this year. I am sure that, at least Aoyama, Bautista, Barbera, Rossi, and Pedrosa haven´t changed his weight in the site, while Simoncelli has lost one kilo compared to past year.

Past year you wrote the following in the Silly Season 2010 thread

I haven't confirmed this but the recent round of rookies moving into MotoGP seem to be significantly bigger than we have seen for several years. Depending on the information source, both Bautista and Simoncelli are above the average weight - SImoncelli so much so that he will move the average above 60kg.

When I made the average with the numbers from the site, I got 62 kg, while you had around 60. I think maybe you made your average with the numbers from mototheory, which are significantly lower than the ones in the official site (Pedrosa and Rossi in particular are 8 kg down in mototheory wrt motogp.com).

Anyway, that doesn´t change your main points. I haven´t had the time to follow this topic closely, but I don´t see any physical limitation that may prevent women from being succesful in MotoGP, as Pedrosa, Elías and other riders have demonstrated.