MOTO 3

Debate and discussion about the feeder classes of MotoGP, including the fabulous 250s, the thrilling 125s, and the madness that is the Red Bull Rookies

MOTO 3

Postby Cam D on Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:36 pm

I guess this is as good as anywhere for this topic.

The formula sounds like it will be reasonably boring. With heaps of riders I guess there should be close racing but, 250 singles will be pretty slow. Personally I reckon a 450cc single would have been a better stepping stone to 600 fours. I would like to see them open up the fields for Moto2 and Moto3 and maybe have qualifying 1/2 hour heats on the Saturday with the race on Sunday being the 15 fastest from each heat. That would get plenty of fresh faces into the sport and spread out the points some what.

Non variable valve timing - no direct injection - no variable exhaust components - 2 gear variations for each gear declared at the start of the season .... the only thing they haven't put a limit on is flywheel weight. These rules are pretty restrictive to allow for decent power from a 250cc fourstroke engine. The 125's were getting to 220km/hr at Valencia.... I would be pretty surprised to see the 250 four stroke singles with this format hit those same sort of speeds. The works 250 fourstoke MX bikes only put out about the same HP as a standardish 125cc two stroke MX bike. I realise torque differences, dollars, close racing etc...... but it still sounds weak.

Moto3 Technical Regulations:

Engine

•4-stroke reciprocating piston engines only.
•Engine capacity: maximum 250cc.
•Single cylinder only.
•Maximum bore size: 81mm. No oval pistons.
•Engines must be normally aspirated. No turbo-charging, no super-charging.
•Crankshaft speed limited to maximum: 14,000 rpm.*
•Maximum of 1 ignition driver.*
•Maximum of 4 valves.
•Pneumatic and/or hydraulic valve systems are not permitted.
•Valves timing system drive must be by chain.
•Variable valve timing and/or variable valve opening systems are not permitted.

Engine Supply

•The engine is defined as the complete engine including intake system (throttle body, injectors), and one complete transmission.
•The maximum price of the engine must not exceed 12,000 Euro. No optional parts or service contracts may be used to circumvent this price limit.
•Each engine manufacturer must undertake to supply sufficient engines and spare parts to supply minimum 15 riders per season, if requested.
•Each engine manufacturer must submit a spare parts price and lead-time list for the season for approval by the Organiser, and may not charge more than these published prices. Approval is based on the prices and lead-times being in line with current market norms for these parts and technologies.
•In the event of engine updates or upgraded parts being developed, these must be made available to all customers at the same time, and respecting the price limits described above.

Inlet & Fuel System

•Variable-length inlet tract systems are not permitted.
•Only one throttle control valve is permitted, which must be controlled exclusively by mechanical means (eg. cable) operated by the rider only. No other moving devices (except injectors) are permitted in the inlet tract before the engine intake valve. No interruption of the mechanical connection between the rider’s input and the throttle is allowed.
•Idle speed adjustment by means of an air bypass system, controlled by the ECU is allowed.*
•Fuel injectors must be located upstream of the engine intake valves.
•Maximum of 2 fuel injectors and 2 independent fuel injector drivers.*
•Fuel pressure must not exceed 5.0 bar.
•Other than engine sump breather gases, only air or air/fuel mixture is permitted in the inlet tract and combustion chamber.
•Fuel must comply with the FIM “Moto3” specification (tba).

Exhaust system

•Variable length exhaust systems are not permitted.
•Noise limit will be a maximum of 115 dB/A, measured in a static test.
•No moving parts (e.g. valves, baffles…) are allowed in the exhaust system.

Transmission

•A maximum of 6 gearbox speeds is permitted.
•A maximum of 2 alternate gear ratios for each gearbox speed, and 2 alternate ratios for the primary drive gear is permitted. Teams will be required to declare the gearbox ratios for each gear used at the beginning of the season.
•Electro-mechanical or electro-hydraulic clutch actuating systems are not permitted.

Ignition, Electronics & Data-Logging

•Only the ignition/fuel injection control units (ECU) approved by the series Organiser are allowed.
•This ECU must remain unmodified in hardware and software, as delivered by the Organiser. The only permitted changes are the setting (tuning) options included in the software.
•The Technical Director may require the team to change the ECU on any machine for another standard one at any time.
•This official ECU will include an engine rpm limiter.
•Only the standard Data Logger system approved by the series Organiser may be used.
* All the parameters identified by this symbol are set/controlled via the above mentioned ECU.

Chassis

•Chassis must be a prototype, the design and construction of which is free within the constraints of the FIM Grand Prix Technical Regulations.
•Minimum total weight of Motorcycle + Rider: 148kg
•Brake discs must be made from an iron-based alloy.
•Suspension systems must be of a conventional passive, mechanical type. Active and semi-active suspension systems and/or electronic control of any aspect of the suspension and ride height is not permitted. Springing must be by means of coil springs made of Iron-based alloys.

Wheels & Tyres

•The only materials allowed for the wheels rims are Mg and Al alloys.
•The only permitted wheel rim sizes are:
◦Front, 2.50” x 17”
◦Rear, 3.50” x 17”
•The number and specification of tyres allocated to each rider per event will be controlled.
•Only tyres from the Official Supplier may be used.

Materials & Construction

•Construction materials must comply with Article 2.7.10 of the FIM Grand Prix regulations.
•Camshafts, crankshafts, piston pins must be made from Iron-based alloys.
•Engine crankcases, cylinder blocks and cylinder heads must be made from cast aluminium alloys.
•Pistons must be made from an aluminium alloy.
•Connecting rods, valves and valve springs must be made from either Iron-based or Titanium-based alloys.
•Definitions:
•“X-based alloy” means the element X (e.g. Fe, for iron-based alloy) must be the most abundant element in the alloy, on a % w/w basis.
General

•Number of machines: the team can scrutineer only one motorcycle per rider.
•Number of engines: a maximum of 8 engines per rider may be used during all Grand Prix race events comprising the season. A rebuilt engine will be counted as a new engine.
•Teams will be required to register engines at Technical Control on the day before the first practice at each event. Such registered engines will be sealed (excluding cam cover, transmission if applicable) and seals may not be removed except under supervision of the Technical Director. Only sealed and registered engines may be used on track at Grand Prix race events. An engine presented for Technical Control without intact seals will be counted as a new engine.
•Apart from the above regulations, all other construction criteria, dimensions and specifications are as per the FIM Grand Prix Regulations.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby Cam D on Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:03 am

I guess you could muck around a little with weight distribution, but not being able to use fancy materials in the crank assembly will be limiting for over all engine weight.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby lucy on Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:56 am

Cam D wrote:•Only the ignition/fuel injection control units (ECU) approved by the series Organiser are allowed.
•This ECU must remain unmodified in hardware and software, as delivered by the Organiser. The only permitted changes are the setting (tuning) options included in the software.


Spec. ECU! How long can MotoGP hold out?
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby Kropotkin on Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:05 pm

lucy wrote:
Cam D wrote:•Only the ignition/fuel injection control units (ECU) approved by the series Organiser are allowed.
•This ECU must remain unmodified in hardware and software, as delivered by the Organiser. The only permitted changes are the setting (tuning) options included in the software.


Spec. ECU! How long can MotoGP hold out?


As long as it takes for there to be enough CRT bikes to replace the factories. Once we get a spec ECU, the factories go.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby lucy on Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:58 pm

Kropotkin wrote:As long as it takes for there to be enough CRT bikes to replace the factories. Once we get a spec ECU, the factories go.


The factories (mostly) hung around in F1 after the spec. ECU came in 2007.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby oldboyonrgv on Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:56 am

I am a little disspointed in the regs as they appear to have been made for the bigger manufacturers who will have the budget to exploit any loopholes making it really difficult for small teams to be able to be competitive. Also the National series will follow these rules (CEV already has), the weight limit is up 10Kg's on GP125 which will also make em slower 14000 rev limit also limits power so I guess they will be about 10 BHP down on the current 125's and carrying 10Kgs more weight. But as MOTO2 has proved you dont have to have fast lap times to create close racing, and the rules as they stand will probably produce close racing.
Woudl ahev been good if they had a dispensation for home brewed teams though somthing like less wieght and no control ECU!
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby sir_nj on Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:33 am

Cam D wrote:•Minimum total weight of Motorcycle + Rider: 148kg


so why can't they recognise that the rider is part of the package in MotoGP is beyond me.

Other than that, I tend to agree that the 440-450cc single would make a lot more sense and if they want to put a cap on $ then just put a numerical cap on hp.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby oldboyonrgv on Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:48 pm

The spec they have given will basicly produce 45BHP but with 10Kg more, racing will be close, Looks like the big four have ahd their fingers in the pie shame, I knwo a fair few smaller teams who were lkooking to develop a moto3 bike who are now retracting....
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby Rossifumi on Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:30 pm

sir_nj wrote:
Cam D wrote:•Minimum total weight of Motorcycle + Rider: 148kg


so why can't they recognise that the rider is part of the package in MotoGP is beyond me.



power:weight ratio is not such a big factor in the higher powerd bikes as it is in the tiddlers. Other factors such as strength, leverage/length of levers (limbs) come more in to it on the bigger bikes than they do in the smallest class.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby bonedar on Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:02 pm

Wow why is everyone think these bikes wont keep up. Ron Hamp has a honda 250 motocross engine in a rs125 frame and is beating $100,000.00 Aprillas 125gp bikes. If Honda and the rest make purpose built engines in the 12,000.00 euro range there gona be HOT and FAST. the motocrosser is 6000.00 for the whole bike?
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby TheSecondStain on Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:45 am

bonedar wrote:Wow why is everyone think these bikes wont keep up. Ron Hamp has a honda 250 motocross engine in a rs125 frame and is beating $100,000.00 Aprillas 125gp bikes. If Honda and the rest make purpose built engines in the 12,000.00 euro range there gona be HOT and FAST. the motocrosser is 6000.00 for the whole bike?


It should be just a case of frictional losses that makes a 125cc 2-stroke engine more capable than a 250cc 4-stroke. But then the 2T has a wafer thin powerband and not much else, and the 4T will have usable torque, along with a fatter powerband. But the 4T will certainly weigh more, if one just adds in the 4-valve DOHC or electronic operated gear alone. I'd still be surprised if the 250GP 4T bike could keep up with a 125GP 2T machine.

Basically, it's about time someone came up with a squeaky clean 2T. Where did that bloody stepped piston idea go..? :)
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby Mattias on Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:54 pm

The video of the NRS250 on motogp.com doesn't really set my pants on fire. It just sounds so... wrong.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby TheSecondStain on Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:10 pm

Mattias wrote:The video of the NRS250 on motogp.com doesn't really set my pants on fire. It just sounds so... wrong.


Ooh, I don't know..? I quite liked that rorty sound. But then I'm probably a bit older [don't take that as "wiser", as well] and like an engine to sound like it's going to live longer. The 125GP 2T's always sound like they are a gnat's wotsit away from welding themselves tight. Don't get me wrong though, I like them too. Just that I like a little rortiness in an engine. Here's that video:




It actually reminds me of my mate's Honda 250 Spadas. OK, they're V-Twins from the late 1980's to early 90's, and he has two of them, Castec frames and all. Tbh, I think he's on a one man mission to own all the remaining ones in the UK. In top order they produce 40bhp. Not too disimilar. If you think you remember them, the modern equivalent is the VT250.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby Gustav O on Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:38 pm

Hey SS! Can´t you just see how wrong the sound of a supposed GP bike is when you say it sounds like a Honda 250 twin from the 80´s that looks like this?
Image

I admit to being a two stroke idiot but they at least sound like they are meant to go really fast and be ridden aggresively.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby TwoStroke Institute on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:11 am

this is what a 'race' will sound like

If Jesus had ridden, he would have rode a two stroke
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby TheSecondStain on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:45 pm

Gustav O wrote:Hey SS! Can´t you just see how wrong the sound of a supposed GP bike is when you say it sounds like a Honda 250 twin from the 80´s that looks like this?
Image

I admit to being a two stroke idiot but they at least sound like they are meant to go really fast and be ridden aggressively.


I thought I'd seen every Spada pic off the net, but not that one. Looks cute, doesn't it..?

Yeah, I kind of agree with you that it is sad the 2 strokes are being replaced by double sized 4 strokes. Surely, at the pinnacle of 2 wheeled motor racing, there is a place for a traditional engine that is quite clearly more powerful per cc than the one that replaces it. I also think that, if you are going to replace an engine class with another, then the replacement should be allowed a little more freedom to generate interest, from a public perspective. After all, these new machines, whilst meant to be cost effective, are also meant to appeal slightly to the public, who will be buying road 250cc machines. Surely they could have allowed 2 cylinders. I honestly don't think the manufacturers are going to sell that many single cylinder road bikes, given the illustrious machinery that was available just a few years ago.

EDIT: Posted another piece below, but ended up repeating myself, so deleted it. Here are the bits from it worth adding:

I note that the latest sports Honda CBR250R will be a 23bhp single cylinder machine, looking like a mini VFR1200F. Sports..? Well that's all that will be available from Honda. Pity it doesn't have a tiny version of the VFR's V4 engine in it, or at least a tiny slice of a V2. That's what they had before. After all, it's why I mentioned the 40bhp at 12,500rpm Honda Spada, and that hailed from over 20 years ago. Around that time, but as little as 15 years ago, one could have purchased the CBR250R - the inline 4 beastie which revved to 19,000, and produced 45bhp.

As they say, compare and contrast:
2011 CBR250 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_CBR250R_(2011)
1996 CBR250 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_CBR250
1990 VT250 Spada - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_VT250

One hopes that the rules could be eased after 2012.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby oldboyonrgv on Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:51 am

TheSecondStain wrote:
bonedar wrote:Basically, it's about time someone came up with a squeaky clean 2T. Where did that bloody stepped piston idea go..? :)


We already have one see here http://www.cougarred.com/racing.html

Just got back from the 1st CEV round in Jerez it runs and is being developed.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby Richo on Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:04 am

oldboyonrgv wrote:
TheSecondStain wrote:
bonedar wrote:Basically, it's about time someone came up with a squeaky clean 2T. Where did that bloody stepped piston idea go..? :)


We already have one see here http://www.cougarred.com/racing.html

Just got back from the 1st CEV round in Jerez it runs and is being developed.


That Couger Red engine sounds very promising. Sadly there aren't a lot of series that it can run in anymore (to my knowledge anyway). When do they plan to race this?
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:59 pm

TheSecondStain wrote: I honestly don't think the manufacturers are going to sell that many single cylinder road bikes, given the illustrious machinery that was available just a few years ago.


Hmm... no reason they'd be worse than the vast bumbers of anaemic scooters that are sold here. Only issue is that a 125 can be ridden with a car license (+7 hrs of instruction since this year),
whereas a 250 of however many strokes requires a proper bike license.

Actually I owned both a CB250RS and an SRX250 (on which I did a blistering 2'40" lap of Phillip Island), both were quite fun for zipping about in town.
Last edited by GrahamB on Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby Gustav O on Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:33 pm

Just for the record, I didn´t write that - SecondStain did. :)
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:37 pm

Fixed :)
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby kkronja on Sun May 01, 2011 9:15 pm

As much as the " sound is in the ears of listener", there's still a huge gap on the stopwatch...
...just have a look look at the results from CIV Monza :
http://www.civ.tv/images/uploads/gare/227/125moto3_gara.PDF
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby TheSecondStain on Sun May 15, 2011 1:18 am

kkronja wrote:As much as the " sound is in the ears of listener", there's still a huge gap on the stopwatch...
...just have a look look at the results from CIV Monza :
http://www.civ.tv/images/uploads/gare/227/125moto3_gara.PDF


That's kind of what I was expecting, to be honest. Nobody can expect a little development to make up that enormous gap in time of something like 8 seconds, but I expect that to diminish to around 3-4 seconds with development and best riders. That's the sort of difference between 250GP and Moto2. If only the regulations weren't quite as restrictive. Another cylinder OR a change in the bore limit OR a relaxation on the rev limit OR something else. Just the loosening of one technical spec would make some difference, possibly all of it. Of course, they've been trying to slow bikes for years, and now they've found a way. We'll all be thrilled as usual, with the new racing, I've no doubt. But I bet it won't be long before some wag suggests that a 125GP bike would have ended each race about a minute earlier.
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby kkronja on Mon May 23, 2011 11:03 pm

...for the last few weekends I've been closely watching the Sherco Moto3 effort,
http://www.omnimoto.it/magazine/6340/sh ... -a-partire

and they seem like a team much more capable then the usual level of the championship it is in is, with a fast rider, but all they manage to do in race is two or three laps when it sounds terribly close to vintage Aermacchi or Mondial, but at least quite healthy. After that the rattle and noise and a sudden pop begin to increase as it struggles to finish...

they were 6 secs slower than the top GPs at Brno in qualifying, but they are very good at starting, top 3 in the first corner...

the team is working full time around the bike , and I can't really see the way its going to be cheaper than it is now, no way...
and the sound of them 40 at the same time will definitely divert my attention into some other direction

them being a four stroke also means there will be much more "oil on the track" situations, so it will reach new levels of safety, I guess...
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Re: MOTO 3

Postby Domino on Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:43 am

So any thoughts on Honda's moto3 bike?
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