Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class

Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby Squidpuppet on Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:00 pm

RatsMC wrote:Something interesting in Roadracing World:

"Dani has learned a lot" said Shuhei Nakamoto. "Before, his comments were difficult to understand. He would say the machine doesn't turn, blah, blah, blah. But after the engineers made some small change, he would say it's shit in all the corners. Now, he tells the engineers that the change made this corner better but that corner worse. I asked him to give more precise feedback because if he says everything is shit or everything is no good, then we cannot find direction. This is one reason our bike is now better."


This reminds me of my (not well received) "Boing boing" comments at the beginning of the year. :lol:

Its good to hear that his ability to describe the bikes behavior is improving. He'll only become faster.
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby RatsMC on Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:20 pm

Tormo4ever wrote:As a sidenote, regarding your comment on moto gp team economics, i ve always wondered how a private mgp team can be profitable. even considering the discounts you mention in rider's salaries , which are huge for the "backmarkers". How Gresini can keep up for so many years is beyond my nderstanding. At the end of the day, Sito Pons left the series because the team was unprofitable, and he didn't want to throw any of his money in the project. And back then, Sito had the most successful private squad in the series.

I'd really like to read more about how a team works in terms of money. How many of these teams are actually profitable. In fact this should be addressed by Dorna, as the best way to get new teams involved would be the prospect of both racing and financial achievements ...




Privateer efforts are not profitable. At all.

Some good reading if you haven't seen it already:

Peter Clifford

Herve Poncheral Part 1
Herve Poncheral Part 2
Herve Poncheral Part 3
Herve Poncheral Part 4
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby RatsMC on Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:20 pm

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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby The Scribe on Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:19 pm

Tormo4ever wrote:Personally i think Bautista in Suzuki is such a waste of talent. Why Aspar chose Barberá instead is beyond me. Maybe it s a matter of money, i don't know.

If I remember correctly, it was the other way around. Bautista decided to go to Suzuki, which left Aspar searching for a (Spanish) rider. Barberá fitted in pretty well, mainly for being from Valencia, but also for his riding (he learned to be calmy on his last year on the 250, eventually being the runner-up in 2009).

And I agree with you: anything would be better than Suzuki, but he chose his way.
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby Rusty Bucket USA on Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:53 pm

RatsMC wrote:Who else would take Hayden's ride that is qualified? He is getting that bike a lot further up the results than it has been in a long time.


Tormo4ever wrote:I agree about the work ethics, and the huge US following towards Nicky. In fact , had he won more i think he d be massively followed, outside the us too. You cannot really dislike the guy. But it kills me to see him ... how do i say this ... accepting to be second fiddle at Ducati. He left Honda after a couple lame years, i thought he was really going to step up at Ducati. I don't think this role has benefitted his racing. Having Rossi on board, i think Ducati could ve tried to sign a new name for the future ...

This kind of thinking triggers a nerve that I usually keep well protected and let pass... but not today! :x

Since Tuesday morning, how many electrons, pages, and hours have been dedicated to the idea Ducati are completely lost at sea, and now Rossi and JB are just discovering the magnitude? (put aside whether it's even true...)

Into that scenario you would inject "new blood"? Really? :!: :?:
If you don't subscribe to the Scientific Method and the idea of a control group, then consider that there needs to be at least some kind of continuity from year to year if you want to improve. Beyond that, the team have been elated with his attitude and work ethic. What other option begins to make any sense?!

"Second Fiddle" or not, it's an important role, and from what I can tell, it's a pretty enjoyable way to go about your work. As countless others have said, any improvements engineered around Rossi's and JB's needs are very likely to benefit Hayden directly. And, I guess I will need to point out that Burgess was actually looking forward to working with Hayden in '04, before he took the option to follow Rossi.
If you were in Hayden's shoes, what else would you do?!
The internal combustion engine was not put on wheels just to rest the horses.
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby Rusty Bucket USA on Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:58 pm

Big-bang or Screamer, I wonder...
Notice the (just a hint of) tire smoke:

Image
(link to full-size original)
The internal combustion engine was not put on wheels just to rest the horses.
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby RatsMC on Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:17 pm

Another extension of your points, Rusty: if the GOAT is struggling to make the Ducati run fast, what does that say about Hayden? That is not to say that Rossi wil be running around behind Hayden but it does tell you a bit about the bike and how much work Hayden has done to learn to ride it. What Hayden knows is invaluable to Rossi, JB and Preziosi.

Hayden was occasionally able to get more out of the Ducati than Stoner and occasionally had the speed of the aliens on it. If Stoner and Rossi are struggling with the bikes issues, sorting them out will almost certainly move Hayden further up the order. moving any further up puts him on the podium regularly. What factory wouldn't want Rossi and a guy who can get on the podium regularly?
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby demonv4 on Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:22 pm

Kay Tormo.. i know its not an attack n reading someones post may not come across as such so let me clear something up. I have written before that anyone in the age of the Doctor unfortunately has become the 2nd placeindividual and wondered if that is a detriment to racing. Now.. on Sete.. the ability he had in that one season was an ABSOLUTE JOY to watch because unlike Biaggi , the doctor didnt seem to phase Sete and when they got his bike right.. Sete won.. and it was a sight to behold. But in the end it comes to privateer against the powers that be. So.. Sorry for rufflin ur Gibernau feathers but i was cheering just as loud.
Now.. Casey.. he has been the only rider who has had the ability to not only control the Duc but WIN.. and when he is on.. there is NO ONE on the track who is goin to catch him. I recall last year an interview w Spies n he was asked what it was like to follow behind some of the Aliens and he said nothing out of the ordinary... except for Stoner.. I dont recall the exact quote but was to the tune of watching barely controlled chaos and he couldnt follow him and couldnt BELIEVE what he was accomplishing. With that said, If Stoner doesnt have his mystery illness of 09 and if the front end would have been figured somehow.. Who stops him. ANd honestly... do u think Ducati was gonna jump inhands on and help fullwell knowing he was gone at seasons end... REALLY!!!
Next.. IF... IF u are a fan of HAydens then u should be even moreso with what he has accomplished on a team where NO ONE ELSE truly wanted to go. He won the title basically without the help of HIS OWN FACTORY. When Pedrosa clipped him they went on record to say... oh well.. thats racing??!?!? ARE U HIGH!! He was NEVER the number one guy and when they revealed the next gen 800 he went on record saying he thought it was a PRANK. Obviously designed for the HRC Golden Child... why he is i just dont know.. Whose pictures or videos Creville has of whom is beyond me.. here lets get this out.. PEDROSA WILL NEVER BE WORLD CHAMPION IN THE PREMIERE CLASS.. Another head case which is too easy to crack.. that and i dont know.. im thinkin this injury is worse than we are all being led on. Kay... sorry im strayin.. With all that said.. who beyond HAyden has been able to actually make the Duc better and help with feedback. Hell.. it was HAydens imput late in the season to Stoner which allowed Stoner to jump up the sheets and WIN. And if it wasnt for basically SHIT LUCK this season and the bullseye which seems to be either on his bike or his leathers.. he would have finished higher.
Kay.. its really about time someone recognizes what Hayden has done and i really feel the last 2 days at VAlencia spoke volumes. Im sure the Doctor will be right there and personally i feel its gonna be one helluva year. N i agree withew on the Colin angle. I really wish he woulda gone to WSB cause id like to see him win again as well, and listening to his mid season press releases i felt for sure he would be where Malandri is headed. But ... hes not... so now... we wait 4 months and speculate and argue and predict.. UGH!!
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby Albert on Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:39 pm

There's an awful lot of bullsh*t talked about Seté and his "customer" bike!
This has already been covered in one of Rats' excellent season reviews, but in a nutshell -- Straight after the untimely death of Daijiro Kato, Seté "inherited" the Kato bike, which was the exact same spec as the full factory Repsol Hondas! (Dai Chan was Honda's favourite son after all!)
Seté's "customer" bike was given to Ryuichi Kiyonari who, sadly, didn't exactly cover himself in glory with the damned thing! (through no fault of his own - he was thrown in at the deep end without water wings!)

As a self confessed, dyed in the wool Rossi fan, who would probably bleed yellow if he was cut, I find myself at odds with the cynical digs at Nicky! (-- and Yes! I've made one or two myself in the past!)

Rusty - I'm 100% with you on this matter!

Nicky's feedback is VERY important to Ducati as they strive to shake off the tag of the bike only working well for one rider, along with the other tag of "Career killer"
Rossi has 3 versions to test! Test is maybe the wrong word - he has 3 versions to evaluate! There's a 2010 version that is very similar in spec (but not identical!) to the one that Casey rode to a well deserved 2nd place on Sunday, as well as 2 different 2011 versions which contained the new "big bang" motor and the "screamer" motor!
As well as this I understand that Valentino has 9 different configurations of front end to evalutate.

Nicky's feedback will be quite crucial! Maybe he'll get them second hand - but who gives a Rat's arse?
(Sorry Jerry - nothing personal! ;) )
The fact remains that he WILL get to test and give his opinions, because Ducati seem to be determined to shake off those previously mentioned tags!

Straight after the initial test Filippo Preziosi said --


Filippo Preziosi wrote:“It has been an exciting day for sure. The main thing that hit me today was Vale's positive feedback and his capacity for analysis. Today he tested the GP11 with the 'big bang' engine on a standard setting, which he modified step by step to adapt it to his riding style. His first comment when he lifted his visor up was a positive one about the power delivery and then he gave some impressive technical details. We certainly have a lot to do to adapt the bike to his riding style but it is really nice and very interesting to work on something like that. We worked on the geometry and setting today to see how the bike responded and to get a bit of experience working with both Vale and Jeremy (Burgess). At the end of the session he went out on the screamer version but we will make more of an analysis between the two engines tomorrow because they deliver the power in very different ways - the big bang has a more regular power curve whereas the screamer is more aggressive but also more powerful. Nicky tried both versions today and this evening we will have a look at all the data.”
I believe I'm growing sceptical of cynicism!
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby RatsMC on Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:06 am

2009 Valencia Test Times
>
 Pos  No  Rider  Bike  Time  Diff  Day 
 1  27  Casey Stoner  Ducati  1'31.899  0  Day 3 
 2  99  Jorge Lorenzo  Yamaha  1'31.939  0.04  Day 2 
 3  3  Dani Pedrosa  Honda  1'31.944  0.045  Day 3 
 4  46  Valentino Rossi  Yamaha  1'32.528  0.629  Day 2 
 5  69  Nicky Hayden  Ducati  1'32.804  0.905  Day 3 
 6  4  Andrea Dovizioso  Honda  1'32.825  0.926  Day 3 
 7  33  Marco Melandri  Honda  1'32.935  1.036  Day 3 
 8  11  Ben Spies  Yamaha  1'32.942  1.043  Day 2 
 9  36  Mika Kallio  Ducati  1'32.988  1.089  Day 3 
 10  14  Randy de Puniet  Honda  1'33.111  1.212  Day 2 
 11  65  Loris Capirossi  Suzuki  1'33.211  1.312  Day 2 
 12  41  Aleix Espargaro  Ducati  1'33.275  1.376  Day 3 
 13  40  Hector Barbera  Ducati  1'33.786  1.887  Day 3 
 14  58  Marco Simoncelli  Honda  1'33.857  1.958  Day 3 
 15  5  Colin Edwards  Yamaha  1'33.929  2.03  Day 1 
 16  19  Alvaro Bautista  Suzuki  1'34.163  2.264  Day 3 
 17  400  Hiroshi Aoyama  Honda  1'34.821  2.922  Day 3 



2010 Valencia Test Times
>
 Pos  No.  Rider  Bike  Time  Diff  Diff  Previous 
 1  99  Jorge  Lorenzo  Yamaha  1'32.012     
 2  27  Casey  Stoner  Honda  1'32.066  0.054  0.054 
 3  11  Ben  Spies  Yamaha  1'32.322  0.310  0.256 
 4  58  Marco  Simoncelli  Honda  1'32.450  0.438  0.128 
 5  26  Dani  Pedrosa  Honda  1'32.497  0.485  0.047 
 6  69  Nicky  Hayden  Ducati  1'32.583  0.571  0.086 
 7  19  Alvaro  Bautista  Suzuki  1'32.738  0.726  0.155 
 8  14  Randy  de Puniet  Ducati  1'32.836  0.824  0.098 
 9  4  Andrea  Dovizioso  Honda  1'32.942  0.930  0.106 
 10  7  Hiroshi  Aoyama  Honda  1'33.105  1.093  0.163 
 11  40  Hector  Barbera  Ducati  1'33.168  1.156  0.063 
 12  5  Colin  Edwards  Yamaha  1'33.325  1.313  0.157 
 13  35  Cal  Crutchlow  Yamaha  1'33.483  1.471  0.158 
 14  65  Loris  Capirossi  Ducati  1'33.740  1.728  0.257 
 15  46  Valentino  Rossi  Ducati  1'33.761  1.749  0.021 
 16  17  Karel  Abraham  Ducati  1'33.793  1.781  0.032 
 17  24  Toni  Elias  Honda  1'34.800  2.788  1.007 



2009/2010 by Rider
>
 Pos  No  Rider  Bike  Time  Year 
 7  19  Alvaro Bautista  Suzuki  1'32.738  2010 
 16  19  Alvaro Bautista  Suzuki  1'34.163  2009 
            
 6  4  Andrea Dovizioso  Honda  1'32.825  2009 
 9  4  Andrea Dovizioso  Honda  1'32.942  2010 
            
 3  11  Ben Spies  Yamaha  1'32.322  2010 
 8  11  Ben Spies  Yamaha  1'32.942  2009 
            
 1  27  Casey Stoner  Ducati  1'31.899  2009 
 2  27  Casey Stoner  Honda  1'32.066  2010 
            
 12  5  Colin Edwards  Yamaha  1'33.325  2010 
 15  5  Colin Edwards  Yamaha  1'33.929  2009 
            
 3  3  Dani Pedrosa  Honda  1'31.944  2009 
 5  26  Dani Pedrosa  Honda  1'32.497  2010 
            
 11  40  Hector Barbera  Ducati  1'33.168  2010 
 13  40  Hector Barbera  Ducati  1'33.786  2009 
            
 10  7  Hiroshi Aoyama  Honda  1'33.105  2010 
 17  400  Hiroshi Aoyama  Honda  1'34.821  2009 
            
 2  99  Jorge Lorenzo  Yamaha  1'31.939  2009 
 1  99  Jorge Lorenzo  Yamaha  1'32.012  2010 
            
 11  65  Loris Capirossi  Suzuki  1'33.211  2009 
 14  65  Loris Capirossi  Ducati  1'33.74  2010 
            
 4  58  Marco Simoncelli  Honda  1'32.45  2010 
 14  58  Marco Simoncelli  Honda  1'33.857  2009 
            
 6  69  Nicky Hayden  Ducati  1'32.583  2010 
 5  69  Nicky Hayden  Ducati  1'32.804  2009 
            
 8  14  Randy de Puniet  Ducati  1'32.836  2010 
 10  14  Randy de Puniet  Honda  1'33.111  2009 
            
 4  46  Valentino Rossi  Yamaha  1'32.528  2009 
 15  46  Valentino Rossi  Ducati  1'33.761  2010 



Combined 2009-2010 Times
>
 Pos  No  Rider  Bike  Time  Year 
 1  27  Casey Stoner  Ducati  1'31.899  2009 
 2  99  Jorge Lorenzo  Yamaha  1'31.939  2009 
 3  3  Dani Pedrosa  Honda  1'31.944  2009 
 4  11  Ben Spies  Yamaha  1'32.322  2010 
 5  58  Marco Simoncelli  Honda  1'32.45  2010 
 6  46  Valentino Rossi  Yamaha  1'32.528  2009 
 7  69  Nicky Hayden  Ducati  1'32.583  2010 
 8  19  Alvaro Bautista  Suzuki  1'32.738  2010 
 9  4  Andrea Dovizioso  Honda  1'32.825  2009 
 10  14  Randy de Puniet  Ducati  1'32.836  2010 
 11  33  Marco Melandri  Honda  1'32.935  2009 
 12  36  Mika Kallio  Ducati  1'32.988  2009 
 13  7  Hiroshi Aoyama  Honda  1'33.105  2010 
 14  40  Hector Barbera  Ducati  1'33.168  2010 
 15  65  Loris Capirossi  Suzuki  1'33.211  2009 
 16  41  Aleix Espargaro  Ducati  1'33.275  2009 
 17  5  Colin Edwards  Yamaha  1'33.325  2010 
 18  35  Cal Crutchlow  Yamaha  1'33.483  2010 
 19  17  Karel Abraham  Ducati  1'33.793  2010 
 20  24  Toni Elias  Honda  1'34.8  2010 
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby RatsMC on Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:08 am

So much to extract from those charts. The reason I did all that sorting is to see how RdP did and it looks like he was faster on the Ducati which surprised me.
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby Squidpuppet on Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:24 am

RatsMC wrote:So much to extract from those charts. The reason I did all that sorting is to see how RdP did and it looks like he was faster on the Ducati which surprised me.


Randy is faster on the Duc than his QP time from Saturday. :shock:

Some of that may be track conditions, but still, that is RAPID adaptation. Same with Stoner.
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby RatsMC on Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:32 am

Squidpuppet wrote:
RatsMC wrote:So much to extract from those charts. The reason I did all that sorting is to see how RdP did and it looks like he was faster on the Ducati which surprised me.


Randy is faster on the Duc than his QP time from Saturday. :shock:

Some of that may be track conditions, but still, that is RAPID adaptation. Same with Stoner.


It could be but times between the seasons were remarkably comparable.

Regardless though, it is impressive nonetheless.

I thought of including QP times but I was already underway when I thought of it. I will be able to get to it a little later if anyone cares.
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby demonv4 on Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:49 am

wow rats ... very cool n .. wow. Amazing the similarities.
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby Cam D on Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:49 am

Melandri's thoughts on the changes... from GP One
Getting back to Melandri, his initial impression is that he made a good decision. "I don't have any second thoughts about the choice I made. Over the past two days I have been at the track to see my now former colleagues, and I realized that if you don't have the right package, it's useless. The riders have now become accessories."


The Italian also commented on the results of the MotoGP test: "Everyone was expecting more from Valentino, but he will eventually come around: he has more talent than me, and more... power (political, ed). We need to see how Ducati will react. As far as Stoner is concerned, he was as fast as I expected. I don't think he has even noticed that he changed bikes..."



I was just reading an interview with Ben and he commented the he and Jorge will be sharing telemetry. A lot has been made about sharing of data especially in this years Yamaha garage. I wonder if Puig will allow Dani's info to be shared with Casey. I really doubt Casey will need it but Dani's handler has shown previously that he doesn't like to share and Dani himself said he is keen to have a wall up. Probably up to Repsol I guess.
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby lucy on Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:25 am

RatsMC wrote:Another extension of your points, Rusty: if the GOAT is struggling to make the Ducati run fast, what does that say about Hayden? That is not to say that Rossi wil be running around behind Hayden but it does tell you a bit about the bike and how much work Hayden has done to learn to ride it. What Hayden knows is invaluable to Rossi, JB and Preziosi.


Rossi is like a guy who's just left his wife for another woman - but the new flame is copiously menstruating and eating chili in bed wearing a faded Toronto Maple Leafs t-shirt. The reality is, thus far, not living up to the dream.
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby Brad on Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:45 am

Image

Captions?
...but what the hell would I know?
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby Faster1 on Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:18 am

,,not one to ever be too PC,, my observation and crystal ball future calls,,,

I'm always going to give history a kick-to-the-kerb when predicting the future so here goes.
Suzuki/Bautista is my biggest pleasant surprise. I can see many top 10's in 2011 for them,, which some of us will celebrate as victories.
Ben Speedz - you can write the consummate "How-to" succeed in motogp tech manual with his story,, He gains more popularity and respect (and speed) with every race. I'd be surprised if he wasn't top 5 in every race in 2011.
Simoncelli - will be Dovi's end. also many top 5's and a podium,,, mixed in with a few crashes.
DePunet - I'm glad that his style compliments the Duc,, IMneutralO, he will out perform Elias.

I'm calling it like I called it 3 months ago. If Stoner keeps it on 2 wheels and doesn't accept the complimentary Kalua and Creme cocktail from Puig, Stoner will have number 2 and maybe number 3 titles. His biggest threat comes from his new BFF Lorenzo. If Yamaha can keep the power up on the old engines I'll tip it to J-low for the repeat. Dani will have enough points to take the crown if there is one hic-up from the Aussi/Spanard tag team.

Which leaves 6 Ducati riders who are all completely at the mercy of the Italian Santa Claus. I wouldn't be surprised if they completely scrapped this bike to give Rossi something to smile about. If they don't Nicky and Randy might be on top. My objective opinion sees that Rossi is in trouble. The "if anyone can do it Rossi can" cheers that even I sung a few years ago doesn't seem to be enough anymore. The biggest trouble is that the other Aliens have gotten faster and there are 2 more legit title threats. At 31, his riding style is fairly etched in stone,, and so-far, it doesn't complement Stoner's bike. There better be something revolutionary on the ski slops next year. "ho ho ho Merry Christmas".

Ok Phil, give me something other than "you're just wrong". I watched the long version of the tests twice, and I saw many faster riders not wearing 46. I know "It's just a test" but 46 will have to squeeze out 4 seconds while most will only have to squeeze out 2...

end-of 2011 Crystal Ball shots
Stoner
Lorenzo
Pedrosa
Speedz
Rossi
Hayden
Simoncelli
Depunet
Bautista
Capirossi
.
. ,,
. Motogp - Where the 2014 Champion is already determined,, way to bury a series Honda
.
SPEED Vision,, Killed by SPEED Channel, All Killed by the worst media Empire in the world < FOX
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby phil on Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:14 am

Faster1 wrote:Ok Phil, give me something other than "you're just wrong".

I was reading in agreement till I got to that bit so.... Naargh mate you're just wrong...

But in all seriousness...
Stoner: gotta be the unkwown dark horse of next year. We'll see after the next testing but I think I may be tipping him for the champuionship.
Lorenzo: known to be fast and smooth and now consistant so of course a strong pick for it, but again we'll see the next tests before making any firm picks.
Rossi, the grass may not be greener on the other side and the goat may find he's eating hay till JB finds the right muck to throw on it. I suspect too many races to find the goatli-setting therefore putting a serious championship bid out of contention...you know...a bit like I said about this time in '03!
Pedrosa: unbeatable on his day but I fear he'll never give Spain what Lorenzo has.
Spies: race winner, strong contender- he'll do for '11 what Dovi did for '10 perhaps more.
Simoncelli: podiums (or 'A' podium) but continues to ruffle feathers with his riding style.
Hayden: unsure about old Nicky, at least a year as good as this with hopeful improvement.
Bautista: Top Suzuki rider! ;) He had some good finishes this year and I hope he can build on that.
Capirossi: finishing the season higher than Rossi would be a lovely kick in the nutsack over the way Ducati got rid of him before!!

I'm ad-libbing all this I haven't thought it through so I may have more to add after reflection, I simply thought as my name was thrown in there it proper to respond.
In the mean time F1...youre wrong mate....so wrong....Dont worry it happens....I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken! :D
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby ipso on Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:39 am

Tormo4ever wrote:Personally i think Bautista in Suzuki is such a waste of talent.

I’m in complete agreement there. Suzuki took my man John Hopkins and ground him down and shat him out of the GP system. To my mind Hopkins (and maybe even Vermeulen) had all of the riding skill potential Stoner had. Hoper finished 4th in 2007 on a Suzuki! Better machinery and who knows what his confidence could have supported.

Tormo4ever wrote:As a sidenote, regarding your comment on moto gp team economics ...

I'd really like to read more about how a team works in terms of money. How many of these teams are actually profitable. In fact this should be addressed by Dorna, as the best way to get new teams involved would be the prospect of both racing and financial achievements ...

In F1 revenues and distribution are state secret. I imagine Dorna follows that lead.

A huge push has been to craft the F1 series – “the formula” (read: the tech regs) – such that the massive R&D costs Venn more over actual road going automobile product. Hence, KERS and other technologies - vs. 70% of the total budget going into wind tunnel design and other technologies that cannot be directly put to work in production cars.

The same argument has already been fought and won in MotoGP. Since MSMA makes the technical regulations for MotoGP, the manufactures decide what gets R&D dollars, and what gets standardized (no R&D expense) amongst the teams.

But how great would a ranked list be of total budget by team, including rider salary (+ endorsements).

Brad wrote:Image
Captions?

“Look – it’s the ghost of Christmas Past.”
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby Rusty Bucket USA on Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:41 am

Brad wrote:Captions?

"Who eez thees girl 'lucy' and ah, what she eez ah talking about, I don't know. I look to find her, but I don't see. Very strong ah words from someone so far away, I think!"
The internal combustion engine was not put on wheels just to rest the horses.
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby motor on Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:42 am

I have this shit theory about two types of racing, and how to divide the 4 aliens based on the same...briefly, you have "speed racers" (pure killing speed, disappear from the pack) and "precision racers" (close combat, last lap adventures, save the tires and sit with the pack and use the tires and kill them in the last 1-2-3 laps, etc)

Obviously all aliens are capable of both styles, but in different proportions...

As far as precision racing in concerned, Rossi is the best, while he is somewhat capable of disappearing at the front also. Lorenzo is not as good at precision racing as Rossi, but more capable of disappearing from the pack. Stoner is the king of speed racing, and probably matches Lorenzo when it comes to close combat. Pedrosa probably matches Stoner at speed racing, but is probably the worst of the aliens at precision racing.

I think precision racing requires A LOT of feel from the bike - you just can't do stunts like that last lap pass in catalunya 2009 unless you have supremely fine feel from the bike - as well as a gifted rider with fine senses.

Speed racing requires balls, bloody skill, raw speed from the bike, and if the bike is not friendly enough, an eerie capability to bend it to your will. Basically what Stoner has. Respect.

Another point would be that a bike developed for/by a "precision racer" can be used well enough by a "speed racer", but a bike developed for/by a "speed racer" cannot be used effectively by a "precision" racer". I suspect that's what we are seeing here with Rossi/Ducati.

What automatically follows is that a bike developed for precision would be usable for anyone.

That's what Ducati probably needs right now - somebody like Rossi to give a different direction for the bike's development so that it becomes more usable for other riders.

Rossi can probably belt that bike around faster, maybe (definitely?) not as fast as Stoner, but that won't serve any purpose. He is not going to beat Lorenzo or Stoner or Pedrosa by pure speed in 2011. If he wins the championship in 2011 it won't be because he disappeared in most races, it will be because he won at least 3-4 races in close final-lap encounters.

So there really is no point in Rossi adapting himself to ride that bike like Stoner used to. I feel that we are witnessing a quite logical approach.

Sorry for the rant..
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby Faster1 on Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:47 am

phil wrote:
Faster1 wrote:Ok Phil, give me something other than "you're just wrong".

I was reading in agreement till I got to that bit so.... Naargh mate you're just wrong...

In the mean time F1...youre wrong mate....so wrong....Dont worry it happens....I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken! :D


..all proper my friend,, we both have plenty of time to embellish, and add more

and to all ,,, this is by far not a private debate,, so add in,,

from me, in a nutshell,, I,, once a Rossi disciple, strongly thinks he made a career ending decision (at his age) to leave the timex (reliable) for the movado (beautiful, but POS when it comes to reliability)

to all,, I ask,,, make me believe that this mountain is not to hi for the GOAT.
.
. ,,
. Motogp - Where the 2014 Champion is already determined,, way to bury a series Honda
.
SPEED Vision,, Killed by SPEED Channel, All Killed by the worst media Empire in the world < FOX
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby ipso on Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:55 am

lucy wrote:Rossi is like a guy who's just left his wife for another woman - but the new flame is copiously menstruating and eating chili in bed wearing a faded Toronto Maple Leafs t-shirt. The reality is, thus far, not living up to the dream.

..Like a guy at the beginning of a relationship being sat down and told, in detail, about all the past relationships...

Rossi is victim of changes.
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Re: Valencia Tests, dreams and predictions

Postby WayneG on Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:27 am

My prediction for 2011 .....

Image

If Casey becomes one with the Honda as I believe he will, then I think we could well see a repeat of 2007 with the rest of the field wondering where he went. :D For my money he is the best and fastest rider on the planet at the present time and on a bike he is fully confident with I think he may single handedly create a new category a step above "alien". {Humble pie is in the freezer ready for baking ;) }

I'll pick Ben Spies to take 2nd in the championship ahead of Jorge in a close fought battle. Ben's progression this year has been very impressive and with the step up to the factory M1 I think he will just overcome Jorge with tenacity and race craft. Lorenzo has had a stellar year this year and all congratulations to him, but I don't see a repeat championship next year. I'm hoping for some good close battles between these two.

Dani for 4th. I'd love to put him higher but despite patches of sheer brilliance he just can't seem to put a full season together.

Possibly contraversely I will pick Nicky to finish as the top Ducati ahead of Rossi. I think it going to be a far tougher job JB et al to get the Duke sorted than it was to whip the M1 into shape. They will no doubt make it competetive but probably not until mid season or later. I don't think they will get it as good as M1 or RC212V and as good as Rossi is I don't think, at this stage of his career he can beat the youngsters on a weaker bike. I think we may see the odd podium from Vale but I'll pick Nicky to top him in the championship through consistency.

Best of the rest - Simoncelli, Dovi, DePuniet

Note: Apart from 2007, my preseason selections have proven to be wildly inaccurate in the past. :D
My first love was my motorbike, we went through everything together. Wind, rain, fences..
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