Future Moto2?

[phoenix1]

The groundswell in MOTO3 is that the rules are percluding small manufacturers from competing, rumor is that a lot of the teams looking at it are now looking elsewhere.

Why would the teams care if small manufacturers are not allowed? KTM has supposedly already developed and built a Moto3 bike.

Do you mean that Dorna are shunning small teams? I can totally see that. GP is a members-and-invited-guests-only affair. It's been that way for a while now.

[oldboyonrgv]

The KTM is one of the 1215 2t's with an SMX engine in it. the formula is a continuation of what is going on in GP racing atm, restrictions and rules dumming down the technical interest.

Its more a matter of the limitations of the spec .
No MX based motors (forcing everyone to develop new motors)
control ECU (forcing everyone to use Dell Orto)
crankcases to be cast (no cnc cases then)
81Mm bore is fine but you dont need 81Mm bore to realise 14000rpm in fact the rev limit negates the need for 81MM bore because you cant rev it enough to gain the benefit of such a bore.
So basicly the rules dictate that you buy the engine (or bike) from a manufacturer NOT develop your own thus once again stunting technical development by the teams.

I may be wrong but with the 14000RPM rev limit you are looking at 45BHP with a further 4Kg weight to lug around (they raised the 136Kg limit to 140Kg) the rider who used our one last year said that the bike was far easier to ride than a good 125 2t so even rider differences will be closed up, lap times significantly slower than this year.
the racing may be close but technicaly uninteresting.

[Kropotkin]

Its more a matter of the limitations of the spec .
No MX based motors (forcing everyone to develop new motors)
control ECU (forcing everyone to use Dell Orto)
crankcases to be cast (no cnc cases then)
81Mm bore is fine but you dont need 81Mm bore to realise 14000rpm in fact the rev limit negates the need for 81MM bore because you cant rev it enough to gain the benefit of such a bore.
So basicly the rules dictate that you buy the engine (or bike) from a manufacturer NOT develop your own thus once again stunting technical development by the teams.

There's also the requirement that a manufacturer be prepared to supply at least 14 bikes, with a maximum price of 20K euros for an engine and a fixed and approved price catalogue of spares. I was contacted by a couple of engine builders interested in the class who have backed out, knowing they will only lose money in the class.

the racing may be close but technicaly uninteresting.

And that's the point. The 125/Moto3 class is no place for technical innovation, is the argument of Dorna and IRTA, it's a place for riders to learn about racing and bike setup.

[GrahamB]

HRC could have done the same thing but chose not to(remember Katoh's twin crank NSR anyone)

Actually, remember the twin-crank NSR from the year before? The one that was such a dog that a privateer RS250 motor in a TSR frame
was a superior bike? And Yamaha ran 1-2.
(The TSR heritage is why I'm happy to see the Motobi out there).

Katoh's winning bike was a face-saving exercise and it dominated because of Katoh.

The fact that a 250 chassis package cost about the same 100k€ as an FTR moto2 chassis is not the issue: there were plenty of good handling
250 chassis. The problem was that the RSA motor was streets ahead. If there had been a control 250 motor that could have been bolted into an Aprilia,
Honda or Yamaha chassis(*), I'd reckon there would have been no monopoly on winning chassis.

It seems to be working in Moto2 for the moment: you're as likely to see a Kalex, Moriwaki or FTR at either the top or bottom of the time sheet.
Sure, I think that running an IL4 600 is a bit of a shame since it looks bulky and it's common as dirt (give 'em SV650 motors!),
but the general idea of giving everyone the same hp seems a good solution for e feeder class.

Getting rid of the Dunlops would be nice though... partly to see if the better chassis could compensate for the extra hp the WSS bikes have.

(*) conceptually... obviously building a motor where you could swap the chain from left to right would pose some technical difficulties

[phoenix1]

81Mm bore is fine but you dont need 81Mm bore to realise 14000rpm in fact the rev limit negates the need for 81MM bore because you cant rev it enough to gain the benefit of such a bore.

True, but a higher rev ceiling is not the only benefit of shorter stroke. The engine can also gain revs very quickly. Though unlikely, it might be beneficial to use a bore significantly higher than 81mm which would only drive up costs. Furthermore, 81mm is the max, right? Teams could use smaller bore if they thought more torque would be beneficial.

I know the class is a technological sham; but I don't think they are keeping away small manufacturers unless you are talking about boutique manufacturers. I tend to think that banning outsiders was entirely predictable.

[TwoStroke Institute]

HRC could have done the same thing but chose not to(remember Katoh's twin crank NSR anyone)

Actually, remember the twin-crank NSR from the year before? The one that was such a dog that a privateer RS250 motor in a TSR frame
was a superior bike? And Yamaha ran 1-2.
(The TSR heritage is why I'm happy to see the Motobi out there).

Katoh's winning bike was a face-saving exercise and it dominated because of Katoh.

The fact that a 250 chassis package cost about the same 100k€ as an FTR moto2 chassis is not the issue: there were plenty of good handling
250 chassis. The problem was that the RSA motor was streets ahead. If there had been a control 250 motor that could have been bolted into an Aprilia,
Honda or Yamaha chassis(*), I'd reckon there would have been no monopoly on winning chassis.

It seems to be working in Moto2 for the moment: you're as likely to see a Kalex, Moriwaki or FTR at either the top or bottom of the time sheet.
Sure, I think that running an IL4 600 is a bit of a shame since it looks bulky and it's common as dirt (give 'em SV650 motors!),
but the general idea of giving everyone the same hp seems a good solution for e feeder class.

Getting rid of the Dunlops would be nice though... partly to see if the better chassis could compensate for the extra hp the WSS bikes have.

(*) conceptually... obviously building a motor where you could swap the chain from left to right would pose some technical difficulties

I couldn't find any good results from TSR bikes in 2000 (when Nakano/Jacque went 1-2) The Aprilia should have been the control engine. That was light years ahead of anything else

I have said it before in 250's and 125s a spurt of development always took place when Japanese rider was in the hunt for the Championship. Note how Ayoama's bike took a jump in 09, like Katoh's NSR and Nakano's YZR before

[GrahamB]

I couldn't find any good results from TSR bikes in 2000 (when Nakano/Jacque went 1-2)

I'm only going on my unreliable memory. I think for political or other reasons, the bikes weren't listed as TSR's, they were just Honda RS250...
but suddenly there were a lot of conventional swingarms. Didn't Jeremy McWilliams ride one the year he rode with the Queen's Uni Belfast team?

Also I wasn't saying it was the best bike, only that it was better than the twin-crank, swingarm pivoting in cases version of the NSR. They all got hammered
by the Aprilias and the two YZR's...

[Kropotkin]

I couldn't find any good results from TSR bikes in 2000 (when Nakano/Jacque went 1-2) The Aprilia should have been the control engine. That was light years ahead of anything else

Unfortunately, Aprilia were more interested in gouging money out of the teams (and therefore indirect, Dorna) and picking winners through access to the best bikes. So Aprilia were never going to be the control engine.

[TwoStroke Institute]

I'm only looking from a technical POV the RSW/RSA is the ultimate motorcycle race engine deserves to be up above the RC 211V engine, because it had very stiff opposition during it's reign. Honda has been just as guilty of giving the fancy bits out and strangely even handed when the NSR500 was king.

Graham there a 3 or 4 TSR bikes listed in the results of 2000. Do you have any pics of the win crank engine? I think the Europark website has shut up shop?

[Kropotkin]

I'm only looking from a technical POV the RSW/RSA is the ultimate motorcycle race engine deserves to be up above the RC 211V engine, because it had very stiff opposition during it's reign. Honda has been just as guilty of giving the fancy bits out and strangely even handed when the NSR500 was king.

Completely agree. RSA 250 and RC211V were the ultimate racing motorcycles. It's just their manufacturers which were not entirely reliable.

[GrahamB]

Graham there a 3 or 4 TSR bikes listed in the results of 2000. Do you have any pics of the win crank engine? I think the Europark website has shut up shop?

Somewhere I might still have the Cathcart articles from AMCN... he rode both the 2000 and 2001 versions. Whether they survived the move to France and then to
a new house is the question. I shall search.

I never saw a good photo of a GP-level TSR/RS, I just remember doing a double take spotting a conventional swingarm'ed privateer Honda in a gravel trap...
then reading that they were providing frames for the 250 as well as the NSR500V

Here's one that was for sale:


http://www.teloanuncio.es/anuncio-clasificado-honda-tsr-250-cc-gp-563282

My bad Spanish suggests it won the CEV title in 2000 under David Tomàs and did some wild-card GP's in 2001...

[TwoStroke Institute]

I'm only looking from a technical POV the RSW/RSA is the ultimate motorcycle race engine deserves to be up above the RC 211V engine, because it had very stiff opposition during it's reign. Honda has been just as guilty of giving the fancy bits out and strangely even handed when the NSR500 was king.

Completely agree. RSA 250 and RC211V were the ultimate racing motorcycles. It's just their manufacturers which were not entirely reliable.

Maybe more middle management accountants eye for a $$$$

Geez Graham 5500Euros where's me cheque book..............

[GrahamB]

Maybe more middle management accountants eye for a $$$$

I read somewhere that Aprilia Corse was the most profitable arm of the company: when scooter sales dived a few years
back, it was apparently the only part still bringing in the €.

Geez Graham 5500Euros where's me cheque book..............

Apparently long gone

Re NSR photos: I found the Cathcart articles on the 99, 2000 and 2001 models. Unfortunately they kept the motor
pretty well hidden, you need to be looking carefully to work out that it is a twin crank. Otoh, the change in frame
from pivotless to conventional sticks out like dogs testicles. They'd all be copyright, so I don't know if I should post them?
If you want them, send me a pm and I'll quietly fire up the scanner.

[Domino]

I couldn't find any good results from TSR bikes in 2000 (when Nakano/Jacque went 1-2) The Aprilia should have been the control engine. That was light years ahead of anything else

Unfortunately, Aprilia were more interested in gouging money out of the teams (and therefore indirect, Dorna) and picking winners through access to the best bikes. So Aprilia were never going to be the control engine.

I'd be interested in hearing Aprilia's version of what transpired. Obviously there are two side to everything and while I am sure Aprilia made money, how much they actually "gouged" anyone would be pretty open to interpretation. I suppose if you paid Aprilia's asking price, which resulted in you winning the title and ultimately ended up netting you more money in sponsorship you wouldn't feel gouged, you'd feel pretty good about your ROI. Matter of perspective I suppose...

In terms of Moto2, I haven't been that interested in it this season. I find it lacking both in terms of entertainment value as well as technological interest. I suppose that the novelty has worn off a bit as well with a return to healthier grids in WSS this season. I just don't see how Moto3 is going to offer anything really worthy of the grand prix moniker. I always think of national series as places to learn, world class racing should offer something more.

[Kropotkin]

I suppose if you paid Aprilia's asking price, which resulted in you winning the title and ultimately ended up netting you more money in sponsorship you wouldn't feel gouged, you'd feel pretty good about your ROI. Matter of perspective I suppose...

Can't argue with that ...

In terms of Moto2, I haven't been that interested in it this season. I find it lacking both in terms of entertainment value as well as technological interest. I suppose that the novelty has worn off a bit as well with a return to healthier grids in WSS this season. I just don't see how Moto3 is going to offer anything really worthy of the grand prix moniker. I always think of national series as places to learn, world class racing should offer something more.

But Moto3 and Moto2 also serve as the talent pool for MotoGP. One of the reasons for paying so much to go racing in Moto2 is the chance to meet the team managers in MotoGP (the same goes on in WSBK, I might add, with WSS and Superstock). Getting noticed is 80% of the battle.

So, while national series are a good place to learn the basics of racing, the GP paddock is where you go if you want to move on. It's a chance to learn the GP circuits and get to grips with the more exotic parts of setting up a pure racing prototype (arguments aside, even the Moto2 and Moto3 machines will have far more adjustability than any other race bike on the planet). So there isn't really anywhere else to learn.

[Domino]

I really am curious to see how the talent pool thing works out. Obviously it is VERY early to make any sort of determination as to what preparation riders are getting from Moto 2 that is beneficial in the premier class. I guess of all the riders right now Karel Abraham is probably the only one we can really use as a yardstick since Toni Elias is sort of an anomaly (leaving MotoGP then returning to still struggle). Unfortunately it seems like the rules significantly hamper the riders where they need to learn most, the electronics. It seems like they (Dorna) should have allowed a more controlled electronics package that allowed some tuning to allow the riders to learn to deal with those elements since they seem to be so important in the premier class right now.

[oldboyonrgv]

And that's the point. The 125/Moto3 class is no place for technical innovation, is the argument of Dorna and IRTA, it's a place for riders to learn about racing and bike setup.

the whole point of GP racing (all classes) is for technical innovation or where else is it going to happen?
By the time the riders are at GP level they will know how to set a bike up or how to feedback information (my 15yr old son can do it and hes not very often wrong!!) the new riders start at young ages not like the old days....
Dorna and IRTA have it all so wrong!!

[RatsMC]

the whole point of GP racing (all classes) is for technical innovation or where else is it going to happen?

I'd agree with that (and I believe Krop may as well) but Dorna doesn't really care. All they want is for riders to come from the lower classes rather than from other series. If the rider soap opera takes place entirely within the GP camera, Dorna wins. Evfry rider from outside who is successful leads to questions regarding the superiority of MotoGP.

I'm not trying to turn this into a WSBK vs. MotoGP talent discussion, I'm just pointing out what I believe Dorna's perspective is.

[Kropotkin]

And that's the point. The 125/Moto3 class is no place for technical innovation, is the argument of Dorna and IRTA, it's a place for riders to learn about racing and bike setup.

the whole point of GP racing (all classes) is for technical innovation or where else is it going to happen?

Just as soon as you can tell Dorna and IRTA who is going to finance this technical innovation, I'm sure they'd be delighted to allow it again.

[Rossifumi]

I remember reading a report quoting Bernie Ecclestone after he'd had discussions with Carmelo Ezpaleta (I'll see if I can track down a source) where Bernie was saying that the lower classes should be downgraded from world championship status to 'cup' status in order to concentrate the money (budgets, sponsorship revenue etc) on the top class. This was his plan for keeping motoGP viable and given the size of the motoGP grid he may have a point. The costs of full prototype racing are just not viable in the lower classes and are barely viable right now in the top class (how much longer will Suzuki survive in motoGP?). The future of motorcycle GP's is more spec rather than more prototype

[oldboyonrgv]

And that's the point. The 125/Moto3 class is no place for technical innovation, is the argument of Dorna and IRTA, it's a place for riders to learn about racing and bike setup.

the whole point of GP racing (all classes) is for technical innovation or where else is it going to happen?

Just as soon as you can tell Dorna and IRTA who is going to finance this technical innovation, I'm sure they'd be delighted to allow it again.

Why should Dorna worry? all they have to do is to releave the rules, its the factories that are concerned by the finance. there are lots of gifted engineers out there who are just waiting for the chance......I think you said yourself (I also mentioned it)that teams are back peddaling regarding the MOTO3 class.....
By the way David I am not having a go at you I just feel our sport is heading in the wrong direction.

[Kropotkin]

Why should Dorna worry? all they have to do is to releave the rules, its the factories that are concerned by the finance. there are lots of gifted engineers out there who are just waiting for the chance......I think you said yourself (I also mentioned it)that teams are back peddaling regarding the MOTO3 class.....
By the way David I am not having a go at you I just feel our sport is heading in the wrong direction.

I completely sympathize with your point of view, but I'm just putting Dorna and IRTA's side of the argument. The factories are indeed concerned with the finance, and their decision - with the exception of Aprilia, and KTM when Jan Witteveen has been able to persuade them - has been to ignore the smaller classes altogether. When was the last time a Yamaha won in the 250cc class? How about the 125cc class?

[Rossifumi]

[
Why should Dorna worry? all they have to do is to releave the rules, its the factories that are concerned by the finance. there are lots of gifted engineers out there who are just waiting for the chance......

last season was the first season of spec engine moto2 and 125 is still prototype - where have all these gifted engineers been up to now? Full prototype lower classes would continue with what we did have - a virtual one-make series dominated by Aprilia in their various guises.

[oldboyonrgv]

Don't believe 125 is prototype, Aprillia dictate the class they pick and choose who runs their bikes and what they can do, the only guy allowed to do development of the bikes is Aki Ajo (spelling - sorry) please read the whole thread, the people I am talking about do not work for Aprillia, where is Jan Wittermin, Harold Bartol, Jan Thiel, Jeorg Moeller all out there....all been forced out by the restrictive rules and monopolies and at the risk of putting words in their mouths disinterested by the MOTO3 and MOTO2 rules.

[Rossifumi]

Don't believe 125 is prototype, Aprillia dictate the class they pick and choose who runs their bikes and what they can do,

This is exactly my point - the rules are open for prototypes but Aprilia dominate. Not because of the rules but because no one else with the resources to compete wants to compete.