2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

[DJH]

Great lap by Stoner.

Yam's are competitive, should be a good race if it's dry.

[lebowski]

Disappointing that rain effectively ended qualifying after 25-30 minutes. Stoner ran his fastest lap after making a set-up change - running a hard front with 10 laps already on it!

Hope for a dry race and a battle at the front.

Ducati - not good. They must be seriously worried.

[Oscar]

Stoner by better than 0.4, on the hard front.

I am finding it hard to comprehend Rossi behind Abraham - no disrespect to Abraham but hell, he's riding a bike that's now officially in the rubbish bin as far as Ducati are concerned. With del Torchio stalking around the pit box of the damned, I can't imagine the atmosphere at Ducati at the moment is relaxed and comfortable.

Spies is looking really, really good, all the transition to the new riding style is done and dusted and he's suddenly found all the good things about a full-fat factory ride coming together. Lorenzo looked as happy as a man whose just been told the anaesthetic has run out but the root canal operation is going ahead anyway.

Dovi continuing the good work and seeming happy with his lot and Crutchlow just makes me smile and want to cheer him on.

De Puniet - looks as if the Duc has totally beaten him, just isn't the same man we saw last year. And I am increasingly seeing Elias leaving before the end of the season.

[Wr3ckogniz3]

Ye looks shit for ducati they could really have used all the practice sessions dry. The current ducati 11.1 still doesnt allow Rossi to get any feeling on the edge of the tyre and with these tyres and 800cc bikes that is what you have to do in order to go fast. This is not so much the case with 1000cc where you keep different lines and dont come in with high speed and full lean in corners. He obviously can be pretty fast on it as shown in 2010 for example but isnt really his riding style.
Anyways the motogp circus shouldnt have allowed the move from Ducati to Honda for Stoner he is just to fast on a compeditive bike. With the the reliable feeling of the Honda he wont bin it either. If rossi just could quali 4-5 tenths from the front his race craft would carry him along way in the races imo.

[xyx]

And I am increasingly seeing Elias leaving before the end of the season.

Aoyama, the other rider on a sat spec Honda is not doing much better. I would say that the satellite spec Hondas are perhaps even worse off than the Ducatis.

[corinthian]

Disappointing that rain effectively ended qualifying after 25-30 minutes.

Everybody knew the rain was coming, so I don't think anyone was really disadvantaged. It was a novel change to see 'em going hammer and tong from the get-go.

With del Torchio stalking around the pit box of the damned, I can't imagine the atmosphere at Ducati at the moment is relaxed and comfortable.

Classic!

Ye looks shit for ducati they could really have used all the practice sessions dry.

I'm getting the feeling that they could have been practising at Mugello since Monday and they still wouldn't be much nearer to 'solving the problem'. I'd still happily put money on Rossi finishing a fair bit higher than 12th tomorrow.

Aoyama, the other rider on a sat spec Honda is not doing much better. I would say that the satellite spec Hondas are perhaps even worse off than the Ducatis.

True. But Elias is still not quite Japanese enough to have a guaranteed ride.

[chc-pr]

Ye looks shit for ducati they could really have used all the practice sessions dry.

I'm getting the feeling that they could have been practising at Mugello since Monday and they still wouldn't be much nearer to 'solving the problem'. I'd still happily put money on Rossi finishing a fair bit higher than 12th tomorrow.

Actually, that response says it all! Just look back to what the consensus of Rossi Suppoers' opinion was in the pre season when Rossi was around the same place. Then we got "He'll be right there when the racing starts" or "when the flags drops the BS stops up" or some other comment along the lines of "Rossi is sandbagging to lull everyone into a false sense of security" or "Rossi will do at least as well as Stoner did on the Ducati" or ...

Now, we just get "I bet he does better than 12th".

[ducati1098s]

Now is the crunch time I think for Ducati and Rossi. Will the former accept the bad PR, bite the bullet and accept that the bike needs further fundamental changes or will de Torcho and others begin to apply the thumb screws to Rossi ala Melandri through the media-"Look at Abraham-Rossi is a 9 x world champ- we expected much more fight and adaptability from him."

I wouldn't mind Rossi low-siding the Duc a couple of times as at the moment I have to wonder if the bike HAS got into his head and is intimidating him. I know shit but I want him to really cane the arse off the bike and see whether at 10/10ths the feedback comes. I know that knife edge is exactly that, but at the moment it doesn't seem as if he is ever going to be fast riding within a M1/RCV envelope. Maybe £100 million euros in the bank and not being so young and reckless/fearless as he once was precludes this though....

Failing that I just hope Ducati will not exclude anything: be that significantly narrowing the V from 90 to 65 degrees or trying an alu chassis/airbox configuration. If they were to try the former am I right in thinking that this would enable the bike to have a much longer swing arm as the engine would/could move forward substantially? It seems that at present the front cylinder head is butted up against the back of the radiator and so the range of adjustability is very limited. Canting the engine back a little bit could be done but maybe thats just a band-aid. Thoughts guys?

Time and time again I have read those who have historically worked with Rossi say- "as long as you listen to him, you'll be fine." In fact there is an interview with a Mr Yoda of Kawasaki (in charge of their WSB programme) in this weeks UK mag Performance Bike. Yoda was with Yamaha until the end of 2004 and he recounts what a fantastic development rider Rossi was during the single year he worked with him in 2004 and says EXACTLy that. I think Ducati have no real choice as no one bar Abraham (astonishing) is enjoying riding the Duc- De Puniet looks beaten, Capi ready to retire, Hayden- as down-hearted as Ive ever seen him and Barabera totally anonymous.

[Tourn46]

Another session ruined this season by weather, I think at least 3 riders would have been in the 1:47's which would have been fun to see.

[JanBros]

Simo is going to win tomorrow

[Tormo4ever]

Damn rain ... spoils the racing to my liking

[corinthian]

Actually, that response says it all! Just look back to what the consensus of Rossi Suppoers' opinion was in the pre season when Rossi was around the same place. ... Now, we just get "I bet he does better than 12th".

Eh? Don't read too much into what I wrote, all I'm basing my opinion on is the fact that he's been doing far better in the races than in qualifying this year.

I've got plenty of respect for Rossi, and I've been following him since 1997 so I'm well aware of who he is, what he's done and what he's capable of. But I am not a Rossi 'supporter', and if I wanted to wave a flag it wouldn't be yellow.

[Squidpuppet]

Who thinks Elias is going to finish the season? After the ultimatum and a few improvements during wet weekends he's back to looking pretty miserable again.

If what I have read about his team insisting on their setup path, and not listening to Toni's requests is true, it'll be sad to see him leave.

[Squidpuppet]

Disappointing that rain effectively ended qualifying after 25-30 minutes.

Very anticlmactic watching them go balls out during the first ten minutes instead of the last ten. I've had enough of these 50/50 sessions.

[Squidpuppet]

I am finding it hard to comprehend Rossi behind Abraham.

And Barbera....and Hayden...

[Squidpuppet]

Anyways the motogp circus shouldnt have allowed the move from Ducati to Honda for Stoner he is just to fast on a compeditive bike. .

[9fingers]

I am finding it hard to comprehend Rossi behind Abraham.

And Barbera....and Hayden...

And on Mugello, of all the tracks...

[corinthian]

I am finding it hard to comprehend Rossi behind Abraham.

And Barbera....and Hayden...

Dennis Noyes tweeted a few things about the Ducati problems a couple of hours ago, and I think for him this weekend is a kind of turning-point for Ducati. Until now there was always a change on the way, things were always going to improve. Now it's as if he knows that the Duc's going to keep being the Duc. Rough translations, in order:

"If VR still can't 'feel' the front it means that they have the same problems with the new bike. Ducati is falling short"
"Bit by bit we're seeing how good Casey is. He used to win with a Ducati that is not competitive for VR and NH"
"It's clear that Ducati will have to make a bike with a chassis like the Japanese bikes"
(Rossi quote after Estoril) "I hope this isn't a design problem"
"Seeing Hayden with the official GP11 and Barberá and Abraham on the sat-ducs in front of Rossi makes me doubt Ducati..."

This is such a major change in tack from Noyes that I thought it would be worth mentioning as I know not everyone is on Twitter.

Also... near-complete radio silence from Alex Briggs.

[Albert]

Actually, that response says it all! Just look back to what the consensus of Rossi Suppoers' opinion was in the pre season when Rossi was around the same place. Then we got "He'll be right there when the racing starts" or "when the flags drops the BS stops up" or some other comment along the lines of "Rossi is sandbagging to lull everyone into a false sense of security" or "Rossi will do at least as well as Stoner did on the Ducati" or ...

Now, we just get "I bet he does better than 12th".

I doubt that you have read those sort of comments on this site!

I've certainly read them elsewhere and I tend to treat them with the same disdain that I treat the Second Coming of Christ!
(Which is usually announced at every Keswick Convention!)

Don't confuse those of us who inhabit this place with the moronic ramblings on places like CrassNet!

[chc-pr]

Actually, that response says it all! Just look back to what the consensus of Rossi Suppoers' opinion was in the pre season when Rossi was around the same place. Then we got "He'll be right there when the racing starts" or "when the flags drops the BS stops up" or some other comment along the lines of "Rossi is sandbagging to lull everyone into a false sense of security" or "Rossi will do at least as well as Stoner did on the Ducati" or ...

Now, we just get "I bet he does better than 12th".

I doubt that you have read those sort of comments on this site!

I've certainly read them elsewhere and I tend to treat them with the same disdain that I treat the Second Coming of Christ!
(Which is usually announced at every Keswick Convention!)

Don't confuse those of us who inhabit this place with the moronic ramblings on places like CrassNet!

I must remember to expressly EXCLUDE MTM from refs to such things - but I have done it so many times recently I figured I wouldn't need to EVERY time. Sorry for any offense to the good people here by my ommission, but even with that caveat and referencing THIS site only, one would have to say that Rossi and Ducati have significantly underperformed wrt expectations this year. I expected him to do badly, but nothing like this - especially after the 11.1 was announced and given the time they spent testing the GP12 at Mugello. Not sure where I saw it, but somewhere I read that the GP12 times wouldn't even have put them on the fron row of the grid, I think it would only have been around 7th or 8th IIRC. This is NOT good for Ducati and if it carries on I worry they will start to suffer commercially too.

[Squidpuppet]

[Dennis Noyes tweeted a few things about the Ducati problems a couple of hours ago,......

Wow!

[Oscar]

I doubt that you have read those sort of comments on this site!

Let's be honest, the odd one does appear, just like the odd 'Stoner is a crasher', 'Pedrosa can't fight' etc. - but thankfully they're so out of character that they stick out like dog's bollocks. Elsewhere they're still all over forums like a nasty skin disease but here is a small sanctuary where that fight doesn't need to be re-visited.

No follower of the sport can enjoy the sight of Rossi hobbled by a donkey amidst a field of thoroughbreds. As a Stoner supporter I wanted to see this season a decent match-up between him and Rossi to see how those two would handle the situation of bikes of such different characteristics with the positions reversed to what they have been up to now - that is, Stoner on a nimble machine where he could trust the handling and Rossi on the broadsword Ducati working out where and when the killing sweep could be achieved. If we never get to see that scenario this season, then personally, as far as the 800s era is concerned, I am going to feel 'we was robbed'.

For pretty obvious (I hope) reasons, when it comes down to the bare entrails of Rossi vs. Stoner, the three tracks that really, really matter are Mugello, Laguna Seca and Phillip Island. Right now I am feeling that Round 1 is a lost cause for that match and that is something to be lamented.

[Tourn46]

"Rossi will do at least as well as Stoner did on the Ducati"

2009 - Top Ducati = Stoner = 4th
2010 - Top Ducati = Stoner = 4th
2011 - Top Ducati = Rossi = 4th (so far)

To me it doesn't look like he is doing any worse. As I've said before, the bike stopped Casey from performing and the bike is now stopping Rossi from performing.
In 2010, Stoner finished behind a guy who missed races with a broken leg, surely it's clear that Stoner was also just as handicapped by the Ducati when you look at him on a good bike this year? When you compare Rossi from now to when he was on a Yamaha?

I'm not talking down Stoner as a rider, I'm not defending Rossi, but is this season not just further proof that the Ducati has over the last few years just not been good enough? It's not a fair basis to compare any riders stuck on this bike, it's getting really dull reading that this is proof Stoner is better, yada yada, no it's not, it's just proof that he was stuck on a crap bike and now it's Rossi's turn. The comparisons are meaningless and it's time people wake up and get over it.

[TwoStroke Institute]

Also... near-complete radio silence from Alex Briggs.

That says it all.
As I said at the start I see this all as a management issue, and sadly I think Rossi/JB will hit the exact same brick wall everyone else has.I also see the race dept being micromanaged a bit insomuch as every thing is up for grabs bar the frame and the 90deg engine. I don't doubt that the race dept/race team has done the best they can possibly do for every rider. Stoner probably got the 'not within the budget' reply and Rossi might (if not already) that 'we are Ducati we have 90 deg engines and alternative frames' coming back from upstairs.
I don't think 1000cc will be the answer they hoped for either, Oscar I think this period in the doldrums will do Rossi/JB the world of good. If anything it make them all think twice before making some inflamatory statement to the press hacks.

[lebowski]

Dennis Noyes tweeted a few things about the Ducati problems a couple of hours ago, and I think for him this weekend is a kind of turning-point for Ducati.

Corinthian - could you post his twitter a/c? I had a quick search but could not find it. Thanks.

Edit: found - comes up if search : DennisNoyes

Oh - we all better make sure this thread doesn't spear off course - certainly don't need a Stoner vs Rossi circular argument.