2011 R8 Mugello Race Topic ** Spoilers**

[Squidpuppet]

If, in fact, the LCR engineers are not incompetent, or unwilling to support HIS boutique riding style, then Elias has simply FAILED, in that he has not changed his riding style to support the geometry and design of the bike.

Isnt the profile of the Bridgestones failry traingulated. IMO Toni's hanging too far off the bike and keeping the bike too upright. In doing so, he doesnt get to the fat/flat part of the contact patch. He needs to stay more in the saddle and inline with the bike and trust the tire.

[Squidpuppet]

It sure seems like a very plausible explanation but we still have no proof that this was the cause for his tire problems as he never got to run the bike with the lower pressure.
Also one would assume that all riders run the same tire pressure? If so Stoners crew did not have the correct set up for the tires this time around as the others could run a better pace for the second part of the race.

Just speculating here.

I would specualte the every rider/crew runs different pressures in an attempt to achieve the perfect operating temperature. Rider weight, suspension preferences, different frame flex characterisitcs and on and on would all cause differing temps and wear. Look at poor Cal, they gotta solve the setup issue.

[Wr3ckogniz3]

Stoner killed mugello with à 1.47.3 in testing today! With a new swing arm apparently
Let's just hope that it was the extra laps and time on the track that explained the improved time
And not Honda taking an other leap with new upgrades.

[Squidpuppet]

Jorge LORENZO SPA Yamaha Factory Racing Yamaha 173.0 41'50.089

With the new surface, the times are too good. They need to add another lap next year.

I want all my damn 45 minutes.

[Squidpuppet]

Stoner killed mugello with à 1.47.3 in testing today! With a new swing arm apparently
Let's just hope that it was the extra laps and time on the track that explained the improved time
And not Honda taking an other leap with new upgrades.

Ohhhhhhh noooooooo. It was just getting interesting again.

[CLX]

Well, after Assen and Mugello, next one to say the Honda is laughing, singing and all conquering should really get his head checked.

The one guy who can always pull something from his bag is Lorenzo. I guess his win yesterday must feel like the sweetest since Jerez 2010. At least it is the most important, IMO. I was upset to see Stoner fall back, but you can't win them all. Hopefully his crew and him wil sort it all out form now on to not fall in the clutches of those sort of conditions. Dovizioso is getting more and more reliable and fast. I'm not sure if he has that last tenth of speed and racecraft to become a regular alien challenger and beater, but I'm getting more and more curious as to what HRC will do to him in 2012. It was nice to see Spies beat SuperSic, although it'd be much better for him if he manages to beat Dovizioso and run with Lorenzo and Stoner most of the time. The M1 is obviously capable of it. I expected a bit more from SuperSic. Did the combination of his weight and track temperature force the tyres into a greater wear than the rest of the guys and hold him back?

I don't know what to say of Rossi and the GP11.1

That was definitely not a standard Pedrosa performance, understandibly.

Carmo Ezpeleta, make sure any damn new track to the calendar is FAST AND FLOWING, for fcks sake.

[CLX]

Kudos to Bautista, by the way. I get a distinct feeling he is quite better than the Suzuki allows me to notice.

[ipso]

If, in fact, the LCR engineers are not incompetent, or unwilling to support HIS boutique riding style, then Elias has simply FAILED, in that he has not changed his riding style to support the geometry and design of the bike.

Isnt the profile of the Bridgestones failry traingulated. IMO Toni's hanging too far off the bike and keeping the bike too upright. In doing so, he doesnt get to the fat/flat part of the contact patch. He needs to stay more in the saddle and inline with the bike and trust the tire.

I don’t think Elias rides too far over on the tire. I’ll throw Hopper Shinya Nakano up for that award!



I do however think Elias rides to “low” relative to the center of the turn. It’s like he got confused early on, and is trying to be all aero in the corners. And nobody shot down my wild speculation here, so I’m sticking to it. There is something so dirty, so foreboding, about quoting yourself.

The high-COG thing does explain some of the deeper puzzles I’ve had: that someone like Jorge on a super-fast long sweeper would ride so upright, and why – in general – the guys in such corners are not off of the bike further. Intuitively it seemed to me that if someone was way over, almost like a side-car, the contact patch would be larger, being away from the tire edge (and you’d be able to use more upright suspension!), but at the apex of super fast corners guys uniformly only get off the bike to about their butt-crack and are seemingly upright. (I submit this as Exhibit 1.)

So a secondary major epiphany for me is this (although perhaps obvious to most), a higher COG of a leaned over bike takes more of your body mass inwards to the turn - like moving toward the center of a child’s merry-go-round at the park - while at that same lean angle, lowering your body down-low actually takes body mass farther away from the virtual center of that corner.

If I took a broomstick and secured it on a merry-go-round at a 45 degree angle, and had a scale at the outer bottom point – and a movable lead weight on the stick – and spun the merry-go-round at a constant rate – when I move the lead weight upwards, more toward the center, wouldn’t the measured weight decrease on the scale? (Or is that “intuitively true, but factually wrong”?) Less Gs = faster speeds without losing grip (irrespective of lean angles.)


Orange box = scale.

So it looks like we’ve found one of Elias’s problems, right? There is no way he can maintain the same corner speed as someone with a higher body position (effective COG), all other things being equal (which of course is patently false) but his style is one that turns quicker. Technically his corner speed should be lower on the big sweepers but quicker on the chicanes, to other riders, statistically - no?

I was going to tease you elsewhere SP for having like 4 serial posts in a row, all to different people. I notice right now you are 999. You can do it! (Like watching a speedometer roll over…)

[CLX]

Who else pictures see a Senna x Prost in Stoner x Lorenzo?

Raw talent and speed plus a dose of self entitlement against tremendous talent, racecraft and a huge fighting spirit. Plus it seems as if Lorenzo is the more analytical type.

Senna and Prost didn't have a Rossi, but it's quite similar, IMO.

[Squidpuppet]

I don’t think Elias rides too far over on the tire. I’ll throw Hopper Shinya Nakano up for that award!

You misunderstood me, or, I explained myself poorly, or both.

I am saying Elias does NOT lean the bike over far ENOUGH. There is more contact patch available to him near the edge, plus he'd be flexing it more which would help him generate heat. By hanging off the bike SO much, his body is actually in the way.

The old Dunlop 208GPs were very triangulated. Quick change of direction was difficult because they were so pointy and staightline stability was . But corner entry took on a whole new meaning. I found myself FORCED to sit more IN the saddle when I switched to those because you had to lean the bike over much farther to get to the big part of the tire, which was BIG, and flat. It took some getting used to because it was doing two new "wrong/scary" things at once, but it translated into a "Correct" recipe for higher corner speed.

[ipso]

I understand now what you’re saying about Elias, and agree.

Yes, those Dunlops were surely unique with that egg-shaped profile. I too found the feel funky on the track (compared to my ‘roundie’ Michelin Pilot Powers, and later 2CTs.) Logically it makes perfect sense, so I’ve always wondered why we don’t see more egg-shaped tires in MotoGP. But they have a very roundie profile by comparison.



God that rubber looks inviting; compelling.

I'm not sure if this is applicable here as I haven't been able to catch up on all the posts yet... but I've seen in a few places arguments about Stoner's tyre pressure - Some people are basically saying that by using "incorrect" could mean the pressure was too low (to basically try and argue that he did his fast laps on cold tyres, I have no idea why)... categorically on the BBC coverage after the race in park firmé, Stoner said his tire pressure was too high.

Just wasn't sure if everyone else had this information, or had seen it.

grahamb started it all here. It’s all his fault!
(Unfortunately on the main MM site bookmarks to specific comments do not account for the banner – so you have to up-arrow a few ticks.)

[Gustav O]

I would specualte the every rider/crew runs different pressures in an attempt to achieve the perfect operating temperature. Rider weight, suspension preferences, different frame flex characterisitcs and on and on would all cause differing temps and wear. Look at poor Cal, they gotta solve the setup issue.

Of course that is a parameter that they are working with but I think that it is one of the more selldom changed things and I would say that they run what pressure Bridgestone tell them to. Would be interesting to know what pressures they had in the race but I guess we will never find out.
Cals problem seems more serious than just a small pressure change.

[Squidpuppet]

and I would say that they run what pressure Bridgestone tell them to.

Not any longer.

Would be interesting to know what pressures they had in the race but I guess we will never find out.

I'd like to know how much they vary from really cold days to really hot days.

[Gustav O]

Not any longer.

Haha. True!

[tom]

I would imagine that faced with a situation where the championship leading team had a different view on tire pressure to the BS guys ,they probably would take the less risky option an go with the BS recommendation as that's what the other teams will be doing. It obviously didn't work but I understand why they made the decision they did.

[Cam D]

In the post race test Stoner and Simo made some (similar) large gains, but I wondered if Dovi got his hands on the full upgrade as he didn't make any where near the same improvement?

[motor]

IIRC the 1:47s from Stoner and Single came quite late in the day, so a part of it is due to the track conditions

[Squidpuppet]

Bautista question. What happened to him. While watching the race it appeared that he faded, but that is not true. Looking at his lap times, he was going quite well and consistent, doing his best lap of 1'49.448 on lap 14. Then on lap 16 he did a 2'03.465 . After that he got right back into his groove, even better than the first half of his race actually. Anyone know what happened on lap 16? That one event, whatever it was, yanked him out of much better result.

[Tormo4ever]

im one hat rates bautista highly, and i m wondering whta will be of him come 2012. The suzuki is a dog and is going nowhere. And with his resulkts , he won t be getting a sat honda or yamaha. This scarcity of bikes is robbing us some good riders too. I hope Suzuki pay him good, cos the cost of chosing them in the first place will be much higher. Not that he didn t know, i guess. Suzuki s been a career killer for a few years now.

We, or i, at least, from the outside, would just assume they re doing their best as a company for their moto gp effort. But i so much doubt it, i don t remember Suzuki being so consistently uncompetitive year after year in the 2 strokes or the superbikes. It sucks to see them out of the loop year after year.ç


This forum is quite savvy and enthusiast in iscussing technical stuff, but you hardly come across comments on the suzuki bike. Not for a few years now , people always talk the hoonda, the duke, the yamaha, but the suzuki gets no talk. Are they really not bringing anything rtelevant technically, how cann this happen to such a huge factory with so much competition experience? Seriously!

[chc-pr]

Except for those fans that started leaving halfway through the race.

Even if some did (which I personally did not see), you don't get scenes like that post-race for ANY other rider in the world.

Ah, the classic "It/he/she is popular so it must be good" arguement. That notion always makes me laugh. Speaking generally and not specifically about Rossi to avoid any confusion, why do so many people think that just because the 'moronic massess' like something it MUST be worthy? Its like saying MacDonalds is successful so it must be good. Only children and those with ignorant palates could POSSIBLY actually LIKE such plastic food.

[Squidpuppet]

Its like saying MacDonalds is successful so it must be good. Only children and the ignorant could POSSIBLY actually LIKE such plastic food.

Really? Only ignorant people enjoy McDonalds? Wouldnt it have more to do with the level of sophistication of ones palate as opposed to ones IQ or academic education?

[chc-pr]

Its like saying MacDonalds is successful so it must be good. Only children and the ignorant could POSSIBLY actually LIKE such plastic food.

Really? Only ignorant people enjoy McDonalds? Wouldnt it have more to do with the level of sophistication of ones palate as opposed to ones IQ or academic education?

Yes, I meant ignorant palate. Corrected in a moment.

[chc-pr]

Tyre Pressures, an excuse:- I really don't understand the problem here. Stoner's team or him made the wrong decision simple as that. I would much rather he just said that and moved on, instead we get this incessant complaining. So he made the wrong choice, he had to actually race someone at the end and came of second/third best.... that's racing, surely. I admire the lad immensely but I'm afraid it's all becoming too much to listen to the post race interviews. Unless he wins, he complains and it's never his fault. Maybe he should have managed the tyres better, maybe he should have lowered them based upon his and his teams thoughts, maybe he should have followed a different race strategy.

He doesn't like getting beaten, good/great, that's a racer, perfect. However, if he's beaten, it's just a myriad of excuses and non of them are laid at his or his teams doorstep. Quite frankly, I'm tired of him. It hasn't been helped by his comments re Ducati and today I see via twitter that he has allegedly had a spat with Abraham (Dennis Noyes tweet) in the pits at the 1000cc testing. Maybe, if the grids get down to 1 rider then he'll be happy.

Having been a fan from his early days, I'm really disappointed. Unfortunately/fortunately, the more competitive the other bikes become will raise my interest week on week but I think it'll be with the mute button on, at least that way I can admire him from afar, so to speak.

Why is it that people who constantly moan about Stoner complain of him moaning? I have never heard him moan, I HAVE heard him explain things and then be accused of moaning - as you have done here.

I can only conclude it is a cultural thing. Some people seem to not like teh sort of no BS straight talking that Stoner gives and so call it moaning. Frankly, if there is ANY rider in the pits that moans it Rossi - which makes it all the more strange that its usually his fans that complain about Stoner moaning.

Please - can we give the moaning issue a rest now! I am fed up with the moaning about non-existant moaning!

[Streetwise Hercules]

I think most would agree but Casey does moan about other people's riding, particularly in FP and QP.

[Gustav O]

Bautista question. What happened to him. While watching the race it appeared that he faded, but that is not true. Looking at his lap times, he was going quite well and consistent, doing his best lap of 1'49.448 on lap 14. Then on lap 16 he did a 2'03.465 . After that he got right back into his groove, even better than the first half of his race actually. Anyone know what happened on lap 16? That one event, whatever it was, yanked him out of much better result.

According to the press release he had a massive front end slide and almost crashed so I guess he went way wide and then took some time to re group.