Mugello Round: off-track stuff (2011 R8)

[JoeKing]

I don't think thats the point of Stoner's anger. CS is old school & he probably looks at following somewhat "un-gentlemenly"..cheating, if you will.

Cheating at what? There is no "result" at stake. Toseland, Ben, and now Cal have all had the luxury of a cooperative and helpful teammate to show them around the tracks. Karel is flying solo. Following a fast guy is all part of the bigger game, the whole weekend, not just the race. If the fast guy doesnt like it, he can pull over and distance himself, or run goofy lines to throw the newbie off. If a "slow" rider has the skill to stay on a "fast" riders ass for five laps, he has every right to occupy that section of the track.


No offense..but it sounds like you've never raced have you? If you don't understand how stealing lines is cheating...you're probably fine with Simoncelli's riding of late. You & I are from different eras. I have some antiquated quaint idea about the best man winning.

Karel is "flying solo" because he didn't EARN a team or teammate. It is NOT for the "fast guy" to pull over..it KA's responsibility to act "professionally" & respect what another rider is doing, & not to "RACE" anyone in practice. No, a "slow" rider DOESN'T have the right to follow & disturb anyone else's "practice" session. It is NOT a race. Screwing up someone's practice even at the most humble local club race invites the aggrieved party to justifiably open a can of whoop-ass..at least where I raced.

Further, considering their different career paths to MotoGP & social stations (Stoner's family literally selling the farm..living in a motorhome etc.) I wouldn't doubt CS looks at KA with the same respect as ..the stunters doing burn-outs in the parking lot.

I hope thats false.

Why, because he bought his way into the sport & no one should have a problem with that?

In practice the object is not just to go round & round attempting to get the lowest lap time. There are many other things being tested which often times include going fast for a portion of a lap & then letting off. No one needs a rookie trying to prove to himself that CS (or anyone else) isn't REALLY faster than me.

In testing sessions I'd agree, but not during standard FP and QP. It is a rookies goal and career objective to PROVE that he can keep up. Its racing.

NO..its PRACTICE, you "PROVE" you can "keep up" in the ...race

[Cam D]

""You can t just act the way you act and then with a little message , expect people to understand you."
In no way I read this as a clue of Pedro receiving the message, but lying about it.

I do. I also see a conscious and determined effort to not accept the apology.

Dani said...

You can t cheat on your wife and then just say "im sorry".

Right there he is saying that Simoncelli made an apology, and that is not good enough for the crime. It aslo says that Dani views Simoncellis blunder at LeMans as deliberate with intent to harm.

From MCN. Maybe the apology wasn't quite genuine enough..

Both talked to MCN and 2007 MotoGP world champion Stoner said: "I think the reason Dani refused the handshake is because Marco is refusing to believe he did anything wrong. I think if Marco admitted he did something wrong then Dani would accept it. But with Marco saying it was not his fault, I completely understand Dani's reaction."

And American Spies told MCN: "I can understand all reactions after what happened in Le Mans. The thing I’ll say about Simoncelli is that he rides his heart out and he rides hard. I think he knows the mistakes he’s made and he’s been heavily criticised for it and I can understand why Dani is upset too. I’m on neither side but I can understand why some people are upset."

[Tormo4ever]

My bad if there was no brake check, it s the impression i got from this thread ... I ve not read about this incident anywhere else ...

[Squidpuppet]

No offense..but it sounds like you've never raced have you? If you don't understand how stealing lines is cheating...

From 6 years old to 26 years old. Still do track days. I would never have had the balls to walk through the pits and tell another racer that he didnt have the right to be behind me. Again, If I cant use my superiors skill, lines, and brake points to leave him behind, I dont have the TRACK CLOUT to tell him how to ride. If he can keep pace with me, I'd be a condescending jerkwad to tell him he was slow.

it KA's responsibility to act "professionally" & respect what another rider is doing, & not to "RACE" anyone in practice. No, a "slow" rider DOESN'T have the right to follow & disturb anyone else's "practice" session. It is NOT a race.

"Keeping Pace" with the rider in front is different that "Racing" him. What is "racing" during practice anyway? If he is following, he isnt racing. If he passes, maybe he wants to "practice" faster than the guy in front of him. During my racing years in Southern California, I would have looked pretty foolish telling Jeff Ward, Johnny O, Bob Hannah et al, "Dont go past me so fast, its only practice". And I can assure, Saddleback Park and Carlsbad raceway would have erupted in laughter had I walked over to someone and said "Dont ride behind me, you are disturbing me". They would have tied pink ribbons on my bike. You know, lead or get out of the way.

Why, because he bought his way into the sport & no one should have a problem with that?

What problem should we have with that? His Dad has money and connections, and this means he has no right to be racing? That prejudiced line of thinking doesnt seem to jive with....

I have some antiquated quaint idea about the best man winning.

I guess that means "The best man who doesnt have a wealthy Dad?"

I guess Michael and Marco Andretti shouldnt be racing either, you know, since it was their Dads money and connections that afforded them the opportunity? Or Kenny Roberts, or..............

[JoeKing]

From 6 years old to 26 years old. Still do track days. I would never have had the balls to walk through the pits and tell another racer that he didnt have the right to be behind me. Again, If I cant use my superiors skill, lines, and brake points to leave him behind, I dont have the TRACK CLOUT to tell him how to ride. If he can keep pace with me, I'd be a condescending jerkwad to tell him he was slow.


Again, you're missing my point. I am not claiming Stoner, myself or anyone has some exclusive domain on a track..only the right to PRACTICE unencumbered by some "jerkwad" interfering with him. Relating to the point of this discussion, Stoner has the right to expect a fellow "professional" to keep a distance that won't impact his riding. In the (unlikely) event that your boy KA passed him, I'm sure he wouldn't give it a thought...nor would we be belaboring this point. :lol



"Keeping Pace" with the rider in front is different that "Racing" him. What is "racing" during practice anyway? If he is following, he isnt racing. If he passes, maybe he wants to "practice" faster than the guy in front of him. During my racing years in Southern California, I would have looked pretty foolish telling Jeff Ward, Johnny O, Bob Hannah et al, "Dont go past me so fast, its only practice". And I can assure, Saddleback Park and Carlsbad raceway would have erupted in laughter had I walked over to someone and said "Dont ride behind me, you are disturbing me". They would have tied pink ribbons on my bike. You know, lead or get out of the way.



Caution:.... Strawman alert!!! How do you go from KA following Stoner to me suggesting you telling Johnny O to not pass you?? I raced M/X at those places in the 70's too & NEVER in PRACTICE had any issues with fellow riders messing with me..I passed..cleanly..or got passed..no worries mate. Did the novices act differently ?:



What problem should we have with that? His Dad has money and connections, and this means he has no right to be racing? That prejudiced line of thinking doesnt seem to jive with....

I have some antiquated quaint idea about the best man winning.

I guess that means "The best man who doesnt have a wealthy Dad?
"

Again another strawman. I didn't say he "shouldn't be racing"..just NOT in MotoGP. Is your definition of the best man ..the guy who has the richest father? Then I guess you' be OK if Donald Trump bought a team & lined up at Laguna Seca. I'm not immune to hyperbole either




I guess Michael and Marco Andretti shouldnt be racing either, you know, since it was their Dads money and connections that afforded them the opportunity?[/quote]


Are you seriously comparing KA to Michael Andretti? Not the MA that raced starting at age 5 in go karts, formula cars & sports cars & WON championships BEFORE using his fathers connections..not that MA? I won't elaborate my objections to KA being in MotoGP here since its outside the perview of this discussion & no one else seems to share my righteous indignation. My point is MA, KR Jr. et al. ALL EARNED their way in by their ability & past accomplishments..KA was at best mediocre & NUMEROUS riders have demonstrated far greater ability & this upsets my naive belief in MotoGP being a meritocracy. Also shared by Wayne Gardner.

His impressive past accomplishments....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_Abraham This is a resume deserving a MotoGP ride

[Tormo4ever]

Joe King, if Karel breaks a leg it ll hurt too, you know ... the guy s proved that , he may not be a star, but he is no slouch either. he s matching lap times of much more experienced riders, race winners in other classes, on the same bike. That, no one can take away from him.

[Squidpuppet]

Again, you're missing my point. I am not claiming Stoner, myself or anyone has some exclusive domain on a track..only the right to PRACTICE unencumbered by some "jerkwad" interfering with him. "
?

I guess youd rather just say "Strawman" than actually address the points I made, which directly related to the CS/KA scenario.

If KA is following a CS at a safe distance, how is that encumbering him? IF KA passes CS, how is that "racing him"?

Meritocracy? Gimmie a break. Its never been one. You also avoided discussing Kenny Roberts Jr. He rode 250s for one year, no podiums, and moved to 500s. How did he "Earn" his ride. The list of guys who have played at the top, without having a deep and successful resume in gigantic. If they cut the mustard, great, if not they fade away.

You say "let the best man win" out of one side of your mouth, but dont want the kid to have a chance to attempt it because his Dad has money out the other side. Where in the rule book does it say that you must win X number of races/titles before entering MotoGP? Where in the rule book does it say where the financial backing must or must not come from?

Many complain that the grids are too small and that sponsorship dollars are drying up. Abraham Sr. has done us a favor then, no? Another rider gets a chance, money comes in, the grid is fuller, whats not to like? KA's arrival to the grid didnt bump anyone else off the grid, so I have to ask, where is this grudge against him coming from? Just because his Dad has money?

Are you seriously comparing KA to Michael Andretti? Not the MA that raced starting at age 5 in go karts, formula cars & sports cars & WON championships BEFORE using his fathers connections..not that MA?

LMFAO. Really Joe? Before? Who bought those gokarts? You know, the very best ones on the grid? Who opened doors for him? Every step he took was down a path groomed and paid for by Pops.

[RatsMC]

This discussion needs to get a lot less personal really quickly.

[Squidpuppet]

This discussion needs to get a lot less personal really quickly.

No hostility intended from my end. If it reads that way, I apologise.

[JanBros]

Are you seriously comparing KA to Michael Andretti? Not the MA that raced starting at age 5 in go karts, formula cars & sports cars & WON championships BEFORE using his fathers connections..not that MA? I won't elaborate my objections to KA being in MotoGP here since its outside the perview of this discussion & no one else seems to share my righteous indignation. My point is MA, KR Jr. et al. ALL EARNED their way in by their ability & past accomplishments..KA was at best mediocre & NUMEROUS riders have demonstrated far greater ability & this upsets my naive belief in MotoGP being a meritocracy. Also shared by Wayne Gardner.

His impressive past accomplishments....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_Abraham This is a resume deserving a MotoGP ride

are you serious Kenny Roberts Jr EARNED his way to the Suzuki GP-team WITHOUT he's dad's help If he's dad didn't have he's own team, he's 500-career would have counted only 1 season ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Roberts,_Jr.

I guess you being an american makes you look different at americans than to "some dude from Tsjechie who's dad is rich"

[Squidpuppet]

[
are you serious Kenny Roberts Jr EARNED his way to the Suzuki GP-team WITHOUT he's dad's help If he's dad didn't have he's own team, he's 500-career would have counted only 1 season ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Roberts,_Jr.

I guess you being an american makes you look different at americans than to "some dude from Tsjechie who's dad is rich"

Hey, I'm american.

•1988 : Motocross
•1989 : Minibike Racing
•1990 : Road racing debut 250cc Willow Springs.
•1991 : 2nd 250cc WERA Championship Yamaha
•1992 : 4th 250cc AMA Championship
•1993 : 250cc GP debut.
•1994 : 18th 250cc World Championship Yamaha
•1995 : 8th 250cc World Championship Yamaha

•1996 : 13th 500cc World Championship Yamaha
•1997 : 16th 500cc World Championship Modenas
•1998 : 13th 500cc World Championship Modenas
•1999 : 2nd 500cc World Championship Suzuki – race wins 4
•2000 : 500cc World Champion Suzuki – race wins 4
•2001 : 11th 500cc World Championship Suzuki
•2002 : 9th MotoGP World Championship Suzuki
•2003 : 19th MotoGP World Championship Suzuki
•2004 : 18th MotoGP World Championship Suzuki
•2005 : 11th MotoGP World Championship Suzuki
•2006 : 6th MotoGP World Championship KR211V
•2007 : 24th MotoGP World Championship KR212V

[JoeKing]

Again, you're missing my point. I am not claiming Stoner, myself or anyone has some exclusive domain on a track..only the right to PRACTICE unencumbered by some "jerkwad" interfering with him. "
?

I guess youd rather just say "Strawman" than actually address the points I made, which directly related to the CS/KA scenario.


I called strawman re: Johnny O not KA/CS. I think we've beaten the point to submission.



If KA is following a CS at a safe distance, how is that encumbering him? IF KA passes CS, how is that "racing him"?



Again addressed previously by myself/others..it is stealing CS's lines & riding over his head ie. dangerous, if he crashes & takes out lead rider..see VR/CS. When did KA pass CS



Meritocracy? Gimmie a break. Its never been one. You also avoided discussing Kenny Roberts Jr. He rode 250s for one year, no podiums, and moved to 500s. How did he "Earn" his ride. The list of guys who have played at the top, without having a deep and successful resume in gigantic. If they cut the mustard, great, if not they fade away.


Point taken on KR Jr. the fullness of time obscures reality. I doubt HIGHLY however you'll ever hear KA introduced as former MotoGP world champion..we'll see.


You say "let the best man win" out of one side of your mouth, but dont want the kid to have a chance to attempt it because his Dad has money out the other side. Where in the rule book does it say that you must win X number of races/titles before entering MotoGP? Where in the rule book does it say where the financial backing must or must not come from?



Scoff if you like at the mention of meritocracy, but if you think the show is improved by a bunch of grid fillers, our views differ significantly. How about this scenario..wouldn't you have rather seen Abraham Sr. sponsor a team with the most promising WSBK, Moto2 etc. rider? Sure, he can do whatever he likes..but I don't have to cheer for it. What is the conflict between my best man point & begrudging KA bought ride....was he the best prospect of the class of '10?

Speaking of financial backing, don't you find it odd that KA's fairing is only covered in KA sr.'s enterprises...if he was such a great prospect..why hasn't anyone else bought in? Every other rider has sponsorships..odd.



Many complain that the grids are too small and that sponsorship dollars are drying up. Abraham Sr. has done us a favor then, no? Another rider gets a chance, money comes in, the grid is fuller, whats not to like? KA's arrival to the grid didnt bump anyone else off the grid, so I have to ask, where is this grudge against him coming from? Just because his Dad has money?


I am NOT one of them. I'm more concerned with the QUALITY of it! Seriously, after the 1st turn what difference does it make if there are 10 or 20 riders? I'd rather see the top 10,15 or 20 riders in the world more than people just riding around 2-5 seconds/lap slower. He did (sort of) take someone's place...the place that should have gone to a more qualified rider. Wasn't Ducati approached before the Abraham deal?

Are you seriously comparing KA to Michael Andretti? Not the MA that raced starting at age 5 in go karts, formula cars & sports cars & WON championships BEFORE using his fathers connections..not that MA?

LMFAO. Really Joe? Before? Who bought those gokarts? You know, the very best ones on the grid? Who opened doors for him? Every step he took was down a path groomed and paid for by Pops.

I NEVER begrudged Abraham Sr. ( Mario Andretti or any father) from buying his son the absolute best equipment possible. My problem here lies with Abraham Sr. using his leverage/money to buy his unqualified son a place in an elite series he would never have otherwise been in. Mario A. didn't own a track which the series raced on & he didn't buy a team for his son, nor pay(off) the sanctioning body. No one ever questioned Michael's credentials when he got his 1st Indy car seat.

Rats..the moniker is JoeKing, as in I'm only..I never take stuff or mean it personally.

[RatsMC]

I NEVER begrudged Abraham Sr. ( Mario Andretti or any father) from buying his son the absolute best equipment possible. My problem here lies with Abraham Sr. using his leverage/money to buy his unqualified son a place in an elite series he would never have otherwise been in. Mario A. didn't own a track which the series raced on & he didn't buy a team for his son, nor pay(off) the sanctioning body. No one ever questioned Michael's credentials when he got his 1st Indy car seat.

MotoGP has always had riders who didn't "earned" their way in. Most of them got much worse results on much better bikes. Cardoso, Canepa, Espagaro, Haslam, etc. It's always going to be that way. The riders that earn their way in are only going to take a ride with a bike that matches their talent.

[RatsMC]

I should also say that while the comments here may not have been intended as confrontational, there was definitely room for misunderstanding. Keeping the discussion on the points rather than directing them at the opinions held by the person posting them will help to prevent any misunderstanding.

[Tourn46]

I NEVER begrudged Abraham Sr. ( Mario Andretti or any father) from buying his son the absolute best equipment possible. My problem here lies with Abraham Sr. using his leverage/money to buy his unqualified son a place in an elite series he would never have otherwise been in. Mario A. didn't own a track which the series raced on & he didn't buy a team for his son, nor pay(off) the sanctioning body. No one ever questioned Michael's credentials when he got his 1st Indy car seat.

Rats..the moniker is JoeKing, as in I'm only..I never take stuff or mean it personally.

Sorry but I don't believe there are MANY other people involved in 125, Moto2 or MotoGP that would do a significantly better job than KA on that bike at the moment.

What makes his son unqualified out of interest? I've not seen him fail qualify, I've not seen him running in last place consistently, I've not seen him pull dangerous stunts. He has every right to be there, just as much as anyone else. If his old man has a few quid to bung in their to help him then why the hell shouldn't he? Wouldn't you support your children to do whatever they love if you could? I know I would.

I really fail to comprehend this whole KA argument, I really hope he does well.

[tom]

Squidpuppet I believe the issue is not so much having a rider follow closely nor having a rider overtake but rather having a rider hanging around the racing line at silly slow speeds then speeding up trying to get in a position where they are passed closely and then latching in behind the fast rider. To get a toe the slower rider must be quite close to the fast rider and manage the situation by looking back and guessing where the fast rider is going to be on the track and when, that is not easy nor is it safe. It would be bloody distracting, annoying, disruptive and dangerous! it is not the same as an overtake in a race where the fast rider coming from behind is in control. Here the fast rider has no control and no way of really predicting the movements or speed of the slow rider, the fast rider can try to leave as much distance as possible but the slower rider is doing the opposite, trying to make the overtake as close as possible. There is none of the almost poetic predictability of 2 racers racing, where their speeds are only a couple of Kmph off each other and they are both fighting for and defending, a known race line.

Perhaps I have an over active imagination but I can imagine it being very disruptive for the faster rider and adding an additional, unpredictable and very unnecessary element danger.

I dont think Casey or any other rider would have any problems coming up behind another slower rider who was none the less trying for fast laps/testing etc. overtaking that rider and then having that rider follow for a few laps. That to my reading of the situation is a completely different scenario.

[Tourn46]

Perhaps I have an over active imagination but I can imagine it being very disruptive for the faster rider and adding an additional, unpredictable and very unnecessary element danger.

It's motorcycle racing, it's a competition, it's dangerous... these guys know what happens on the track. If you don't want people to follow you or get a tow, then go to another sport. I don't care who it is doing the moaning, they need to man up and get on with it. It's definitely one of my bug-bears when people complain about tow's, it's pretty much something that's unavoidable in the 125's and Moto2 and I see very little mention of it from comparitively inexperieced, less skilled (or should I say less developed) riders. They can cope, surely the Gods of MotoGP can?

The problem with the most recent incident is that none of us have seen it to give a true assessment.

[Oscar]

The problem with the most recent incident is that none of us have seen it to give a true assessment.

The most worthy words written on the issue!

[tom]

Edit: Deleted as I really dont wasn't to get into an argument when neither side is likely to change views on.

I will say though Tourn46, that I think you missed my point

[Oscar]

If we can get off personality issues for a moment, I suspect that one of the main bones of contention here is caused by the different regimes of 'testing' and 'practice' (or for that matter, racing).

Testing per se involves to a very great degree, the acquisition of data of a variable against a known data set. You make a change and test it to see whether it improves performance against the established criteria.

I don't know for bike testing but I do know for aircraft testing that the most critical element in successful testing is consistency against the base of every OTHER element bar the one under test. A good test pilot is one who can fly extremely accurately and add the variable under test to a platform that is in every other respect, consistent with the established data set. A valid test report isn't a result of someone taking the thing to breaking point and coming back and saying 'it's all great' (or otherwise), it's a set of numbers on a chart that a statistician would admire.

Dorna / the FIM / the MSMA has determined that testing shall take place at specified locations and times with everybody in the mix, which must make the rider's job very considerably harder. Now let's assume that, say, the desired data is for corner exit with a new swingarm. To truly determine if the new one is better than the old one, you need to establish a base: line, entry speed, throttle opening etc., with the old swingarm and then go out and do exactly the same with the new one except with, say, an earlier / harder throttle opening on exit and compare the data. A good rider will be able to see someone ahead of him on the track moving at a consistent pace and vary his run into the corner so as to arrive at the right place and in the right condition for a meaningful test.

However, if another rider is riding unpredictably as in waiting for a tow and accelerating as the test rider arrives at the corner, then that instantly destroys the consistency for the test rider and the data acquisition effort is meaningless. Imagine, perhaps, undertaking Olympic swimming selection trials in a pool while a school sports carnival is being held at the same time.

Prima facie It appears to me that what Stoner was doing was data-gathering - the intention of a 'test day', while what Abraham was doing was trying to undertake a comparative performance test of himself vs. Stoner, which is more properly a function of practice days. In Abraham's defence, I think that rookies are heavily penalised by the limited amount of 'practice' time they get but I do believe that it is inappropriate to utilise precious track time devoted to 'testing' to undertake 'practicing' - and what happened was perhaps more a clash of personal objectives than anything more substantive.

As for the notion that Stoner rides with a grudge against Abraham's personal background - puhleeze, that is something that Dean Adams dreamed up in one of the most biased, vindictive and basically garbage articles about Stoner that has appeared anywhere in the last while.

[Squidpuppet]

with him. "
?

If KA is following a CS at a safe distance, how is that encumbering him? IF KA passes CS, how is that "racing him"?

Again addressed previously by myself/others..it is stealing CS's lines & riding over his head ie. dangerous, if he crashes & takes out lead rider..see VR/CS. When did KA pass CS

Thats why I wrote "If KA is following a CS at a safe distance". Meaning, if he choses to (try) to match Stoners pace in an effort to learn and improve, he better be ready to pay the consequences without hitting Stoner.

KA didnt pass CS. I wrote "IF" he were to. My point is that even if he were to, it doesnt mean that he was dangerously "racing" Stoner. If a rider doesnt like to be followed, then he needs to be OK with someone passing him, no?

I doubt HIGHLY however you'll ever hear KA introduced as former MotoGP world champion..we'll see.

I wont argue that, but a suprise would always be welcome.

Scoff if you like at the mention of meritocracy, but if you think the show is improved by a bunch of grid fillers, our views differ significantly.

Our views on this do not differ. But if we are honest about the past, (many decades) there have always been tailender privateers (paid from their own or Dads pockets) getting lapped. If you could buy a bike, get to the race, qualify, then you were allowed to race. It's far better now actually.

Speaking of financial backing, don't you find it odd that KA's fairing is only covered in KA sr.'s enterprises.

Not at all. He didnt set the world on fire in the lower classes, and he doesnt need the money. If I were a BILLIONAIRE I wouldnt go around chasing 50 and 100K deals. Maybe Senior is sitting back waiting to see how he performs first before persuing deals, I dont know. Heck, Senior may even axe him if he doesnt perform up to expectations. I see that Karel got first crack as the team rider, but considering Seniors passion for the sport, I wont assume that he wouldnt keep the team going with a different rider if JR. starts to suck. Maybe, I dont know.

My problem here lies with Abraham Sr. using his leverage/money to buy his unqualified son a place in an elite series he would never have otherwise been in.

I dont believe that we can know that Karel would never have been there. Dad paid Dorna the required fees and thats good for Dorna and the series. Karel qualifies well within the official MotoGP requirements, (even ahead of Rossi while on a lesser bike) so I cant really see him being classified as unqualified. Weak resume? Yep. Unqualified? No. As far as "Best Prospect" from 2010, he has beaten the 2010 Moto2 World Champion in 5 out of 8 races and leads him in the Championship, on an inferior bike, in a brand new team, with no data. Maybe Karel Sr. saw something a lot (myself included) of us didnt.

[JoeKing]

[quote="Tourn46"]

Sorry but I don't believe there are MANY other people involved in 125, Moto2 or MotoGP that would do a significantly better job than KA on that bike at the moment.


Here is a partial list, feel free to make your own:

WSBK: Melandri, Checa, Haga, Biaggi, Sykes, Laverty, Haslam, Rea, Coser, Vermeulen, Smrz & Farbrizio

Moto2: Simon, Iannone, Luthi, Corsi, Talmasi, Redding & Bradl

AMA: Hayes, Young, T & R.L Hayden, Bostrom, Pegram, Zemke, & Hopkins

Misc. National Champions: British, Spainish, Australian,German, japan, Italy

And for fun: Mladin, Bayliss, McCoy, McGuiness & Martin (love the IOM guys) and no doubt many others.

[Squidpuppet]

Squidpuppet I believe the issue is not so much having a rider follow closely nor having a rider overtake but rather having a rider hanging around the racing line at silly slow speeds then speeding up trying to get in a position where they are passed closely and then latching in behind the fast rider. To get a toe the slower rider must be quite close to the fast rider and manage the situation by looking back and guessing where the fast rider is going to be on the track and when, that is not easy nor is it safe. It would be bloody distracting, annoying, disruptive and dangerous! it is not the same as an overtake in a race where the fast rider coming from behind is in control. Here the fast rider has no control and no way of really predicting the movements or speed of the slow rider, the fast rider can try to leave as much distance as possible but the slower rider is doing the opposite, trying to make the overtake as close as possible. There is none of the almost poetic predictability of 2 racers racing, where their speeds are only a couple of Kmph off each other and they are both fighting for and defending, a known race line.

Perhaps I have an over active imagination but I can imagine it being very disruptive for the faster rider and adding an additional, unpredictable and very unnecessary element danger.

Understood and totally agreed. But thats not what I was referring to. See below.

I dont think Casey or any other rider would have any problems coming up behind another slower rider who was none the less trying for fast laps/testing etc. overtaking that rider and then having that rider follow for a few laps. That to my reading of the situation is a completely different scenario.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Some "Elite" riders dont think being followed at any time, for any reason, is acceptable. I say rubish. Haul ass and leave them in the dust, and if you cant, they deserve their tow. They earned it by matching your pace. Secret lines being stolen? Rubish I say. Run some wacked out wrong lines and the kid behind you will realize that a Veteran is playing mind games and he will be on his way. FP, QP and the race are open terrain for the head game war, and the elite riders should take advantage of that, not complain about it.

[/soapbox}

[JoeKing]

Maybe Karel Sr. saw something a lot (myself included) of us didnt.[/quote]

Yep, a reflection of his ego...

[Squidpuppet]

Sorry but I don't believe there are MANY other people involved in 125, Moto2 or MotoGP that would do a significantly better job than KA on that bike at the moment.


Here is a partial list, feel free to make your own:

WSBK: Melandri, Checca,

Listing these two guys kind invalidates the rest of the list, IMO. Both have already failed miserably on FACTORY Ducatis. Hell, Melandri only managed 3 top 10s in the whole season. Karel has nearly got him beat already, on a winglet graced turtle.