CRT as Feeder Class

[SP_won]

Something Darryl Beattie said about CRT during ONE HD's Aust. telecast of the Sachsenring round got me thinking - it was along the lines of CRT not being truly competitive but possibly having value as a more relevant feeder class than Moto2.
This seems logical given the relative lack of chassis adjustability, rudimentary Suter slipper clutch and lack of electronics on Moto2 machines, and as David has mentioned on the main site, in the case of a rider like Marquez, who looks potentially ready to make the step up to MotoGP, but whose obvious factory/sponsor pathway is in gridlock at the moment, an extra year in Moto2 may serve to hamper the change (in terms of riding style and bike setup experience) to MotoGP when that time comes.
So perhaps for a rider such as Marquez (for example) learning the Bridgestones, the electronics, the power, the adjustability etc., a CRT ride would be a more relevant step than an extra year in Moto2, in the absence of other options (a factory or satellite ride).
How would a factory supported rider be assisted through the CRT ranks? What level of involvement or support could a factory give their rider? Electronics support?
Some grey areas here I think.

Edited to clarify.

[TwoStroke Institute]

Unless MotoGP is dumbed down to the level of Moto2 it will have no relevence at all other than being on the same program



Moto3 will make the gap into a yawning big chasm. Just can't fathom that Dorna would want "Moto1" as a premier catagory.

[SP_won]

No argument from me there TSI, Moto2 is at best irrelevant to MotoGP, and at worst is actually taking riders down the wrong path.
So will we see CRTs become a pseudo feeder class? Even if they are several seconds down on lap time (similar to the CBR cup bikes) they will be more relevant than Moto2 as a preparatory experience for MotoGP.
I wonder how this may effect the factory perspective on satellite teams as entry pathways for new riders. Will we see some back-handed factory support for certain CRTs? How open to interpretation are the CRT rules?
I can see why Honda would continue to support Moto2, but could we reach a position where other manufacturers (what's left of them) choose to not claim against each other for running quietly factory supported (satellite) CRTs as a training ground for their up-and-coming riders? Can a factory provide support for a CRT rider without falling foul of the rules? Honda could only claim once from each team if the others decided to support CRTs anyway, no?
I'm not trying to suggest that factories will run hopped-up CRT bikes against themselves, just trying to explore what it may mean if they look for ways to exploit CRT as a training ground.
My head is spinning

[OZintheDesert]

I heard it mentioned that the Moto2 engine contract was not going to be renewed as the Moto3 engines were available to anyone to build. It could be possible that the Moto2 could turn into a CRT lite series with supersport motors heavily modified. This could bring in the likes of Ten Kate and such. Moto2 may then become a little more like it was intentioned. I still don't see it being as good as the 2-T 250 class but it should be better than what we have now. I suspect the Spec ECU could be a problem though.

[JanBros]

couldn't find a better CRT-topic, so I just put it here :


Michael Bartholemy you probably all know is a Belgian who was team-chef for Kawasaki-GP. Now he runs the Marc-VDS team in Moto2 and the Suter-CRT-GP-project. He has from time to time a column in a Belgian magazine.

last time he talked about their CRT-project and the tests in Mugello :

at the last test, they expected to run 1'51's, since last time they had put in 1'53's. they had a new frame and lot's off development on the bike, but still only managed 1'53's (Kalio). at the end of the day Iannone also tried the bike and he too did 1'53. He reckons with a faster rider (which suggests in my eyes they are not very happy with Kalio's performance this year, that also appears from he's comment's on the last race) they could go faster and that there is potential. But if they will participate next year with this bike is still a big questionmark : depends on how BMW and Suter look at this project. And he finishes with saying the whole CRT-principle still is very unsure for 2012, and that not one CRT will have a good chance off being competitive

and for those who wonder what's keeping Scott Redding from putting in a decent performance this year : apparently he's having physicall problem's. he's body get's overheated quickly, and when that happen's his body objects : he get's tired quickly and confused and thus making stupid mistakes.

[9fingers]

Silverstone offers a chance to compare WSBK times with MotoGP. Track temp was the same (21degC) for FP1, and 2 deg difference between WSBK Q1 and MotoGP FP3.
In first session of the day, top6 of WSBK grid would've qualified in front of Rossi on the GP11.1.
In the second session of the day, top12 would've qualified in front of Rossi on the GP11.1.

MotoGP FP3 / WSBK Q1:

1 Casey STONER AUS Repsol Honda Team 2'03.487
2 Marco SIMONCELLI ITA San Carlo Honda Gresini 2'03.720
3 Ben SPIES USA Yamaha Factory Racing 2'03.942
4 Jorge LORENZO SPA Yamaha Factory Racing 2'04.099
5 Cal CRUTCHLOW GBR Monster Yamaha Tech 3 2'04.314
6 Andrea DOVIZIOSO ITA Repsol Honda Team 2'04.372
7 Nicky HAYDEN USA Ducati Team 2'05.250
1 Carlos Checa Althea Racing 2'05.477
8 Alvaro BAUTISTA Rizla Suzuki MotoGP 2'05.496
9 Hiroshi AOYAMA San Carlo Honda Gresini 2'05.570
10 Colin EDWARDS Monster Yamaha Tech 3 2'05.589
11 Randy DE PUNIET Pramac Racing Team 2'05.780
2 Maxime Berger Supersonic Racing Team 2'05.870
12 Karel ABRAHAM Cardion AB Motoracing 2'05.872
3 Tom Sykes Kawasaki Racing Team Superbike 2'05.899
4 Leon Camier Aprilia Alitalia Racing Team 2'05.937
5 John Hopkins Samsung Crescent Racing 2'05.974
13 Hector BARBERA Mapfre Aspar Team MotoGP 2'05.980
6 Michel Fabrizio Team Suzuki Alstare 2'06.023
7 Jakub Smrz Team Effenbert-Liberty Racing 2'06.029
8 Eugene Laverty Yamaha World Superbike Team 2'06.037
9 Max Biaggi Aprilia Alitalia Racing Team 2'06.044
10 Leon Haslam BMW Motorrad Motorsport 2'06.116
11 Sylvain Guintoli Team Effenbert-Liberty Racing 2'06.176
12 James Toseland BMW Motorrad Italia SBK Team 2'06.316
14 Valentino ROSSI Ducati Team 2'06.436

Considering tyre and weight disadvantages of WSBK machinery, things don't look really that bad for a CRT subclass?

[ipso]

Solid post 9fingers. Thank you. It brings hope.

[Faster1]

Solid post 9fingers. Thank you. It brings hope.

not so fast folks,, next year we will have 1000cc machines.. effectively nullifying the comparison times of the 800s

,,, then again Kallio recently wasn't even close to having competitive times on board a first article CRT machine not too long ago.

IMO - the CRTs will be lapped at some venues,,

[ipso]

Solid post 9fingers. Thank you. It brings hope.

not so fast folks,, next year we will have 1000cc machines.. effectively nullifying the comparison times of the 800s

,,, then again Kallio recently wasn't even close to having competitive times on board a first article CRT machine not too long ago.

IMO - the CRTs will be lapped at some venues,,

Whoops. Yeah – I guess there’s that - and, now that you mention it, I think Stoner said the 2012 in testing was already like a second or more faster. So much for hope.

[JanBros]

I think Stoner said the 2012 in testing was already like a second or more faster. So much for hope.

fastest non-superpole time this SBK-WE is 2.05.058
let's say Stoner is right, and we deduct 1 sec from MotoGP-times FP3, Hopkins would still be in front of Rossi ...

[9fingers]

I think Stoner said the 2012 in testing was already like a second or more faster. So much for hope.

fastest non-superpole time this SBK-WE is 2.05.058
let's say Stoner is right, and we deduct 1 sec from MotoGP-times FP3, Hopkins would still be in front of Rossi ...

While WSBK machines are 18kg heavier and equipped with lesser tyres.
(1000cc GP bikes will gain 6kg more next year.)

Stoner, in testing is less constrained by fuel limits, and might be a bit optimistic about laptimes?

[RatsMC]

Track conditions weren't entirely the same. Since MotoGP, F1 was there and laid considerable amounts of rubber down.

[Tumi]

As mentioned earlier, there have been lapped riders if the grid's been larger. I checked 1979 season, just at random, and if I understood results @ motogp.com correctly, there were 5 to 10 unlapped riders at each race, never more than 10. Including Assen, where even KR was lapped.

[Oscar]

Track conditions weren't entirely the same. Since MotoGP, F1 was there and laid considerable amounts of rubber down.

Yep, I think we can safely say that for the whole motoGp weekend the track was about as bad as it could have been, grip-wise. Also, it was a horror weekend for Rossi by anybody's standards, the focus on his time ignoring Hayden's time isn't as objective as it could be.

If we think about the CRT class as being a possible feeder other than moto2 for the motoGp class, I don't think it looks as hopeless as all that - a really good rider on a CRT machine is liable to get more notice than an average rider on a Duc (at the moment, anyway).

[sir_nj]

Getting onto the Bridgestone control tyre and using carbon brakes asap may also prove an advantage for CRT riders to be considered for big boy MotoGP rides. If it takes you half a season to get used to the tyres (and you never do... Elias) then it is a total and complete waste of everyones time. On the other hand if your results indicate you are punching well above your CRT weight then things would suggest the tyres are not going to be an issue when you switch to a prototype bike (ok, other than the current Ducati).

[tom]

I dont think the CRT bikes need to be competitive with the MotoGP bikes. You are going to have effectively 2 classes of racing who happen to be on the track at the same time. I think the CRT teams will get enough coverage in their battle with one another and who comes first second and third in that battle to survive (assuming their costs are really a lot lower than MotoGP popper).

And I dont think their lap times will determine how effective they are as a MotoGP feeder class. I think if there is enough adjust-ability in the chassis, gearbox, electronics etc, then they should work well as a feeder class. Having them as close as possible to the MotoGP guys would just be icing on the cake.

[sir_nj]

IMO - the CRTs will be lapped at some venues,,

not before they have been clipped over the back of the head for being in the way as Casey passes them

[Zaphod]

In regards to CRT being in the same ball park as Moto2 as a suitable training ground for the top level bikes............wouldn't it be cheaper, less complicated, and roughly the same performance levels of machinery if the Manufacturers dusted off the last models of their 500's and handed them out ??

Would be a better training , or learning, option for new riders.

[TwoStroke Institute]

:lol:

In regards to CRT being in the same ball park as Moto2 as a suitable training ground for the top level bikes............wouldn't it be cheaper, less complicated, and roughly the same performance levels of machinery if the Manufacturers dusted off the last models of their 500's and handed them out ??

Would be a better training , or learning, option for new riders.

Would be fantastic but alas most works 500's went to the crusher , there are a few old Harris/ROC 500's in private hands I doubt they are ready to give them up.

The CRT is doomed to fail from a sporting point of view or will work as far as Dorna is concerned to pad out the grid for telle at the start.

First problem will be getting a fast rider to ride one to get usefull feedback, up and coming riders will want to get off them ond onto a factory bike ASAP.

[Domino]

I wonder what would happen if they made the moto2 class a fixed displacement class with unlimited mods except:
1. Spec ECU with a set RPM limit, TC, launch control and data acqusition.
2. Spec fuel with a set fuel limit
3. Spec tires
4. Spec brake rotors (material and dimensions)
5. Minimum weight

Basically let the teams bring whatever they want to the table so long as they meet the above. You cost contain the teams by constraining performance through the rules but still allow innovation and variety in the field.

[TwoStroke Institute]

I wonder what would happen if they made the moto2 class a fixed displacement class with unlimited mods except:
1. Spec ECU with a set RPM limit, TC, launch control and data acqusition.
2. Spec fuel with a set fuel limit
3. Spec tires
4. Spec brake rotors (material and dimensions)
5. Minimum weight

Basically let the teams bring whatever they want to the table so long as they meet the above. You cost contain the teams by constraining performance through the rules but still allow innovation and variety in the field.

That's what they have already, but as Dovi points out, the riders don't 'learn' anything in Moto2 if we had a dumbed down Moto1 as tthe premier class(heaven forbid) it would transpose over but that desn't seem to happen.

[Domino]

I wonder what would happen if they made the moto2 class a fixed displacement class with unlimited mods except:
1. Spec ECU with a set RPM limit, TC, launch control and data acqusition.
2. Spec fuel with a set fuel limit
3. Spec tires
4. Spec brake rotors (material and dimensions)
5. Minimum weight

Basically let the teams bring whatever they want to the table so long as they meet the above. You cost contain the teams by constraining performance through the rules but still allow innovation and variety in the field.

That's what they have already, but as Dovi points out, the riders don't 'learn' anything in Moto2 if we had a dumbed down Moto1 as tthe premier class(heaven forbid) it would transpose over but that desn't seem to happen.

Not really, they have an ECU with very limited tuning and no TC, they have some chassis modifications, no gearbox ratios etc. My proposition is to have an open set of rules so that the teams can come to the table with any configuration they want as long as it fits the parameters set above. Basically you could set the displacement to 600cc (or whatever) so that the teams could use whatever engine they want or potentially build one if their resources allow. If the ECU limits the RPM to 14k RPM you aren't going to reap a whole lot of benefit from building a high reving expensive engine. You are performance limited (and therefore cost constrained) by the 14k RPM the spec fuel. The emphasis would then be on durability, power delivery etc. Riders would be able to change a lot more than they do now (chassis, transmission, clutch settings, engine mapping, traction control etc) those are all things lacking from moto2 and needed components for motogp.

[thecosman]

You mean like the initial moto2 rules?

http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfre ... f_6127.pdf


Chris
http://moto2-usa.blogspot.com/

[rumerz]

If you've ever spent any time around the aquarium biz you'll know that feeder fish go for about a dime and get eaten by various more interesting creatures. Like an orange and black Oscar.

Sometimes the Oscar won't bother eating the feeder fish and that feeder fish grows too large to eat.

Then the vicious Oscar ends up with an equal that started off as food.

[adrenalinmoto]

Comparing qualifying/Practice teims between MotoGP and WSB is a little misleading. Superbieks can be very quick over one lap (remember Steve Hislop lapping Donington Park faster on a Ducati 996 than the GP bikes years ago?) but over a full race distance there are some much bigger differenatials.

MotoGP electronics are even more sophisticated than current WSB setups, and can keep lap times much more consistent for a full race distance, which in turn lead to very different full race times between the two classes.

The only way to tell the real difference would be to run leading WSB bikes/riders against leading MotoGP riders for a full 28 laps using the same tyres etc.

As for Moto2 not beeing a suitable feeder class. Is it any worse than the 250 class was before it? There is a big gap between this and MotoGP but then there alwasy was. Good riders will rise to the top regardless of the rules in place at the time, and this will always be true, whether they come up from 250, moto2 or WSB . I'm pretty sure that Marc Marquez and Stefan Bradl (amongst others) would go well on a MotoGP macine right now if given the chance.