Ducati goings on. Part 2.

[RedJet]

Does Nicky have a contract for 2012?

Yes.

Those who have a contract through 2012 are JL, BS, CS, DP, VR, NH, MS (do not know if his is for a continued factory contract), CC, KA and I'm not sure about Bautista or Barbera.
Dovi, Aoyama, Elias, Edwards, DePuniet and Cappi are without although I'm not sure about DePuniet.

[Kropotkin]

Tourn46: Your post got deleted. It contributed nothing to the debate. We are talking about how to fix the Ducati, not who did what on the bike.

[ieism]

If there is one person in the paddock who can convince Dorna to convince Bridgestone to make a different front tire, who would that be?

Or a flexi-Marchesini frontwheel (can you tell i'm as lost as ducati is?)

What's all this talk about angle grinders in the Ducati box?

[Albert]

Sorry Albert, that is just your yello glasses talking.

I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion from the few words that I wrote!
It was more of an accolade to Casey!
However I’m not going to get bogged down with those issues. I can understand quite a lot of your (first) post and to a great extent I agree with a lot of what you say! (your turn to take a seat!)

My thoughts behind this thread was simplified by Cam D when he said -

I feel this is a thread about why Ducati are in the situation they are in, and what they are trying to do to get out of it.

Ducati are in deep doo doo - that much is plain to see. (even to a Rossi fan wearing yellow tinted glasses ) But I certainly don’t want to get stuck with a rider v rider war of words.
Any comparisons are, by now, completely irrelevant, particularly with all the changes and incarnations that the GP11/11.1/12 has gone through up until this point!

What I am interested in is ideas how Ducati could improve and what their real problem is. So please everyone, stick to the topic.

This is more the direction I had hoped we could move along.
The REAL problem?? TSI seems to have had a handle on that from very early in the development path with his theory about the “L” 4! Look back at certain problems (even with some incarnations of the WSB bike) regarding cooling and also certain geometry problems relating to the front wheel coming oh so close to the head under heavy braking!

The 990 didn’t seem to have the peculiar problems that the 800 has -- but didn’t the 990 use Ducati’s trademark trellis frame?
Is this a lightbulb moment??
Maybe a shift in frame design is what’s needed.
If the company need to prove that this chassis design works then perhaps it’s time to make it work on a WSB bike! (Bayliss seems to have got to grips with it in testing at Mugello!)
Let’s be honest, a WSB machine bears a closer resemblance to the product that Ducati want to sell!
There’s not a lot of similarity between Honda’s RC212 and their road bike range and even less between Suzuki’s GSV-R and their road bikes so I cannot see why Ducati insist on chasing this “frameless” concept when the simplest approach to their racing strategy would be an alloy frame like everyone else is using!

They can’t ALL be wrong -- can they??

[Faster1]

Dennis Noyes just tweeted that Ducati could run a twin spar chassis for 2012. Stressed it's just a rumor.

even if true,, what's the chance that they get it right on the first year? You could argue that Kawasaki never really had a good frame and to a certain extent, same for the Suzuki. Both brands had/have a myriad of other deficiencies, but it all starts with the frame..

[9fingers]

They can’t ALL be wrong -- can they??[/b][/i]

Wrong?
It is a story as old as the world.

The Japanese added so many years of research and testing in this twin spar aluminum frame (and not only), they wont throw all this effort and investments out the window, taking a very high risk gamble with a radical new solution.
They won't. Unless they are forced by a small company, with not as much to lose, that can afford developing something totally new, with the potential of superior performance.

[ieism]

Dennis Noyes just tweeted that Ducati could run a twin spar chassis for 2012. Stressed it's just a rumor.

what's the chance that they get it right on the first year?

Ehrm.... J. Burgess..... cough, cough... M1 in Rossi's bedroom....cough....

[Faster1]

Dennis Noyes just tweeted that Ducati could run a twin spar chassis for 2012. Stressed it's just a rumor.

what's the chance that they get it right on the first year?

Ehrm.... J. Burgess..... cough, cough... M1 in Rossi's bedroom....cough....

nice,, but ,, you can't clone an M1 frame then try to shoe-horn a V 4 in there,, (crumple paper sound)

[chc-pr]

Sorry Albert, that is just your yello glasses talking.

I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion from the few words that I wrote!
It was more of an accolade to Casey!

When I read the article on Wednesday I read it as a pop at Stoner for not giving 'direction' otherwise there was no point in saying it ISTM. Looks like others read it a different way. I'll leave that there.

But I certainly don’t want to get stuck with a rider v rider war of words.
Any comparisons are, by now, completely irrelevant, particularly with all the changes and incarnations that the GP11/11.1/12 has gone through up until this point!

Agreed on all points. I'll leave those there too.

[Albert]

Agreed on all points. I'll leave those there too.

I think I'll ask Krop to note this date on the calendar!

You and I are in agreement about something!

(edited to put the "k" on "ask")

[sir_nj]

One could argue that the legendary Britten has the same concept and had no problem's, but that was 20 years ago firstly, and secondly had a totaly different front. maybe something could Ducati try : a Hosack front suspension

except that it handled like a bucket of piss - Tim Hanna "The John Britten Story". I think Andrew Stroud said that there was one race where it handled beautifully, the rest of the time it was a dog and they never knew why. The reason it won was the stonk from the motor and very low frontal area so it had a good top speed. While the Britten was still being raced it had a superior motor, this is definately not the case anymore for the Duc.

The Britten also didn't use a 90deg configuration.

Lastly, the Britten was able to use any tyre they chose. Who knows with the Duc what would happen if they put a pirelli front tyre on and a bridgestone rear (or some equally bizzare combination that enables the tyres to work with it).

[Squidpuppet]

[
nice,, but ,, you can't clone an M1 frame then try to shoe-horn a V twin in there,, (crumple paper sound)

Four.

[Zaphod]

P 7 and 8/10ths down.......... apparently JB is sticking with the 11.1.........moving forwards.

Not sure how much Rossi's determination played in that lap, or how much was actual machine improvement.

Bring on race day.......we'll find out a bit more.

[Tourn46]

P 7 and 8/10ths down.......... apparently JB is sticking with the 11.1.........moving forwards.

Not sure how much Rossi's determination played in that lap, or how much was actual machine improvement.

Bring on race day.......we'll find out a bit more.

I would suggest it's more Rossi's determination/sensibility - reason being is that at the end of the session, if he bins the bike it's not such a disadvantage as having to hop on a second bike to try and throw in a good lap and potentially miss a good portion of the session.

[Tourn46]

Tourn46: Your post got deleted. It contributed nothing to the debate. We are talking about how to fix the Ducati, not who did what on the bike.

Oh you tyrant

[Kropotkin]

Tourn46: Your post got deleted. It contributed nothing to the debate. We are talking about how to fix the Ducati, not who did what on the bike.

Oh you tyrant

Damn straight! One of the benefits of being the Sole Proprietor...

[Cam D]

Interesting shot with the weight off the front

[Faster1]

[
nice,, but ,, you can't clone an M1 frame then try to shoe-horn a V 4 in there,, (crumple paper sound)

Four.

4,,, 6,, 8 you know what I mean ,, if they are not inline, an M1 clone is useless

[Faster1]

Interesting shot with the weight off the front

,, still a band-aid though.. choppers don't turn

[Cam D]

He should be wearing an open face ....

better pic

[Squidpuppet]

[
nice,, but ,, you can't clone an M1 frame then try to shoe-horn a V 4 in there,, (crumple paper sound)

Four.

4,,, 6,, 8 you know what I mean ,, if they are not inline, an M1 clone is useless

It could still be a geometric clone... Just a little narrower. Kinda, sorta.

[redmike34]

More urban myth there. Stoner was in parc ferme 9 times last year: 3 wins, two seconds, four thirds. He DNF'd 5 times.

I get the thrust of what you are saying and understand that you aren't specifically attacking Stoner - indeed you've praised him and I recognise that - but the toss-away line perpetuates the idea that the GP 10 with Stoner aboard was virtually useless. That is a gross oversimplification of the true situation.

Apologies--in my drunken stupor I forgot that winning and parc ferme didn't mean the same thing. Well... the beer and wandering around with my bald head exposed in the Laguna Seca sun all day. Forgive me.

However... I'd still stipulate that five race crashes to three race wins is not exactly a great year. Stoner also didn't win one until round 13, which... well, I can speculate as to all sorts of reasons that his last six races were a lot better than the first 12, but it would only be speculation.

In any event, what's clear (to me, at least) is that all Ducati's eggs are firmly in the Rossi basket, so... within the realm of the possible, it probably behooves them to give him whatever he wants.

[sir_nj]

Apologies--in my drunken stupor Well... the beer and wandering around with my bald head exposed in the sun all day. Forgive me.

ahhhhh, sole bro. All is forgiven, I fully understand

[Albert]

Interesting shot with the weight off the front

---- and quite a lot of scope to pull the rear wheel back as well!

[Oscar]

Interesting shot with the weight off the front

---- and quite a lot of scope to pull the rear wheel back as well!

Interesting - What session was that shot taken on, I wonder? - because it's a different swingarm from Scott Jones's shot of the arm on Friday: