Ducati goings on. Part 2.

[TwoStroke Institute]

Making a Honda clone will be commercial suicide for Ducati, they sell motorcycles(that IS the point of racing) on the fact they are not Japanese bikes and they are different.
I think they can radicaly alter the frame all they like and the bike will have the same inherent charateristics,if Ducati were to make a Honda clone they would still have to go through the 12 month gestation that the RC212V did in 2010 to get it right for the tyres. That will put them 12 months behind in development.
V angle will yield gains but that is very close to Ducati's heart.

[Rossifumi]

I'd speculate that Ducati sell more bikes on the basis that they have a cool Italian name than the technicalities. If they're going to race though, it's better for the image to be winning than languishing at the back. Ducatis' heritage was 90 degree V twins and trellis frames - they've changed the twin for a 4 already so why not change the angle too, and they've changed the trellis for carbon, so why not change again for aluminium twin spar. Ultimately, I think it matters less what can't be seen under the shiny red body work than the results.

[Albert]

Oscar, TSI, Wayne G (and all others old enough to remember!)
--------- maybe it's time to call Ken Sprayson to pop round with some Reynolds 531à la Hailwood 500 Honda 4!

[TwoStroke Institute]

Could do much worse than Ken "never charged anyone at the TT and don't intend to now" Sprayson would probably have the answer to............if anyone wanted to listen

[WayneG]

Oscar, TSI, Wayne G (and all others old enough to remember!)

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[WayneG]

We didn't get much sleep but we had a lot of fun on Norton's feather bed.

[CIN]

Can't they try a carbon twin spar frame? This way they keep the carbon (which is what most people that are not bike nuts seem to talk about) but can have the flex?

I also fail to see the fixation with the current configuration if they cannot get the feel/performance from the chassis. When you race, you race to win. People will buy more Ducati bikes when they are winning regardless of the construction then when the bike is at the back being ridden by one of the best rider currently available.


Further thoughts:

Ducati should have gone with the more powerful screamer engine. With a bike like the GP11 where you don't have the luxury of having tires designed to suit (like in 07 and 08), they should have played to their strengths. Ducati had two big strengths in the previous years. Rear grip and engine power. What they seem to have done is reduce one of their advantages (the engine) to try and improve the handling which never improved. Maybe if they played more to their strengths, they would have been closer?

IMO the biggest issue Ducati have is the tires. The speed of the bike decreased considerably in 09 and 10 when the tires became different to suit the Japanese bikes more. Suzuki is in a similar situation. Front end feel has been a problem since (this was also at the time the carbon frame was put on). I remeber reading in 06 that Stoner had big problems with the front end of the LCR and that it was because of the tires. When he went to Ducati, the fBridgestone front was much better and the falls where practically eliminated?

[Oscar]

Pre-race interview by Steve Parrish with J.B., Burgess basically said straight up that the front box can't be made to work and Ducati must go twin-spar. Burgess suggested very strongly that Ducati was seriously considering this.

[Tourn46]

Pre-race interview by Steve Parrish with J.B., Burgess basically said straight up that the front box can't be made to work and Ducati must go twin-spar. Burgess suggested very strongly that Ducati was seriously considering this.

I don't see that they have any opition. They appear to have tried everything now and they're further off the pace than ever.

I welcome any changes that will bring more riders into the mix... if Ducati can only make progress by building the bike in a different way then they have to do so.

What will make the most sales, having a road bike based on a Prototype machine (that barely resembles the road machines anyway) that isn't winning, or simply using promotion by the fact they have a machine that wins with the most popular rider in the world?

[eddahenry]

yepo they have to try something big in the ducati camp
Where VR and NH on 2 different bikes if so they seemed to have gone nowhere right next to each other and 30 secounds off the pace

[yzr750]

It was good to see Rossi on the Duc up there at the start, albeit only for half a lap.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

Where VR and NH on 2 different bikes if so they seemed to have gone nowhere right next to each other and 30 secounds off the pace

That was going to be my point, exactly. Someone definitely needs to raise the specter of the Law of Diminishing Returns. If two substantially different bikes from the same manufacturer, each with a former winner riding them, end up nose-to-tail for much of the race, then questions about design are unavoidable. I've only begun to look at the time sheets, but the similarities are striking.

Hayden, on the bike most like last year's, was (just under) 14 seconds slower this year than last. His time in this year's race would have put him again in 7th place last year, instead of the 5th he got (if someone else had run his 5th place pace, instead). Conversely, if he'd had last year's pace this year, he'd have been in front of Spies, up one position from last year.

[tom]

Rossi's fastest lap was 0.847 down on Stoner's fastest, Nicky's was 1.031 down on Stoner's. Given that you would expect Rossi to be 0.5 to 1.0 second faster than Nicky (the Repsol years), then i suspect there is a lot of head scratching in the Ducati garage, especially when Barbera is 1.177 down on stoner. So that's 3 riders on vastly different irritations of the same machine the most successful on the newest and yet there is only .33 seconds between them. There is something really not right here, ok obvious statement but seriously only 3 tenths between a 9 times works champ on the current machine and someone who has not podiumed yet on a bike 2 generations older. Ducati are going backwards.

EDIT: Got in infront of be Rusty

[Richo]

So that's 3 riders on vastly different irritations of the same machine...

Was that meant to be iterations? On second thoughts, I think you have it correct

[RatsMC]

This isn't helpful, but Rossi's bike hade the front raised so high it looked like a first gen EX250. It didn't look like a bike that had actually been designed but rather cobbled together.

[Oscar]

This isn't helpful, but Rossi's bike had the front raised so high it looked like a first gen EX250. It didn't look like a bike that had actually been designed but rather cobbled together.

Certainly did. Frankly, it looked about as desperate a choice of alternatives as one of those rope bridges across the canyon in the Indana Jones movies - you know, the ones that are the choice between it or the 200-foot high firebreathing monster? What you get when confronted by a ridicule wrapped in an enema (yes, I know I've used a similar line before..)

[tom]

So that's 3 riders on vastly different irritations of the same machine...

Was that meant to be iterations? On second thoughts, I think you have it correct

Yes I accidentally described the situation a lot better than planned

[Oscar]

Hayden, on the bike most like last year's, was (just under) 14 seconds slower this year than last. His time in this year's race would have put him again in 7th place last year, instead of the 5th he got (if someone else had run his 5th place pace, instead). Conversely, if he'd had last year's pace this year, he'd have been in front of Spies, up one position from last year.

The race was about 12 secs. quicker than 2008; Rossi backed off after Stoner dropped it so we can probably say race time was around 8 secs quicker? In other words, reasonably comparable for track conditions given the improvements of this year's bikes.

Except for Ducati. Unless I've done the maths wrong, the race time for the first Ducati home in '08 was almost 5 secs. FASTER than for the first Ducati home in '11. Drop, restart and all.

There is no way that this can be painted as progress.

[yzr750]

Hayden, on the bike most like last year's, was (just under) 14 seconds slower this year than last. His time in this year's race would have put him again in 7th place last year, instead of the 5th he got (if someone else had run his 5th place pace, instead). Conversely, if he'd had last year's pace this year, he'd have been in front of Spies, up one position from last year.

The race was about 12 secs. quicker than 2008; Rossi backed off after Stoner dropped it so we can probably say race time was around 8 secs quicker? In other words, reasonably comparable for track conditions given the improvements of this year's bikes.

Except for Ducati. Unless I've done the maths wrong, the race time for the first Ducati home in '08 was almost 5 secs. FASTER than for the first Ducati home in '11. Drop, restart and all.

There is no way that this can be painted as progress.

If we discount Stoners times because it's not fair to compare anyone else with him on the Duc, Haydens time was exactly the same (within 1 second) as his 2009 time, 2010 he went 10 seconds faster, so they are, without doubt, heading in the wrong direction. I wonder if the Duc management is looking at the raw data and wondering what the hell they have done?

[JanBros]

Certainly did. Frankly, it looked about as desperate a choice of alternatives as one of those rope bridges across the canyon in the Indana Jones movies - you know, the ones that are the choice between it or the 200-foot high firebreathing monster? What you get when confronted by a ridicule wrapped in an enema (yes, I know I've used a similar line before..)

I agree, it just doesn't look like a race bike, it looks awfull.

maybe what they did was good, but since they can't just move the engine in the frame backwards to achieve the same effect ...

I hope they won't go for an aluminium twin-spar. they can't catch-up with the japanese on that. What they do have by now, is experience with carbon-fibre chassis', so I'd say they need to build some sort off carbon-fibre twin spar . that way they can still say they are different to the others

[TwoStroke Institute]

They won't be able to make any engines for twin spar frames as they only have 2 unsed engines between Hayden and Rossi. So both of them will at some stage be starting from pit lane.
I don't think a twin spar carbon frame is a great idea, they stucture is subjected to a a lot of torsional forces and(not my area of expertise) I don't think carbon likes that, it only likes to have force in 1 plane. It's aluminium or nothing IMO.

[WayneG]

What they need is the Peter Brock Energy Polariser.
The bike is just out of harmony with the cosmic forces of the universe man.

[Albert]

I hope they won't go for an aluminium twin-spar. they can't catch-up with the japanese on that. What they do have by now, is experience with carbon-fibre chassis', so I'd say they need to build some sort off carbon-fibre twin spar . that way they can still say they are different to the others

I agree with you about Ducati's experience with Carbon, Jan, but their experience hasn't given them any big advantage over anyone! If anything it's held them back!
I agree with you that they can't catch up with the Japanese but what if they use someone else?

Bimota aren't too far away from Ducati. Nico Bakker made some fantastic frames and is currently involved with a Moto3 project. Harris might jump at the chance -- although their Moto2 isn't fantastic at the moment!

What a shame KR Snr has closed his Banbury operation now!

[JanBros]

They won't be able to make any engines for twin spar frames as they only have 2 unsed engines between Hayden and Rossi. So both of them will at some stage be starting from pit lane

I was more thinking towards next year

I agree with you about Ducati's experience with Carbon, Jan, but their experience hasn't given them any big advantage over anyone! If anything it's held them back!

that's not the carbon's fault, that's the "frameless-design's" fault

[jihem]

I'm very surprised at how blind, or delusionnal, or stubborn Ducati is in this matter. Surely they have access to more datas that we will ever have: how is it that they don't seem to realize it's all very, very wrong?

So, i'd like to take the situation from another angle. Theirs.

They have one of the best mechanic team in the world with a wise and been-there-done-that engineer at the top.
They have one of the best rider in the world, and supposely an amazing source of datas for engineers and who showed previously he can turn bikes around in a few months.
They have in Bologna one of the best racing development team there is, with hundreds of victories in several disciplines, national or international, in the last 25 years.
They have the ressources to do whatever they fell like for their MotoGP team.

What are we missing ? What might they know or encounter to make them keep on going at the same wall ?
Do they know something about CF we don't ? Have they seen something with the airbox/minimal frame problem that make they keep going ?
Were the datas from the GP12 sooooo good that they need to perservere there and make these embarrassing sunday results with its GP11.1 version ?

I personally don't buy the angle that says they need to keep going in the same directions for marketing reasons. They are very smart at selling things to the Ducatisti and if it wins, it wins, whatever the format of the frame or the engine (bar the engine being a four inline...).

So, do they have a plan behind it all or there's no one to lead Ducati Corse no more ?