After 2011, who will be the GOATEE ?

[Gustav O]

Absolutely agree, I'm sure their are many red faces at HRC / Honda today, and probably a search for a new tweeterer.

The banter between the official HRC and official Yamaha twitter accounts was really fun to follow at Sepang though - maybe they just took a tad too far?

[Nachlauf]

I laughed about it for 2 reasons. First, Casey racked up majority of his stats with Ducati, not Honda. And secondly, I find it amazing how many people start throwing handbags and digitally torch the tweeter because of something which is commonly known as fact. Much bitterness among certain people.

[Tourn46]

I laughed about it for 2 reasons. First, Casey racked up majority of his stats with Ducati, not Honda. And secondly, I find it amazing how many people start throwing handbags and digitally torch the tweeter because of something which is commonly known as fact. Much bitterness among certain people.

It's got nothing to do with fact or not... it's just a silly thing to have posted, that's all!

[Grahluk]

I'd be interested to see a single quote from any knowledgeable person supporting your view that Rossi was in decline after 2005. Frankly I think your view that a guy in just his mid twenties, one of the sport's great racers, went into a major decline thereafter is just bizarre. My impression is that you are trying to find some way to justify Rossi being beaten regularly by the three younger aliens, instead of acknowledging just how good those guys are. Rossi himself said that Stoner and the others had raised the standard of competition in MotoGP.

As for deliberate moves to force someone wide, or make them crash, have you ever watched Rossi race? Doesn't sound like it. Rossi is known for aggressive moves. Jerez 2005, Motegi 2005, Laguna Seca 2008, Motegi 2010, Jerez 2011, the list goes on. And in China Rossi was able to pass Stoner at the end of the long straight without running into him. Of course in that case he overdid it, but even the commentators in the broadcast I saw commented that Rossi could have pulled that off if he had waited a few more laps.

Why do you talk in extremes all the time? "Major decline"? No, just a slight natural decline from one's peak abilities throughout the years that happens o everyone, nothing special about it. Whether it affected him in his battle against the top 3, at least in the last 2-3 seasons, of course. It's only natural and I don't find anything interesting about it.

So in your opinion Rossi deliberately forced his opponent wide instead of just trying to arrive at the apex first in ALL of those races? Wow, I think I've found someone who dislikes Rossi even more than I do. I think there's a pretty clear difference in aggressive moves that are bordering on reckless, but made to win the corner rather than anything else (Rossis's MO throughout his career) and a move that is only done to to make the opponent lose a major amount of time, make him go off track or crash. Something like Capi on Harada back in 250s. I don't think Rossi has ever been guilty of doing that, unless you want to think he really had it in for Melandri in Motegi 2005. If move like that is made the rider should have serious penalties brought upon him.

I still don't get why you are so caught up at China 2007. I only used that as an example of the snooker-reference since it was the first thing that came to my mind. Rossi never passed Casey to the hairpin and he never was even close to doing that. He made 2 do-or-die moves there, once he went right at the edge of track on the outside and once he went to the grass and lost 3 seconds. Those aren't passes, he never was passing there and bc of that the race was determined at the end of lap 1. If you remember correctly about your commentators I can only say I'm glad I didn't have to listen to them.

First time I ever looked in this thread. Honestly I avoided it just by it's title assuming it would be a fan fest of poo throwing.
Not so bad and some interesting views being shared. It does have me questioning my memory though about China and 2007 season as a whole. The conventional wisdom and grist for partisans was that Ducati pulled a rabbit out of the hat for the 800 debut. I would agree. They clearly got the jump on the competition with what looked like a demonstrative advantage in power or what was found out to be better developed software that year. Didn't the GPC force Ducati to dismantle an entire engine for them to prove they were within the rules? I do have a magazine article somewhere on that. The result to my eyes looked like the Ducati had an extra gear or top end power. China's being discussed but my memory is not so strong on that race. Quatar though comes to mind. I thought it was a great race between Rossi and Stoner. Stoner would power past him down the straight without even the benefit of the slip while Rossi had to use the relative handling advantage of the M1 to claw back position through the cock's comb of curves. The commentators (Dorna) were exclaiming their amazement at what that Ducati was doing down the straight. That was pretty much my impression of Ducati for the season. On the horsepower tracks they could use that advantage. Before this offends any as a slight to Stoner it is not intended as so. The ill handling of the Duc in it's history has been driven home ad naseum. Whatever straight line speed it had in 2007 was more than compensated by it's lack of cornering compliance. Stoner's talent and unique knack allowed him to minimize it's deficiency and the championship duly reflected that.

Also of the opinion that Rossi hasn't so much declined as the kid's have raised the bar despite whatever advantages one bike has on another in a given year. This is as far as form and competitiveness on track pre 2010 injuries. mid-post 2010? I couldn't say. Possible. Time gets on and sometimes those kinds of interruptions can dent one's mojo. Would have been nice to see him still at Yamaha to see rather than confuse the question with the question of the Ducati. As far as this GOAT stuff? I ain't touching that. The GOAT will be whoever is your favorite for any number of reasons.

[Oscar]

It's got nothing to do with fact or not... it's just a silly thing to have posted, that's all!

The format was unnecessarily confrontational, I agree - but similar comparisons of the results have been posted on numerous sites,including GpOne and SpeedTV. People are going to use the facts to support their arguments, and whether that's a rather silly tweet or a 100-foot-long banner unfurled trackside, they are going to continue to be regurgitated.

[Zaphod]

Good grief people !!!

It's not the Stoner/Rossi comparison that makes the image laughable...............

It's the fact that it was issued from Honda, gladly now using stats from Stoners Ducati days in an effort to prove how super-dooper they are, when the facts of the matter are, once Rossi cracked the shits with how he was being treated/left for more money/left for somewhere his ego would be stroked more( I am including every concievable argument/point of view in an effort to nullify anymore groupie based arguments) ,they only won one world title..............and that was through Haydens dogged determination and consistancy, despite Honda giving him nothing like the bike he was requesting, and having his team-mate try and pull the rug out from under him via stupidity.


Where is the bitterness/ego fluffing really coming from ?


Ha-ha Honda......very funny..........but the joke is on you.



I hope they realise how lucky they are to have Stoner, and listen to his input.......unlike how he was treated at Ducati, and unlike how Honda seem to treat everybody.

[Nachlauf]

I laughed about it for 2 reasons. First, Casey racked up majority of his stats with Ducati, not Honda. And secondly, I find it amazing how many people start throwing handbags and digitally torch the tweeter because of something which is commonly known as fact. Much bitterness among certain people.

It's got nothing to do with fact or not... it's just a silly thing to have posted, that's all!

What are you so uptight about? The numbers seem to be right. Just because you don't like hearing it doesn't mean it's silly.

I hope they realise how lucky they are to have Stoner

Don't know if they realized it already. But seems like the person who tweeted it is very enthusiastic about Casey.

[Zaphod]

Agreed........but for the input he gives them as to how to move forward and improve their machine................

or because he can ride whatever they give him fast ?

All manufactures are guilty of the following, but Honda seem to lead the charge when it comes to the old,

"There's nothing wrong with the bike, the rider just has to adapt to it"

[phil]

Would it be arrorgant or deluded to consider if our little gang had a hand in this??

[Oscar]

Agreed........but for the input he gives them as to how to move forward and improve their machine................

or because he can ride whatever they give him fast ?

Well, Nakamoto is the one putting his hand in his pocket to do what Stoner asks - and he says he's happy to do it because everything Stoner asks for, the bike goes faster as a result. The 'Stoner develops for Stoner' argument is almost certainly valid - by the end of the season Stoner was really rather cleaning the floor with Pedrosa (Motegi tank-slappers excepted) but to be realistic - if you can see something will make you faster, are you going to say 'no, let's not do that, it isn't fair for my team-mate?' Pedrosa didn't exactly take that line in '06 - though that was probably NOT his doing, but Puig's influence at Repsol, to be fair.

[RatsMC]

What are you so uptight about? The numbers seem to be right. Just because you don't like hearing it doesn't mean it's silly.

He's not arguing about the stats, his comment is that for HRC to post this from their official feed appears a bit immature. Bragging about your achievements while pointing out how they are better than someone else's is rarely endearing regardless of who you are loyal to.

[Sloth27]

He's not arguing about the stats, his comment is that for HRC to post this from their official feed appears a bit immature. Bragging about your achievements while pointing out how they are better than someone else's is rarely endearing regardless of who you are loyal to.

Not that I necessarily agree with what HRC posted, but Valentino has hardly been backward in bragging about his achievements. As a specific example, celebrating 46 wins with Yamaha when Lorenzo won the Championship was a bit much for me...

[Cam D]

a fan fest of poo throwing.

Gold!

[breganzane]

The result to my eyes looked like the Ducati had an extra gear or top end power. China's being discussed but my memory is not so strong on that race. Quatar though comes to mind.

I enjoyed your posting. I still recall the phenominal power advantage Ducati (ie Stoner) had at that race, never seen anything like it before, even in the old days of the "Honda lane" at Hockenheim (RIP). But as you allude, and as many people (generally of a certain persuasion) forget, Qatar was the first race of a new formula. The advantage was very quickly reduced so that by just a few races into the season they had nothing like that stark power advantage - see Rd4 China.

I recall at the time an article explaining that both Honda and particularly Yamaha had been way too conservative on their fuel consumption for that first race, erring on the side of caution and that VR finished the race with a litre or two of fuel remaining, while the Duc was dry. To run out of fuel would be to lose face the article argued, not something the Japanese enjoy. As soon as the Jap bikes reduced their fuel contingency the performance was very quickly much more equal. Stoner & the other Ducs still had a slight speed advantage, but as you say that was to be balanced by the other deficiencies of the machine.

Edit: fixed quoting errors

[RatsMC]

The advantage was very quickly reduced so that by just a few races into the season they had nothing like that stark power advantage - see Rd4 China.

A brilliant point that has been completely lost to history and collective memory. There seems to be this perception that Ducati had so much power that no one else was in the game the entire season and that simply isn't true. Unfortunately, what people remember is what will go down as history.

[breganzane]

Such is life Rats'. The performance at Qatar was so devastating that it's hard not to stick in the memory. Casey must have been LHAO inside his helmet with such an advantage. I recall it looked like he even deliberately powered past well to the side so as to highlight the fact he didn't even need his air. In reality that sort of advantage did not last long, but it was awesome to watch, and some sections of the MGP community will forever and always extrapolate that to the whole season.
How Honda must have been smarting, remember how damn slow the valve spring customer 212V's were?

[Gustav O]

Not that I necessarily agree with what HRC posted, but Valentino has hardly been backward in bragging about his achievements. As a specific example, celebrating 46 wins with Yamaha when Lorenzo won the Championship was a bit much for me...

I agree that Rossis celebration that day was a bit selfish but one wrong does not negate your own wrong doings do they? I just think it was a silly post and mainly made HRC look silly as most of Stoners wins was made on a Ducati.. childish behaviour at best..

[Squidpuppet]

Would it be arrorgant or deluded to consider if our little gang had a hand in this??

I disagree with Rossi's tweet though.

"Eh eh, very easy compare the numbers between me and Stoner from 2006, when I won already 5 champs and 53 races mgp. More real [to] compare the first 5 season of me with the first 5 of Stoner."

[Squidpuppet]

Not that I necessarily agree with what HRC posted, but Valentino has hardly been backward in bragging about his achievements. As a specific example, celebrating 46 wins with Yamaha when Lorenzo won the Championship was a bit much for me...

I was a big fan before that.

[motogpmd]

I disagree with Rossi's tweet though.

"Eh eh, very easy compare the numbers between me and Stoner from 2006, when I won already 5 champs and 53 races mgp. More real [to] compare the first 5 season of me with the first 5 of Stoner."

Very odd thing for Honda to do. Wonder what their real motivation was? Or who approved the tweet?

Rossi is wrong though. Comparing his first five years with Stoner's is wrong on several counts. Rossi started his career as a works rider with the best bike and most successful team in the business. He had no outstanding competitor, Doohan was long gone.

By contrast, Stoner started in a satellite team, and for whole of his career has had to compete against Rossi, one of the greats. Rossi in 2006/7 was about the same age as Stoner now. Rossi had a massive advantage in experience over Stoner, and he was on a Yamaha, a bike both Rainey and Lawson in 2008 claimed was the best GP bike ever built. Stoner spent most of the first five years on a Ducati, a bike no-one else has been able to win on in dry conditions, including Rossi. It was like Stoner was forced to ride with a handicap. Imagine what Stoner could done on a Honda or Yamaha, as Colin Edwards pointed out recently.

[tom]

Casey's crew followed him from Ducati right? So I wonder if it was them responsible for the HRC tweet? The motivation for them tweeting those stats makes a lot more sense when you keep in mind that the stats reflect good on them as a team with Casey (both on the Honda and the Duke) it's really got nothing to do with HRC. That being the case I suspect HRC tweets will from now on be in the control of HRC insiders and not the guns for hire (Casey's crew).

[DJH]

I think that's a bit far fetched Tom.

[Tourn46]

Comparing his first five years with Stoner's is wrong on several counts.

...and comparing the last 5 years also drags up too many situations which make it impossible. 2010... broken leg... 2009 lactose intolerance... 2011 Rossi having a bike he simply did not like.

I have a suggestion... this gets put to bed until both riders have retired. We can then say this rider won x amount of races out of x amount of starts, this guy had x amount of championships... and guess what, the winner will still be the guy you prefer

/salute

[L34]

Why do people get worried about comparing riders for?
I thought the whole idea of racing was comparing yourself with your opposition.
You either beat them or get beaten by them.
The whole season is a tally of points which is then compared to everyone who raced that year and the winner is the one
with more points compared to his opponents.

Otherwise what would be the point of racing?

[tom]

I think that's a bit far fetched Tom.

I didnt mean it was a deliberate hijacking of the tweet acount or anything like that, more that it just didnt make sense for HRC to tweet those stats, while on the other hand it is something a few crew members that came across with casey would tweet (perhaps to have a poke at the Rossi JB crew). I''m guessing the banter over twitter between HRC and Yamaha at the last test was not originating from management or the PR department but rather from the two teams at the track. When you remember that a lot of Caseys team came across with him from Ducati the tweet makes a lot more sense. It doesnt make sence as a HRC tweet as it were... Not saying it was an appropiate thing to do just saying it makes more sense in this light.