2012 Sepang Test 1

[boson]

to say "the laws of physics" as if they are limiting something's performance is quite annoying to hear repeatedly when actually people mean something's engineering limitations

Ah - so the necessity to balance centrifugal force by inwards displacement of the effective c/g of the machine (rider plus bike) to maintain a steady-state rate of turn is actually an engineering compromise? Well, dang me! I better check that the turn-and-bank instrument in my airplane is calibrated to that specific aircraft so my rate turns are correct - which may be a bit of a challenge as the aircraft industry has been assuming that these so-called laws of physics are machine-independent and obstinately persists in producing instruments that foster that assumption. How COULD so many engineers have been so wrong for so long? - an investigation is required, I feel.

I think you are calling the specific equations of motion for a particular application of physics (specific lengths, masses, forces, speeds etc) a law of physics in that case.
Laws of physics are universal truths, engineers create things in order to exploit them. They explain how things interact. The laws of physics are not machine dependant, the resulting equations of motion for a particular engineering solution ARE dependant on your system. In general, a system can be designed with any goal in mind, the physics doesn't limit it, its the practicality of how you create that solution does limit it. eg at cern, physics gives you a nice set of clean equations on how to oscillate magnetic fields in order to get charged particles to some arbitrary fraction of the speed of light, but the complication comes in dealing with actually controlling this. engineering problems, not physics limits.

[Zaphod]

I don't have that RATS............... but I remember Laguna last year, the other two were no where near as consistant in their Qualifying lap times, Stoner did eventually bang out the pole time, but that was quite a step (as in a few tenths) from what his consistent pace had been, and not such a step from what Lorenzo had been running for near the entire session.

If you are referring to LS11, Lorenzo was on pole. Also Stoner, by his own admission, struggled in practice at LS11, and his race win was a surprise to many, me included.

I just don't think a comparison of consistency in practice is relevant, because Stoner approaches practice in a different way to the others. This has been commented on by his team bosses from past years. Stoner has the ability more than anyone else in MotoGP (even his competitors agree) to find the limits of the bike in just a lap or two. The other three aliens need more time to find the limits. The end result is not much different, it is just a different way of working. For example, I saw some numbers somewhere showing that Stoner did something like 1000 less kilometers than Dovizioso last year, and used one less engine. That is quite remarkable. Clearly the minimalist approach works for Stoner most of the time. Not all the time though, witness Mugello 2011.

I certainly agree that consistency in races is one of Lorenzo's strengths. But I do think that Stoner and Rossi in particular are able, and do, vary their pace as required. Not every rider can do that successfully.

That's exactly my point.
Different riders, doing different things to achieve the same result.

It's interesting as to how they go about it, and to see their different talents at work.

Maybe (it's just my theory), especially last year, the yamaha requird much more effort to get the required pace out of it, and Lorenzo did what he does to be certain ( and comfortable) that he had a package he knew was capable of maintaining the required pace for the majority of the race.

Stoner, like Hailwood and Rossi, seems to be able to arrive at that conclusion, and feel comfortable with the machine in a much shorter time.

Still, not even Stoner reels of laps with such consistancy ( by comparison to Lorenzo). It's not a bad thing (in reference to Stoner)..............it's just different.

[motogpmd]

That's exactly my point.
Different riders, doing different things to achieve the same result.

It's interesting as to how they go about it, and to see their different talents at work.

Maybe (it's just my theory), especially last year, the yamaha requird much more effort to get the required pace out of it, and Lorenzo did what he does to be certain ( and comfortable) that he had a package he knew was capable of maintaining the required pace for the majority of the race.

Stoner, like Hailwood and Rossi, seems to be able to arrive at that conclusion, and feel comfortable with the machine in a much shorter time.

Still, not even Stoner reels of laps with such consistancy ( by comparison to Lorenzo). It's not a bad thing (in reference to Stoner)..............it's just different.

Yes agreed. However, from what I've read, it seems that Stoner and Lorenzo had similar approaches from their early days. Stoner mercurial, instantly on the pace, Lorenzo more methodical. I wonder if Stoner's approach comes from his dirt bike days. With dirt bikes you get very little set up time, the rider just has to be on it instantly.

[Squidpuppet]

[there are at least two reasons I have to call you out on that one squid, 1) if he had followed Casey to get a tow then he would now have a size 8 boot mark on his leathers and I didn't hear anyone mention that; and 2) if it was that easy to follow Casey wouldn't everyone be doing it?

Quite true. It would have made even bigger headlines.

Size 8? How do they balance on such tiny sneakers?

[Squidpuppet]

I´ve been waving his flag a lot in here.
This is machinelike for you. San Marino race lap analysis - simple stunning to look at Lorenzos times. And he set a new lap record in the race.
http://resources.motogp.com/files/resul ... 1_3b19633c

Robot skill.

Take a look at Stoner's laps as he closed down and passed Lorenzo at Laguna Seca 2011.

I looked. Much to my surprise, more robotic than Jorge. 29 in a row with less than .5 deviation. Within those 29 were 22-in-a-row with only .3 deviation.

Freaks.

[Grahluk]

Nice to see the discussion has widened to include other riders than the two that are usually the focus around here.

On the comparable strengths between the top guys there's an interview with Pedrosa from 2010 I believe where he was asked to some up his 3 main competitors. He says Casey is an animal. Not just fast but aggressively fast. Says Lorenzo is relentless and like a metronome. Says Rossi is the master of racecraft.

That pretty much sums up the observations around here and that's from someone who's used to noticing these things from a very close vantage point. No one needs to get excitable that their pet rider doesn't rate. This is just relative to each other and to a degree that they recognize one's natural affinity for such aspects of riding. Of course Casey is as consistent as clockworks and well versed in race tactics. Likewise Lorenzo without a doubt rides ferociously and knows a thing or two about putting one over on the next rider. Lastly only the most bitter Rossi hater would venture that he is neither fast nor consistent. They all have these qualities in spades it's just relative strengths between them we are discussing.

I'm with the notion to not try and look too deeply into pre season testing for patterns. On race weekends practice is all about the rider's agenda to get the bike to serve them. Testing is the engineer's agenda and riders are there to serve the bike so on track activities are about parts as much as times.

[Grahluk]

Size 8? How do they balance on such tiny sneakers?

They're just used to making the best of small contact patches.

[Oscar]

motogpmd wrote: Take a look at Stoner's laps as he closed down and passed Lorenzo at Laguna Seca 2011.



I looked. Much to my surprise, more robotic than Jorge. 29 in a row with less than .5 deviation. Within those 29 were 22-in-a-row with only .3 deviation.

Stoner was being mentioned for pretty metronomic laps on the Duc a couple of years ago (and now we appreciate why, the groove was the ONLY place the damn things were manageable..) but with the Honda has been able to adopt a far more flexible strategy - getting the tyres warm for a few laps, then cranking it up, creating a gap and then just holding it at what he felt to be a comfortable margin. Lorenzo is now I feel the master of getting 99.99% of the available performance for the entire race, and beautiful to watch doing it.

[Cam D]

Seems like they are trying to make Lorenzo out to look weak. http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Feb/120207b.htm
The bravery of any of the world championship riders could never be questioned.

[Tourn46]

Seems like they are trying to make Lorenzo out to look weak. http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Feb/120207b.htm
The bravery of any of the world championship riders could never be questioned.

That to me looks like dog sh*t journalism at it's best... I would put good money on it that Lorenzo said that in a different context to what they have portrayed.

[RatsMC]

Superbike planet is becoming the very worst. The biased reporting and infantile name-calling are simply unreadable.

I've always felt Dean Adams' opinion pieces were poorly thought out rants b ut he has since turned the whole site into an opinion piece.

[Thornado]

If you don't listen to the SoupKasts you're really missing out. He does some great interviews.

[RatsMC]

I don't have a lot of time to listen to podcast so I typically just get MotoPod (formerly MotoGPod). Jim Race and crew get some great interviews.

[Oscar]

Superbike planet is becoming the very worst. The biased reporting and infantile name-calling are simply unreadable.

I've always felt Dean Adams' opinion pieces were poorly thought out rants b ut he has since turned the whole site into an opinion piece.

Well, knock me down with a feather and call me a carpet - I'm amongst the first to (frequently) call Adams a biased twat, and his recent 'analysis' of the results of last season concluding that Stoner won because of 'a red-hot hate' (or something similar) were not even worth commentary - but just for once he's actually managed to write a piece that includes information about Stoner in a fair light: http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Feb/120203smellthe.htm

Of course, and never being one to give up an old grudge, I found it ironic that Adams - who some time ago concluded that Stoner hates Rossi because he sees Rossi as the 'rich kid with all the advantages that he - Stoner - never had' suddenly has taken up the 'little battlers who made good' chant. I doubt it'll last - but there's a growing list of key people in the sport who probably have Adams on their 'don't bother to call back' list, and there are only so many stories about Schwantz a site can do in a year..

[Cam D]

Thanks for sharing Oscar. That was one of the best piece I read on S-Planet. Raised my opinion a little.

[Tourn46]

Seems like they are trying to make Lorenzo out to look weak. http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Feb/120207b.htm
The bravery of any of the world championship riders could never be questioned.

From MotoGP.com:

"It's unlikely that a crash will occur at 340 or 350kph in a straight line, but if it did, it would be almost impossible not to have serious consequences, so for me there’s no need to go 350kph in a straight line. I think 310, 320kph is more than enough speed to race at; Speed doesn’t make the race, what we wanted the last few years was more of a show for the fans, but I think there is a limit. We’ve reached 350kph. I think it’s too much,"

As predicted... he's basically saying that straight line speed doesn't make the show that we've been craving in MotoGP over the last few years and that 350kph is not necessary and increases risks.

It's slightly different to saying "I'm scared of the new speeds" in my opinion.

[Oscar]

Some food for thought, from gpOne: http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201202096035/MotoGP-Stoner-orgoglio-e-pregiudizio.html

Since my Italian is limited to ordering what turns out to be a small chocolate-iced asparagus stick in a yellow cup (when what I actually THOUGHT I was asking for was a short black), I rely on Google translations (which are always fun..):

Last week the track at Sepang, Casey Stoner has picked up where he ended last season, tops the list of the times. "The test went very well - said Gabarrini - The only problem was the chatter. The Ce 'expected in Sepang, where the track has always been a little' present, even with the 800. But increased significantly since we tried the new rear tire test, which has a different structure, and a bit 'all the Honda riders will have suffered. "

Despite this, they do not alarmism HRC at home. "In the first test we focused on the choices of materials - held - The next time we will work specifically to find a different setting that allows us to reduce the chattering."

In this regard, Stoner has a professional approach quite atypical. Able to find the service immediately, the Australian usually takes less laps than any other driver. "Working with Casey can be very simple or complicated, depending on your point of view. It is a highly sensitive pilot, he needs a few laps understand the positive and negative aspects of the bike. speaks very clearly, hardly in doubt. Other drivers might be hesitant to express their directions, but then their lap time never changes. Some problems are clearly seen on the telemetry, but we rely on other team's ability to interpret feedback from the pilot. If the team manages to exploit the sensitivity of Casey, you save valuable time. "

Gabarrini also confirmed that Stoner is one of the pilots not to use electronic controls. "Casey is very sensitive to the gas, which allows him to open soon out of corners. Our electronic technician Mr Lewis, who also worked with Yamaha Jorge Lorenzo and Andrea Dovizioso, has confirmed that Casey has a great sensitivity in dealing with the power of the engine and therefore uses less electronics than other drivers. By controlling the gas, the rear brake, and riding position, Casey makes up for what make electronic systems, which still have limitations compared to the human being, able to adapt more quickly to changing track conditions. "

I'm sure that the other teams hoping for HRC to be a bit competitive this year and join in the fun at the front will be relieved to hear that they intend to address the problems that were hobbling them at Sepang


Purely on a human interest note, I found this interesting, because it is very reminiscent of anecdotes about Hailwood's shy character and preference to have a few beers with the crew than attend the glittering balls, and my mind was drawn to Ago's recent comments::

The apparent intolerance of Stoner has often caused friction with the public of the championship, but not with his close collaborators. "The team appreciates the sincerity and still feels his affection. To him we are friends and a sort of second family, although perhaps teletrasporterebbe on track 5 minutes before getting in motion, and it would take turns just finished. In the box you see it clear, however. In 2007 we spent hours, because that's where he felt relaxed. "

In this regard, Gabarrini has revealed a particular anecdote. "Once Casey was asleep under the table where I was working with the electronics because, according to him, there was more quiet. He always liked to see what engineers do on the bike , but now spends less time with us and more with his wife in the motorhome. "

[motor]

From MotoGP.com:

"It's unlikely that a crash will occur at 340 or 350kph in a straight line, but if it did, it would be almost impossible not to have serious consequences, so for me there’s no need to go 350kph in a straight line. I think 310, 320kph is more than enough speed to race at; "

consequences of a crash at 310kmph might not be very different from that of a crash at 350 kmph the chances of a crash don't vary too much from 310 to 350kmph, either; so I'm not sure what problem Lorenzo is addressing...

[Grahluk]

From MotoGP.com:

"It's unlikely that a crash will occur at 340 or 350kph in a straight line, but if it did, it would be almost impossible not to have serious consequences, so for me there’s no need to go 350kph in a straight line. I think 310, 320kph is more than enough speed to race at; "

consequences of a crash at 310kmph might not be very different from that of a crash at 350 kmph the chances of a crash don't vary too much from 310 to 350kmph, either; so I'm not sure what problem Lorenzo is addressing...

I don't know. Since he's one of the ones that would have to be doing the crashing his concern carries more weight than those that would send him out there or spectate. Maybe there wouldn't be much of a difference between dead or deader but no one should dismiss his words or only give it passing consideration. Just saying.

[RatsMC]

At what point are the consequences significant enough that top speed should be considered a safety issue?

[Zaphod]

Agree with Grahluk 100 %

350 kph is F1 car speed...........they have hans devices, raised tub walls, and sit in a super strong CF tub.

The availible contact patch etc determines corner speed to a large extent.

The difference between "dead and deader" may be somewhat moot, though maybe touching bars down the straight, or getting tangled in some manner should be taken into consideration.

Maybe he feels that at 310, 320 kph the bike feels a bit more managable.....and at 350, it's just that bit more unstable.

Don't know........never done 320 to 350 myself, so, I would listen to what he has to say.

One thing to factor in when Lorenzo speaks, is he doesn't seem to feel the need to out psych or play head/ego games. I feel that Rossi picks up on that stuff (hence his comments in regards to this matter) and tries to use it to advantage.....as do most others.

Maybe it's bravado from the others........don't know or care really..............just that Lorenzo says what he thinks, and it has no bearing on him going out and being able to do the job.

[Oscar]

Lorenzo says what he thinks, and it has no bearing on him going out and being able to do the job.

Agree absolutely - Lorenzo's take on Butler's comments last year were a great case in point, and especially when some of the press gallery laughed at him and he responded: 'it's us out there, not you' - or words in similar vein. We lost a great personality and racer last year in the blink of an eye, and the very next race it nearly damn happened again. The armchair experts who jump up and down about 'pussies', taking their cue from the rather light-hearted statements of a few, don't have to put their body where their mouth is. Even Rossi, on a more serious note, did not find any necessity to take undue risks pushing the Ducati, so let's separate the banter from the facts and give the riders due recognition for the risks they DO take.

[Gustav O]

Agree absolutely - Lorenzo's take on Butler's comments last year were a great case in point, and especially when some of the press gallery laughed at him and he responded: 'it's us out there, not you' - or words in similar vein. We lost a great personality and racer last year in the blink of an eye, and the very next race it nearly damn happened again. The armchair experts who jump up and down about 'pussies', taking their cue from the rather light-hearted statements of a few, don't have to put their body where their mouth is. Even Rossi, on a more serious note, did not find any necessity to take undue risks pushing the Ducati, so let's separate the banter from the facts and give the riders due recognition for the risks they DO take.

Applause!

[TwoStroke Institute]

Another delve into the TSI files ....................

I don't know about professionals that do it everyday but 300kmph is a huge psycological barrier, over that your in the angel zone where any slip up will be your last. I had sweaty armpits and back after fanging this along the Autobahn between Stuttgart and Singen in Germany 2002. Did the almost advertised top speed of 326kmph. The only sphincter pucker moment was into a corner at 280-290kmph and it started to tighten.Took ages to go from 300 to 320, felt every extra 1kmph. Moral is 350 would make 320 feel slow even though it is only a few more kmph.

[Squidpuppet]

Some food for thought,

He always liked to see what engineers do on the bike , but now spends less time with us and more with his wife in the motorhome. "

I shouldn't, so I won't.