Minimum Weight Increases

[RatsMC]

Reading a little about the two recent weight increase for the MotoGP class, one of which was planned with the MSMA back in November, the other of which was a bit of a surprise to them and announced in December. In total, the increase is 7kg which is significant enough that the riders notice it (or Honda riders anyway).

It seems that, in an effort to support the CRTs, Dorna and IRTA wanted the minimum weight increased to 160 from the 150kg of the 800s. The GPC met and the MSMA agreed to an increase to 153kg. Dorna pushed for a vote on 160 and the MSMA voted it down. However, due to procedural issues, Dorna was able to implement the increase anyway. As a concession, they compromised at 157kg.

So, who cares right? Well, apparently, at least Honda has made a big deal out of this with Nakamoto saying that the change forced them to redesign components of the bike while Stoner and Pedrosa both with complaints.

At issue seems to be the late date at which the increase was made but I can't help think that this is Honda bristling at losing some control over the rules. The bikes were all designed with the 3kg increase in mind so what is really at issue is a 4kg increase and I just cannot, for the life of me figure how that could require any serious redesign work. I would expect that it would require some time to sort out the ballast but redesign sounds a lot more serious than anything I can imagine. The cost of any redesign work I just can't see being significant given HRCs budget.

Am I off base here?

I am generally supportive of weight increases as they lower the cost of entry and, in this case in particular, will help out the CRTs.

[Richo]

Do the CRT's have the same weight limit? I know they get more fuel than the factory bikes but not sure about weight. I assume weight is dry weight.

[tom]

I agree you would imagine that a bike designed to cope with a 18Kg weight difference from first lap to last would be able to take a 3kg overall increase in its stride

[Zaphod]

I can see that there would be some suspension re-design, as in valving etc.

Depending on where the weight was to be carried, it may also effect things such as swing arm pivot location, engine location, steering head geometry etc to best deal with the effect the extra weight would have on handling, and therefore the frame /engine location adjustments to keep the bike handling the way it was designed to.

You may be right , in-so-far as Honda may have designed their bike to come in at the 150kg mark, thinking all along that they would get their way, and DORNA could just go and jump....... an extra 3kg may have been possible with the design and adjustments that they had planned around that figure.

To more than double the expected(from Honda's point of view) weight gain would require some rethinking and designing.

The way they are designed and built, every nuance must be factored into the equation. All Honda riders (now..) are pretty much the same physical size (for arguments sake,... bear with me here....), when Hayden was with Honda, and it was pretty clear that the bike was being built around PedroPuig, he struggled to get the thing to work for him the way in did for DanBerto....for many reasons.........

I'd say the weight would matter............but, as you said, it seems (from the way things read.........open to interpretation of course.....) pretty clear Honda were playing a game of bluff with DORNA and lost out.

Maybe they should have designed it for 155kg.....then it wouldn't be so bad.

Any word from the Yamaha and Ducati boys ?...............

[yzr750]

Reading a little about the two recent weight increase for the MotoGP class, one of which was planned with the MSMA back in November, the other of which was a bit of a surprise to them and announced in December. In total, the increase is 7kg which is significant enough that the riders notice it (or Honda riders anyway).

It seems that, in an effort to support the CRTs, Dorna and IRTA wanted the minimum weight increased to 160 from the 150kg of the 800s. The GPC met and the MSMA agreed to an increase to 153kg. Dorna pushed for a vote on 160 and the MSMA voted it down. However, due to procedural issues, Dorna was able to implement the increase anyway. As a concession, they compromised at 157kg.

So, who cares right? Well, apparently, at least Honda has made a big deal out of this with Nakamoto saying that the change forced them to redesign components of the bike while Stoner and Pedrosa both with complaints.

At issue seems to be the late date at which the increase was made but I can't help think that this is Honda bristling at losing some control over the rules. The bikes were all designed with the 3kg increase in mind so what is really at issue is a 4kg increase and I just cannot, for the life of me figure how that could require any serious redesign work. I would expect that it would require some time to sort out the ballast but redesign sounds a lot more serious than anything I can imagine. The cost of any redesign work I just can't see being significant given HRCs budget.

Am I off base here?

I am generally supportive of weight increases as they lower the cost of entry and, in this case in particular, will help out the CRTs.

How would this weight increase lower the cost of entry? The weight limits are already at a level where they are close to a 1000cc road bike after lights etc have been removed. I cannot for the life of me see how adding weight can be a good thing for racing, as weight is the enemy of performance on so many levels.
Yet more dumbing down of the class.

[breganzane]

Agreed YZR. 500's used to be 115kg, now the premier class is 160kg. The scalpel has quietly devolved into an axe, just another step in the path of turning the premier class into Super-Superbikes.
As for whether those 4kg make a difference, at the level these guys operate I am sure it does.

[Zaphod]

It lowers the cost of entry, as some of the exotic ways of reducing weight, via materials and process, are no longer part of the equation.......to a large extent.

That means more teams/independent frame designers and manufactures can now (theoreticaly) produce a competitive machine.

.....instead of Yamaha and Ducati playing catch up to the might of the Honda economy and resources.

Dumbing down is one way of looking at it.


......the same way I view Moto2 as the Honda cup.


Like F1, something had to be done about Honda........... the way they have the economy and resources to throw at any motorsport they are involved in, to the point where they dominate..........

...and then start dictating the rules.


It's not their fault that they are so succesful......and their economy and resources do lead to amazing technological advances.

..But leave them to there own unfettled end....and the sport they are involved in becomes unfeasible for anyone else to compete in.

F1 did a similar thing to what MotoGP is now doing to Honda.....Honda threatened to pack up their bat and ball.......which the subsequently did.


Have you noticed that F1 didn't, and doesn't miss them ?

Rat's is right I feel.....from the article...........and it's just Honda having a hissy fit at not being able to dictate to the sport.


What if they'd thought of the 160 kg limit.


Hmmmmmmm...me suspects everything would be just fine and dandy, and from Honda's point of veiw, the other manufacturers should "apply themselves, instead of complaining"


my 2c

[RatsMC]

How would this weight increase lower the cost of entry? The weight limits are already at a level where they are close to a 1000cc road bike after lights etc have been removed. I cannot for the life of me see how adding weight can be a good thing for racing, as weight is the enemy of performance on so many levels.
Yet more dumbing down of the class.

157kg is significantly less than any road bike of 600cc or more. Increased weight is actually better for the racing because it reduces corner speeds and increases braking distances both of which allow more opportunities for passing.

[Zaphod]

.....and considering that a 500cc 2 banger was tipping the scales ( by the end) at minium of 135 kg (115kg's was pre 91...or was it 92 when they changed to 135 kg's ?...)......the four bangers still aren't doing too bad.

All the extra electronics, a sump full of oil and all the extra up-ie - down-ie, spinny round-ie roundie bit's in the donk they have by nature of design, vs a simple ol' smoke machine.



..Sooooo..........any word from Yamaha and Ducati about "the unfair-ness of it all" ??

[Thornado]

Agreed YZR. 500's used to be 115kg, now the premier class is 160kg. The scalpel has quietly devolved into an axe, just another step in the path of turning the premier class into Super-Superbikes.

There will be a press release at the end of the season renaming the top class Super Worldbikes.

[RatsMC]

As for whether those 4kg make a difference, at the level these guys operate I am sure it does.

The question isn't really whether it makes a difference - I am certain it does otherwise there's no benefit to doing it - the question is how much engineering in involved in adding 4kg?

[yzr750]

Increased weight is actually better for the racing because it reduces corner speeds and increases braking distances both of which allow more opportunities for passing.

Following that logic, we should increase the weight to 250kgs, only allow 6" drum brakes, and have a maximum tyre width of 2", then we should have every bike in the race cross the line simultaneously.

[RatsMC]

No, there is a reasonable line between managing cost and entertainment that allows the series to remain the premier class.

Using the same logic in reverse, we might as well remove weight limits altogether and let the budgets decide the races.

[motor]

Increased weight is actually better for the racing because it reduces corner speeds and increases braking distances both of which allow more opportunities for passing.

Following that logic, we should increase the weight to 250kgs, only allow 6" drum brakes, and have a maximum tyre width of 2", then we should have every bike in the race cross the line simultaneously.

Well, that's not following a logic. That's misusing a logic. Running is good for health, but not if you're running your knees off at 100kms per day.

[yzr750]

The idea that a minimum weight limit somehow hinders rich teams is a misnomer. These teams will still make the bikes as light as possible, and use the extra weight as ballast to enable them to shift the centre of mass. In this day and age everyone has access to all the lightweight parts, titanium is no longer expensive, neither is carbon fibre. I know loads of guys with carbon and titanium all over their roadbikes.
At 150 kgs there is no cost barrier to worry about, that is attainable on a modest budget, if it was 120kgs I would agree with you, but 150kgs is not in the realm of super exotic materials.

[yzr750]

Well, that's not following a logic. That's misusing a logic. Running is good for health, but not if you're running your knees off at 100kms per day.

Why, if reducing corner speeds and increasing braking distances allows more opportunities for passing, what's the problem?

[yzr750]

No, there is a reasonable line between managing cost and entertainment that allows the series to remain the premier class.

I agree with this entirely, but increasing the minimum weight when it is already at such a high level will do absolutely zero to reduce costs, in fact I would say it will actually increase costs.
Think of it this way, increasing the weight, coupled with a crippling fuel limit, will mean that the team with the greatest resources will be able to more effectively counter the increased fuel consumption and tyre wear via a bigger army of electronics technicians.

[motor]

Isn't the primary aim of weight increase to help CRTs and create a more level playing field? I feel that's a fair logic.

[yzr750]

I know I'm probably in the minority here, but what I am seeing is a slow but insidious move away from proper, pukka, racing motorcycles, and I don't like what I'm seeing.

[yzr750]

Isn't the primary aim of weight increase to help CRTs and create a more level playing field? I feel that's a fair logic.

Maybe it is, but I cannot see how it is helping them? Please explain how it is?

[motor]

http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/20120 ... CRT-s.html

[Zaphod]

Rules are rules.
So far, only one manufacturer is complaining about the minimum weight.

And if truth ever saw the light of day, just like any sort of political agenda, I think the weight increase has bugger all to do with it.

The power to "make the rules" is slipping from Honda's grasp...........

Once upon a time, the rules were " no more than 500cc's, no more than 6 gears and a minimum weight of 115kg ( then increased to 135).

Which manufacturer was it that has always disliked two strokes, figured out that a 500cc 4 stroke gets blown to the weeds by the 2 stroke equivelent, and so had the rules changed (preaching all sorts of promises about how much better life will be on the 4 stroke band-wagon) so as to allow a 990cc 4 stroke into the premier class ? This in no way to be interperated as me wanting everything to return to 2 strokes (though I can't say I'd be unhappy ), more that rule changes seem just fine with Honda...........as long as they decide what they are.


Until Yamaha and co start voicing an opinion/complaint on the matter, I will laugh at Honda as they suffer in their undies.

[RatsMC]

I agree with this entirely, but increasing the minimum weight when it is already at such a high level will do absolutely zero to reduce costs, in fact I would say it will actually increase costs.
Think of it this way, increasing the weight, coupled with a crippling fuel limit, will mean that the team with the greatest resources will be able to more effectively counter the increased fuel consumption and tyre wear via a bigger army of electronics technicians.

You are missing the point of the increase. The CRTs expressed concern about the weight minimum so clearly there is a budget concern for them. Additionally, the CRTs have 24L of fuel so there is no crippling fuel issue. The costs might increase in the short term for the factories but looking out longer, they have less reason to spend time reducing every component to its bare necessary weight.

I think the costs of weight reduction are being seriously under estimated here. In AMA racing the limits are much higher and yet, very few teams actually come in at the minimum and some of these teams have substantial budgets. It should also be pointed out that Ti is against the rules for use in all really heavy parts in MotoGP.

[tom]

http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201202066016/Vitto-the-extra-weight-is-for-the-CRT-s.html

Very insightful, thanks. I change my mind

[Nachlauf]

How would this weight increase lower the cost of entry? The weight limits are already at a level where they are close to a 1000cc road bike after lights etc have been removed. I cannot for the life of me see how adding weight can be a good thing for racing, as weight is the enemy of performance on so many levels.
Yet more dumbing down of the class.

157kg is significantly less than any road bike of 600cc or more. Increased weight is actually better for the racing because it reduces corner speeds and increases braking distances both of which allow more opportunities for passing.

Well well, according to Ducati the Panigale has a dry weight of only 164kg. Take out the non-racing equipment such as headlights, upright and so on and you're almost at MotoGP weight...