CRT - The new prototypes

[Cam D]

CEII -

After the first day we obviously realized we had some major issues with some chatter that we have been working hard. The electronics, since Jerez have been developed and have come a long way and I’m really happy with it. The Bosch guys have been working hard, when I ask for something they make it happen.

Two Wheel Blog - http://www.twowheelsblog.com/post/9001/ ... r#continua

I thought this was important. Seems like all the teams, except Ducati, are having some issues with the new tyres..

"With the 2011 tyres, our bike worked very well, but with the 2012 tyres we have chassis vibrations", said Alessandro Giussani

- Motomatters
&

But now, I have the worst chatter I have ever had in my life. I have zero corner speed. Without that problem, I could go 1.5 seconds faster and ride in the 2.03's very easily. We tried everything to fix it, softer and harder settings, different links and geometries, more than I ever tried with the Yamaha, but nothing made a difference. My feeling is that we need another modification on the chassis. The swingarm is great, the whole rear end of the bike is good, but the front part feels a bit too stiff!"

[Zaphod]

I liked this bit.........

The new adventure as CRT, it just feels good to know that you can develop something and work towards the future instead of just being one of the guys getting the part: “ here you go, you can have this …. Now we are actually building something and making things happen. We are developing something together and it feels good to develop a bike my way. I’m really happy. “

If it really does work that way, and continues to.........that's a good thing.

[yzr750]

So it seems, judging by the weight increase thread, that the MO for making crts competitive is not to make them better buy increasing fuel limits etc, its to dumb down the proper gp bikes.
Looking at PI and Assen last year, with similar track conditions for both motogp and wsb, the average speed of the wsb winner would have been good enough for a podium in motogp in both races.
I know that it is not an entirely valid comparison, but coupled with the fact that the fastest race laps in motogp and wsb at both circuits for the last 3 years have been within the 2 second mark, it does give a ballpark figure for what we should expect of crt performance wise.
I see a convergence of performance between gp and wsb, and once they have dumbed gp down enough to make crt winners there will be no point in having the two separate series, which would suit the economic reality. All those sponsorship dollars from both series combined in to one, full grids, easier to ride bikes so closer racing, it's a win, win situation for some.
Maybe it will end up like the old formula 1 world championship, production engines, limited to stock throttle bodies, spec ecu, and free rein on the chassis?

[RatsMC]

CRTs winning races has never been in the plan nor will it ever happen.

The economic reality is that WSBK is starting to feel the pinch that MotoGP has been dealing with for some time. WSBK is no longer cheap enough that the sponsorship exposure warrants the investment it takes to win.

Who was the title sponsor of the WSBK champion? I honestly can't remember and you can be certain I pay closer attention than the casual fan that sponsors are looking for. WSBK rules will be changing over the next few years and the lap times will drop along the way. In the mean time, MotoGP has an increase in capacity. The CRT bike will absolutely be faster than WSBK but they need a season to sort out the details.

WSBK has been on a path toward more and more prototype bikes and moving into MotoGP's domain. They've recently discovered that their enthusiasm has led them down a path with no future. They simply cannot compete with MotoGP for audience and without that audience, there aren't the budgets to sustain the near-prototype bikes they've been running. You'll start to see cost-cutting in WSBK soon enough.

You can shoot down the CRT plan right now before the bikes have had a single race and then watch Suzuki drop out next year then who knows who else after that leaving us with a grid of somewhere around 12 riders, or you can have a little damn patience, let the bikes get up to speed and then start raising the performance bar while we actually have enough bikes on the grid that there is actually a race worth watching.

[oldboyonrgv]

Well put Rats, the reason I called them the new prototype was for exacty the reason CE2 says, despite what anyone says I believe that the CRT's are more in keeping with true prototypes than the factory machines and the heirachy of who gets what parts (and thus the biasing of the results, Aprillia in 125 and 250) is stopped at source, the sport becomes more of a colaboration between rider and engineer (and team) and less about how much budget you have to buy the right bits from the manufacturer (Hondas clutch anyone)

[RatsMC]

That is a really great point. Herve Poncheral talked about the fact that his crew wasn't able to do anything but turn some dials and wait for HQ to send them some new parts. What Edwards was talking about was guys getting their hands dirty, actually using the stuff they'd learned and making a bike go fast. That, to me, is racing. F1 can have all that clinical, scientific crap.

[Tourn46]

That is a really great point. Herve Poncheral talked about the fact that his crew wasn't able to do anything but turn some dials and wait for HQ to send them some new parts. What Edwards was talking about was guys getting their hands dirty, actually using the stuff they'd learned and making a bike go fast. That, to me, is racing. F1 can have all that clinical, scientific crap.

I haven't thought about it in that context and it's a damn good point.

[Gustav O]

From Ian Wheelers Twitter feed. From the on going tests at Valencia. Interesting, especially as conditions are less than ideal.

Redding's time of 1'35.7 at Valencia is less than a second off Rendy de Puniet's time on the CRT Aprilia (1'34.9).

[Squidpuppet]

From Ian Wheelers Twitter feed. From the on going tests at Valencia. Interesting, especially as conditions are less than ideal.

Redding's time of 1'35.7 at Valencia is less than a second off Rendy de Puniet's time on the CRT Aprilia (1'34.9).

That is really interesting. On one hand it's understandable because the Moto2 chassis have evolved quite a bit and have found their legs, while the CRTs have only just begun. But on the other hand, it's still just a "moderately" tuned 600 vs a ballistically tuned 1,000.

[boson]

From Ian Wheelers Twitter feed. From the on going tests at Valencia. Interesting, especially as conditions are less than ideal.

Redding's time of 1'35.7 at Valencia is less than a second off Rendy de Puniet's time on the CRT Aprilia (1'34.9).

That is really interesting. On one hand it's understandable because the Moto2 chassis have evolved quite a bit and have found their legs, while the CRTs have only just begun. But on the other hand, it's still just a "moderately" tuned 600 vs a ballistically tuned 1,000.

True, but it could be that they are still struggling with the tyres with the CRT. I remember reading about hoffman going 2s slower on a wsbk aprillia on motogp bridgestones vs wsbk pirellis, can't remember the source right now though.

[phoenix1]

WSBK has been on a path toward more and more prototype bikes and moving into MotoGP's domain. They've recently discovered that their enthusiasm has led them down a path with no future.

Definitely think WSBK has gone too far towards prototypes, but the path with no future is not the performance/cost of racing parts, but the abandonment of homologation specials or turnkey race machines. The parts are not cheap or accessible, but the costs are even more prohibitive if scores of private teams are building bikes to a dozen different national rulebooks. Back in the day, teams bought an RC. Now they have to turn a stock nail into something more sophisticated than an RC, in some instances. At the very least, the manufacturers should be supplying global crate racing engines/transmissions.

The manufacturing of the bikes is really the only thing that separates prototypes from production machines. Production machines should come off of a serial production line, and be available for purchase. Prototypes are supposed to be bespoke one-offs. Oddly enough, SBK teams are required to build their own bespoke racing machines. IRTA teams simply take delivery of a pre-built satellite race machine. Ass-backwards, imo. CRT remedies the problem, as Edwards points out, but besides technical nuances and performance, the CRT game is not very different from SBK, ATM.

My hope is that SBK goes 800cc/1000cc, but I was thinking the other day about engine technologies that the manufacturers might want to put on bikes. I realized that direct-injection could be the natural progression. If direct injection is the next leap forward for motorcycle production engines, SBK will need to remain at 1000cc to keep the hp ratings respectable as the rev ceiling drops. If SBK remains 1000cc, SS could graduate to 750cc triples (Moto2 has exclusive use of existing 600cc 4-pots). If production DI engines are still capable of reaching 12,000rpm (cost feasibility?), SBK hp would still be between 180-190hp. But the real hidden gem, imo, is that DI might require the SBK Commission to limit compression. Right now, static compression is free, and free static compression is one of the technologies the manufacturers refuse to sell. DI would force them to adopt a spec compression ratio, AFAIK, and the manufacturers would be more at ease to sell reciprocating internals.

[oldboyonrgv]

[quote="phoenix1]
The manufacturing of the bikes is really the only thing that separates prototypes from production machines. Production machines should come off of a serial production line, and be available for purchase. Prototypes are supposed to be bespoke one-offs. Oddly enough, SBK teams are required to build their own bespoke racing machines. IRTA teams simply take delivery of a pre-built satellite race machine. Ass-backwards, imo. CRT remedies the problem, as Edwards points out, but besides technical nuances and performance, the CRT game is not very different from SBK, ATM[/quote]

Absolutely agree but CRT is Much more open than WSBK in terms of the engines and electronics....also you can buy an R1 engine and totally re-design the internals (WCM stylee) which you cannot do at WSBK therefore that whole industry of engine tuners which have been excluded since to 4t era began now have an opportunity

[JanBros]

From Ian Wheelers Twitter feed. From the on going tests at Valencia. Interesting, especially as conditions are less than ideal.

Redding's time of 1'35.7 at Valencia is less than a second off Rendy de Puniet's time on the CRT Aprilia (1'34.9).

That is really interesting. On one hand it's understandable because the Moto2 chassis have evolved quite a bit and have found their legs, while the CRTs have only just begun. But on the other hand, it's still just a "moderately" tuned 600 vs a ballistically tuned 1,000.

don't forget : ther Moto2 guys don't run there race engines. For these tests the put in what they want. So Scott may be riding a full spec SS600

[Squidpuppet]

don't forget : ther Moto2 guys don't run there race engines. For these tests the put in what they want. So Scott may be riding a full spec SS600

I didnt know that. Thank you. I now understand that they only use the official engines at the official tests.

How about this for an interesting number, though.

Bradley Smith's 1'36.5 set with an engine ripped straight from a Honda CBR600RR is therefore all the more impressive

My goodness.

[boson]

don't forget : ther Moto2 guys don't run there race engines. For these tests the put in what they want. So Scott may be riding a full spec SS600

I didnt know that. Thank you. I now understand that they only use the official engines at the official tests.

How about this for an interesting number, though.

Bradley Smith's 1'36.5 set with an engine ripped straight from a Honda CBR600RR is therefore all the more impressive

My goodness.

Redding's time is representative of where he is at, as Marc VDS bought some moto2 spec engines off the supplier to use during "unofficial" testing. As @ianwheeler explained it, whats the point in testing a different spec bike to what you will race?
Hard to tell how much the general pace has changed for the bikes though as, although Redding was under lap record pace on the right spec bike, there was no Marquez and there might be some other quick guys handicapped by their under-tuned engine cos the team don't want to spend too much of the budget on engine tuning!

[phoenix1]

Absolutely agree but CRT is Much more open than WSBK in terms of the engines and electronics....also you can buy an R1 engine and totally re-design the internals (WCM stylee) which you cannot do at WSBK therefore that whole industry of engine tuners which have been excluded since to 4t era began now have an opportunity

CRT is theoretically more free than WSBK, but it probably isn't more technologically advanced in practice. Private companies will struggle to build better parts than the WSBK parts available (for lease) from the manufacturers. Modifying bore-stroke ratio will prove to be cost ineffective (BMW is already 80mm), and while the private teams have access to machinery that can modify the bottom end, I doubt they can prototype a new top end or modify the existing kit.

For all intents and purposes, the CRT teams will use WSBK-spec engines, if WSBK engines are available for lease. It won't get better than that unless a manufacturer builds a bespoke MotoGP engine for sale or lease. I doubt that will happen until the rules have been stabilized.

[Grahluk]

For all intents and purposes, the CRT teams will use WSBK-spec engines, if WSBK engines are available for lease. It won't get better than that unless a manufacturer builds a bespoke MotoGP engine for sale or lease. I doubt that will happen until the rules have been stabilized.

That is a tasty proposition to imagine. If CRT's start taking up the bulk of the grid with the exception of the 6 or so factory thoroughbreds some outside engineering firms might find it prestigious and attractive again to produce a GP mill. Oral, Rotax, Ilmor, and others may find the new GP environment more suitable to them than in the past and might be able to produce something with more potential than a production derived lump. That provided the mentioned stability of rules allowing the CRT's to be around long enough to see an advantage in participating. Problem with outside manufacturers though might be the claiming and price of claiming. If independent engine designs were to come on track it might be too attractive for the MSMA members to claim engines here and there just to see if some fresh heads unrestrained by corporate tethers can come up with any novel approaches. Would be cool if the CRT regulations loosened up to allow a greater variety of designs. I'd love to see something like a modern DI 2-stroke triple join the Frankenbikes on the grid.

[Hansd]

De Puniet did a 1.40,9 in Jerez on his Aprillia CRT today, which is only 1,2 sec of the lap record set by Dani Pedrosa in 2010. Now who would have predicted that? This would have easily put him between the satelite bikes last year!!

[phoenix1]

De Puniet did a 1.40,9 in Jerez on his Aprillia CRT today, which is only 1,2 sec of the lap record set by Dani Pedrosa in 2010. Now who would have predicted that? This would have easily put him between the satelite bikes last year!!

DePuniet's time is definitely encouraging, but Pedrosa went 1:38.864 in Saturday practice during the 2011 Spanish GP. DePuniet's time would eek him onto the back of an 800cc grid. He might be just fast enough to avoid getting lapped by an 800cc prototype.

[Hansd]

De Puniet did a 1.40,9 in Jerez on his Aprillia CRT today, which is only 1,2 sec of the lap record set by Dani Pedrosa in 2010. Now who would have predicted that? This would have easily put him between the satellite bikes last year!!

DePuniet's time is definitely encouraging, but Pedrosa went 1:38.864 in Saturday practice during the 2011 Spanish GP. DePuniet's time would eek him onto the back of an 800cc grid. He might be just fast enough to avoid getting lapped by an 800cc prototype.

Actually the fastest ever lap time around Jerez is from Jorge Lorenzo - 1m 38.189s (2008), that makes him 2,8 sec slower. But still who expected the CRT's to be this fast right from day 1?
This would have put De Puniet in 17th place on the grid last year, 0,3 behind the satellite Ducati of Karel Abraham and 0,2 before the satellite Honda of Toni Elias.

[phoenix1]

Actually the fastest ever lap time around Jerez is from Jorge Lorenzo - 1m 38.189s (2008), that makes him 2,8 sec slower. But still who expected the CRT's to be this fast right from day 1?
This would have put De Puniet in 17th place on the grid last year, 0,3 behind the satellite Ducati of Karel Abraham and 0,2 before the satellite Honda of Toni Elias.

Why would you go back to a qualifying session from 2008? During qualifying, bikes are not in race trim. Furthermore, Jorge set that time on Michelin qualifying tires, during a season when MotoGP had lower minimum weight, no engine life rules, and no fuel system homologation procedures.

For direct comparison, you're not going to get a more relevant time than last year's final dry practice session at Jerez. Unfortunately, that time was set on an 800cc machine shod with 2011 spec Bridgestones, but it is the most relevant number we've got.

[Nachlauf]

We'll see how it pans out over the season. But if Aspar are right and they are as close as 0.2s behind Barbera now this will become very interesting very soon. Imagine Randy beating Vale regularly. People will go ballistic.

[RatsMC]

Jerez Test times from Day 3:

Barbera - 1:40.0
DePuniet - 1:40.3
Espargaro - 1:41.1
Pasini - 1:41.3
Pertrucci - 1:41.6
Ellison - 1:42.5

It sounds like Barbera may not have been on his normal bike and it sounds like he only got one day of testing in.

[Squidpuppet]

Jerez Test times from Day 3:

Barbera - 1:40.0
DePuniet - 1:40.3
Espargaro - 1:41.1
Pasini - 1:41.3
Pertrucci - 1:41.6
Ellison - 1:42.5

It sounds like Barbera may not have been on his normal bike and it sounds like he only got one day of testing in.

And no factory bikes for a tow.

[Hansd]

1.40.3 that Aprillia CRT is a super bike