After 2011, who will be the GOATEE ?

[L34]

Tom, the tweet came
"@HRC_MotoGP"
"Official Channel of the Repsol Honda MotoGP Team"

I dont think a member of Casey's crew would call him/herself "Official"............

[tom]

They are in the official Repsol HRC team. I'm not hanging my hat on this by any means and it's relatively insignificant but I thought the scenario fit.

[Squidpuppet]

I think that's a bit far fetched Tom.

I didnt mean it was a deliberate hijacking of the tweet acount or anything like that, more that it just didnt make sense for HRC to tweet those stats, while on the other hand it is something a few crew members that came across with casey would tweet (perhaps to have a poke at the Rossi JB crew). I''m guessing the banter over twitter between HRC and Yamaha at the last test was not originating from management or the PR department but rather from the two teams at the track. When you remember that a lot of Caseys team came across with him from Ducati the tweet makes a lot more sense. It doesnt make sence as a HRC tweet as it were... Not saying it was an appropiate thing to do just saying it makes more sense in this light.

It does seem more logical that the boys in the garage, the actual hands on competitors, would be tossing jabs before corporate.

[Tourn46]

I think that's a bit far fetched Tom.

I didnt mean it was a deliberate hijacking of the tweet acount or anything like that, more that it just didnt make sense for HRC to tweet those stats, while on the other hand it is something a few crew members that came across with casey would tweet (perhaps to have a poke at the Rossi JB crew). I''m guessing the banter over twitter between HRC and Yamaha at the last test was not originating from management or the PR department but rather from the two teams at the track. When you remember that a lot of Caseys team came across with him from Ducati the tweet makes a lot more sense. It doesnt make sence as a HRC tweet as it were... Not saying it was an appropiate thing to do just saying it makes more sense in this light.

It does seem more logical that the boys in the garage, the actual hands on competitors, would be tossing jabs before corporate.

It does, but I would be surprised if those boys had access to it.

[RatsMC]

It was definitely someone in the garage when they were running laps and certainly close to the team. It does seem unlikely that it was someone on Stoner's crew but then again, it also seems unlikely that HRC would have anyone publishing stuff without going through their PR machine.

[Oscar]

Good heavens, aren't we getting all a bit deep and meaningful here over sod-all? I mean, come on, Japanese motorcycle manufacturer posts something on the internet that portrays - using certain facts - an Australian rider as more successful than an Italian rider - and the Italian motojourno community takes umbrage? Heck, of course - it's the right of the Italian motojourno community to post such stuff (e.g. gpOne, that already HAS so done) to point people at facts that place their lad in an unflattering light. But only the Italian motojournalist community, capito? I can call my baby 'Buttface' but if YOU suggest he's ugly, watch out.

I do seem to remember said Italian rider fairly publicly mocking his own employer with a ball-and-chain episode trackside - said employer being said Japanese motorcycle manufacturer. As I also remember, it was from said Italian rider's team that the famous equation that 'the bike is 20%' (i.e. the converse of the '80% rider' comment) came. HRC may just have a long memory - and yet, by including Stoner's Ducati wins with his HRC wins, they are in effect actually supporting the idea that the rider is 80% - and handing Rossi a free pass.

The actual numbers put up were accurate. They weren't the worst comparison that could have been made: they COULD have just reproduced the numbers for the '11 season if they'd really wanted to put the boot in.

Storm in an espresso thimble.

[Zaphod]

Agree with your comments re The Italian media...it's to be expected from them..... surprises me that any Japanese manufacturer would play that game though.



Every rider has good and bad years, and as they get older, the new kids do come out, learn what they can from the established, blend it with their own talent............and go quicker.



.....I remember a time when Eddie Lawson was "probably past his best", and his stat's vs Rainey, Schwantz and Doohan indicated as much.

The he got on the Cagiva !!

He still had it in mind to retire after his contract was up at Cagiva , but boy did he have a bit of a second wind during that time !

Rossi's on the way out, sure........... but until he pull's the helmet off for the last time, I'm sure he has a few good races left in him........and like the Catalyn race with Stoner......when they're close, it's bloody good to watch !


.....and I'd rather watch that, than listen to flag waving and name calling.


Granted....Rossi is a typical Italian when it comes to showing off and snide barbs at his oponents....however subtle, or "open to interpretaion".......but, the undeniable fact is, he has/had the talent to back it up.


..........unlike some, eh Mr Biaggi. (even worse...Little John !)


Hope it's a close season, and CS, VR and JL have some ripper stoushes !

[Nachlauf]

It was definitely someone in the garage when they were running laps and certainly close to the team.

I have no idea who does the twittering for the teams. But I seriously doubt it's someone from the garage.

Last year I followed Ben Spies as good as I could. When he was benched during the Malaysia event the Yamaha twitter folks suddenly came up with live "ask your questions to Ben" sessions. As far as I know he always was in some press booth when doing this kind of thing with Yamaha's twitter crew. Now I have no idea what really went on there. But it seems extremely likely to me, that the twitter thing was done by some PR dude.

Actually I also believe that quite a lot twitter, facebook and blog activity on the rider's accounts are done by the team's PR dudes. I just can't imagine persons like Spies, Lorenzo or Stoner reposting team-PR or photos during a test session.

[Gustav O]

Isn´t it the teams press officer or what ever they are called that is doing the twittering?

This is how they descride themselves an twitter. So it is someone in the team but of course not the mechanics so what is left are the press people.
Official Channel of the Repsol Honda MotoGP Team

Official Twitter for Yamaha Factory Racing

[Grahluk]

From what I've gleaned everyone in the big factory racing organizations have pretty clear lanes of activity. You're not going to get the tyre fitter posting things as official corporate. Even when they do participate whether its a rider or crew member it's under the oversight of someone tasked with corporate PR. Alex Briggs does his twittering from his own point of view but had to get the go ahead from the bosses to do so and was given clear directives on what he can and can't comment on or about. No doubt riders either. Remember when Hayden leaked pics of the 2009 Ducati ahead of official release. He was quite contrite when he was called to the mat about that one. No doubt this HRC gaffe was from an official PR underling given the official twitter account to do their business and acted more in individual passion in a manner unseemly for a Japanese corporation. Doubt heads rolled. Wasn't that big a deal but I'm sure that individual who hit the tweet button got their leash yanked in a memorable fashion.

[tom]

Good heavens, aren't we getting all a bit deep and meaningful here over sod-all? I mean, come on, Japanese motorcycle manufacturer posts something on the internet that portrays - using certain facts - an Australian rider as more successful than an Italian rider - and the Italian motojourno community takes umbrage? Heck, of course - it's the right of the Italian motojourno community to post such stuff (e.g. gpOne, that already HAS so done) to point people at facts that place their lad in an unflattering light. But only the Italian motojournalist community, capito? I can call my baby 'Buttface' but if YOU suggest he's ugly, watch out.

I do seem to remember said Italian rider fairly publicly mocking his own employer with a ball-and-chain episode trackside - said employer being said Japanese motorcycle manufacturer. As I also remember, it was from said Italian rider's team that the famous equation that 'the bike is 20%' (i.e. the converse of the '80% rider' comment) came. HRC may just have a long memory - and yet, by including Stoner's Ducati wins with his HRC wins, they are in effect actually supporting the idea that the rider is 80% - and handing Rossi a free pass.

The actual numbers put up were accurate. They weren't the worst comparison that could have been made: they COULD have just reproduced the numbers for the '11 season if they'd really wanted to put the boot in.

Storm in an espresso thimble.

Your right Oscar its a storm in a teacup but at the moment that's all we have to talk about

[Grahluk]

Agree with your comments re The Italian media...it's to be expected from them..... surprises me that any Japanese manufacturer would play that game though.



Every rider has good and bad years, and as they get older, the new kids do come out, learn what they can from the established, blend it with their own talent............and go quicker.



.....I remember a time when Eddie Lawson was "probably past his best", and his stat's vs Rainey, Schwantz and Doohan indicated as much.

The he got on the Cagiva !!

He still had it in mind to retire after his contract was up at Cagiva , but boy did he have a bit of a second wind during that time !

Rossi's on the way out, sure........... but until he pull's the helmet off for the last time, I'm sure he has a few good races left in him........and like the Catalyn race with Stoner......when they're close, it's bloody good to watch !


.....and I'd rather watch that, than listen to flag waving and name calling.


Granted....Rossi is a typical Italian when it comes to showing off and snide barbs at his oponents....however subtle, or "open to interpretaion".......but, the undeniable fact is, he has/had the talent to back it up.


..........unlike some, eh Mr Biaggi. (even worse...Little John !)


Hope it's a close season, and CS, VR and JL have some ripper stoushes !

100% with you on all points. You can add teams and factories to riders as having better and worse years. The better of all those have good years more often than not. When you combine all three the competition has to sweat all the more. Thinking Rossi/JB/Lorenzo/Furusawa/Yamaha at one point and now Stoner/Gabbarini/Pedrosa?/Nakamoto/Honda last year and for the near future.

I'm glad someone else mentioned Lawson. Certainly one of the greatest ever. Absolutely dominated for six years winning 4 titles in that period on two different brands. Slipped a bit his last year on a Japanese bike against the competition then went to a spunky Italian brand and ended up two seasons effectively as their development rider on race weekends. A little spooky the shades Lawson and Rossi's careers share so far. Hope for Rossi and more so for Ducati that they have a more uplifting turn than Lawson/Cagiva.

I truly don't care who wins among the top guys out there now. I just want some good hard fights and races. Races where the winner knows he won against a man, not just against a stopwatch; where his adversary is heard in his hears, and seen out the corner of his eyes and not simply as some letters and numbers on a pit board. I admire all these racers for what they do and how well they do it. I can appreciate the more admirable aspects of their personalities that can be known by the public and pretty much ignore the parts I don't care for or don't understand; knowing that they are not idols on a pedestal but as complicated and contradictory as all people are.

You can keep your GOATS, your pet heroes, and strange personal validations through the achievements and statistics of others. I like the race. I like the struggle of it all; every one of them on track and those that give them the means to be there.

[Zaphod]

Wish I had your words. Very well said, from my point of view on things.

Maybe the things you highlighted are why I miss the 500 days. A time before the electronic media........a time when riders could dislike each other very much (Schwantz Rainey, Lawson Gardner, ......Gardner and the rest of the Aussies ) and we didn't have to read or hear about all the little snide remarks and head games..........you knew it, they went out and raced, and gave credit to each other.

Despite whatever they felt.

Decorum.

Lawson at the end of his Japanese career was still someone the others did not take lightly..........and when he went to Cagiva, the concensus among the riders was that he'd probably make it work, and may be someone to still watch out for. No need to put him down, tell the world he's past it.....or any other form of head games.

Respect, regardless of personal feelings or agendas.



I don't know if I've put this on here before, or on another forum. It's one of my favorite pics, because you can imagine they are probably just shooting the breeze.

Reality is, there's probably more venom involved in the conversation.........

Still......no umbrella girls, press, PR or the like. it could almost be the 50's or 60's.

[motogpmd]

You can keep your GOATS, your pet heroes, and strange personal validations through the achievements and statistics of others. I like the race. I like the struggle of it all; every one of them on track and those that give them the means to be there.

Absolutely agree with you. I vigorously defend certain riders, but only because I can't stand this blind adoration of other riders, mostly a certain Mr. Rossi. Like you said, it seems to be some kind of bizarre self validation though the success of their hero. And it doesn't matter what facts and statistics are presented, anything that puts their hero in a bad light is explained away. And in fairness it isn't just Rossi fans.

I have watched 500s/MotoGP for thirty years and in that time there has been some wonderful and exciting riders. But the sport's the thing, riders come and go. I for one am not into this cult of personality that seems such a big deal in MotoGP.They are just motorcycle riders, they are not saving the world or creating world peace.

[motor]

It's all different versions of the same mental disturbance mate. Fans furiously defending their riders and others getting irritated at such fan antics. There's fundamentally not much of a difference between someone who honks in traffic and someone who gets irritated at said honk...

[yzr750]

The thing I noticed about that pic was the fact that they are actually holding their own motorcycles, nowadays,as soon as the wheels stop, there is a small army of mechanics ready to grab the bike.

[Tourn46]

Absolutely agree with you. I vigorously defend certain riders, but only because I can't stand this blind adoration of other riders, mostly a certain Mr. Rossi. Like you said, it seems to be some kind of bizarre self validation though the success of their hero. And it doesn't matter what facts and statistics are presented, anything that puts their hero in a bad light is explained away. And in fairness it isn't just Rossi fans.

It's no different to any sport. You get fans, you get rivalries, you get bias, you do get 'blind' folk who worship a rider... but I personally see nothing wrong with a bit of passion to get behind a rider, I see nothing wrong with a bit of banter and a bit of fun between fans.

I don't agree with many opinions on here and it's evident that many seem to disagree with mine, but that's all they are, opinions. Just man up and accept people have different views... I do find it intriguing/interesting what others think so I always take the time to read and consider.

In MotoGP however there is also another split and this is the split that I don't like, (and I hope people understand my use of this word here) there is a 'snobbery' in that people believe they know more than everyone else, be it technically/mechanically, age, experience, ridden themselves...
I have been told bluntly via PM on this website before that my age, my (lack of) technical knowledge and the fact I am a Rossi fan renders my opinion on other riders void...

I can take as much flack as people want to throw at me for being a Rossi fan, I really don't have a care in the world because my opinion of Rossi and his talent is what it is... it's when people say that you can't give your view or dismiss it without even reading it because you have 46/26/99/27/whatever at the end of your name that annoys me - although that's not usually a big problem here fortunately.

The other thing that bugs me is when you see the famous words "I am a Rossi/Stoner/Rider X fan too... but...", I always know that's a good time to stop reading.
All sets of fans have people amongst them that are as guilty as one another, if people could realise and accept that, then all debate around MotoGP would improve.

[Squidpuppet]

I do find it intriguing/interesting what others think so I always take the time to read and consider.

it's when people say that you can't give your view or dismiss it without even reading it because you have 46/26/99/27/whatever at the end of your name that annoys me

The other thing that bugs me is when you see the famous words "I am a Rossi/Stoner/Rider X fan too... but...", I always know that's a good time to stop reading.

[motogpmd]

It's no different to any sport. You get fans, you get rivalries, you get bias, you do get 'blind' folk who worship a rider... but I personally see nothing wrong with a bit of passion to get behind a rider, I see nothing wrong with a bit of banter and a bit of fun between fans....

That's a good explanation of your views. Personally I don't want to be known as a fan of a particular rider. My views about different riders have changed over the years, and to me that's a sensible approach, because it takes time and different conditions to assess a rider. My esteem of Rossi, I am sorry to say, has diminished over the past few years ( but I hasten to add that he is still unquestionably a great rider, one of the best), while my esteem of Stoner and Lorenzo has risen. Looking back to what I thought at the start of their MotoGP careers, I never expected Stoner and Lorenzo to do so well.

But as far as your opinions go, they have as much value as anyone else if you can support them with logic and fact. The experts often don't agree anyway. Former world champions have no better success at predicting the performance of riders than anyone else as far as I can see. We all have our biases. But if opinions are just blind loyalty to a particular rider regardless of facts and stats then I don't see those opinions as having value.

[Nachlauf]

but I personally see nothing wrong with a bit of passion to get behind a rider

Wait, 2 days ago you called the tweet backing Stoner with a bit of passion a silly thing to do. Now you're saying the opposite because a few people posted in a de-escalating fashion? Do you actually have an opinion or are you just a turncoat?

Obviously people have different opinions about riders and riding. I doubt there is anyone posting on the internets who actually has any experience in riding current MotoGP machinery at the sharp end. So everything you read about the rider performances on the internets is just opinion of outsiders. And as an outsider you can decide to simply listen to everything you hear or dispute everything you don't like. It's interesting how outsiders change their approach depending on the topic....

[motogpmd]

It's interesting that Rossi is publicly acknowledging that Stoner and Lorenzo are riding better than him now. I hope his fans take notice, it's what some of us have been saying for a while.

I think Rossi's effort to compare his first five years with Stoner's first five years is a round about way of saying he thinks he was a better rider back then. Don't know about that, the competition wasn't so strong in his early years. Roberts Jnr, Barros, Gibernau, Capirossi, Melandri, Biaggi, none of those guys were ever at the level of Stoner and Lorenzo.

Still, I have great respect for Rossi's riding skills, even though I don't care for the nonsense and disparaging comments about other riders in the past. At least now he is giving an honest assessment of his chances. I think he could cause problems even for the top two if he gets away well at the start of races. A win may be a possibility with a lot of luck. Can't see a championship though, that's most likely a bridge too far for Rossi on a Ducati.

[Oscar]

I think Rossi's effort to compare his first five years with Stoner's first five years is a round about way of saying he thinks he was a better rider back then.

I think he was pretty stung by the tweet, obviously. The comparison doesn't really hold up well, for the reasons you have outlined: Rossi did not have the level of competition AND he had very good, if not the best, equipment for the entire duration. The single outstanding episode that showed how simply outstanding Rossi was during his first five years (well, not the FIRST year, where he, as usual in his career, crashed rather a lot in his first season in a new class), and also the level of the competition, was P.I. '03 with the plus 14-second lead carved out over less than race distance.

And that's where it breaks down - Stoner and Lorenzo and Pedrosa have had to battle each other as well as Rossi, to achieve success. Rossi may well be trying the 'well, if they'd raced me when I was really quick...' line, but that is going to look more and more like 'the older I get, the faster I was' unless he can start mixing it up for podiums at least.

[Nachlauf]

This is all what ifs. Rossi ain't 22 years old anymore. And the Ducati of 2011 arguably wasn't as good as the Yamaha 2008 or the Honda 2002 for him. Also obviously Lorenzo and Stoner are tougher competition than Gibernau ever was. Trying to compute it back in favor or against Rossi is rather pointless. He had a great time back then, gained a lot of fans and bored others to death with his supremacy.

This thread is about the "EE" though. Rossi still managed to win 2 titles and many races. It's just that his former supremacy has been broken on almost every account by Stoner. If you ignore all the what-ifs then Rossi had a great time with the 800s. But the era has also brought him down from his throne of the best active rider.

[Zaphod]

re "the older I get, the faster I was"...........don't agree.
No doubt at all that he's had to work harder.......but when the bike was there, so was he.

I wonder if it stems from their diametricly opposed persona's, in relation to the polarisation of supporters.

Rossi's post-race antics weren't for me...........neither are Stoners comments on the world.I can appreciate where both were coming from though, so to not have an affection for either is just a reflection of my personality, not theirs.

Lorenzo's post race stunts used to shit me, when he was trying the "Rossi" act.........but he seems to be just "Jorge" now.

Personaly, I used to just to go and get myself some ice-cream or the like during the slow-down lap/podium..........and tune back in for the post race interviews.

I miss the old post race discussions I used to be able to have...........balanced, and fair.

Rainey/Doohan supporters.

"That Schwantz is a F@#$ING lunatic, and he's gunna hurt himself again !.......How lucky was he to stay on that time !!! (grrrrrrr)


Me.

"True, but that thing is a SH!Tbox, and he's got some talent, and balls, to even get the thing close to the others.......good effort I reckon !, and great to watch !!"


Rainey/Doohan supporters

"true.......but he's still a F@#$ING lunatic !!!"


Me

"Yeah.......... "


No venom, or point proving.

[Oscar]

re "the older I get, the faster I was"...........don't agree.
No doubt at all that he's had to work harder.......but when the bike was there, so was he.

Aha - but I said 'is going to look' - not 'is'. There's a BIG difference: perception vs. fact. If Rossi can't continue to be amongst the top four pretty consistently, then it's his past rather than his present that holds the gold of his career and the other three are eating his lunch. Any fair-minded race fan knows that Rossi transcends the 'as good as his last race' scope of judgement - but that is not immutable IF he doesn't get back to being a happy parc ferme camper. He's only had one worse season in his entire career: his first - and even then he won a race..

If you're going to taunt the young punks with how fearsome you were, you need to be damn good still if you're not to end up lying in the gutter muttering 'time was, I'd have ripped them a new one.' Because time IS, not WAS. There is a model for how it can best be done: the year was 1978, the place was the Isle of Man, and the rider's name we all know.

And while 'when the bike was there' etc. - well, the same could be reasonably said for Stoner with the Ducati, and with better results. That's what the record books will still say when the rest of us are too old to bleedin' remember who it was we used to cheer for.