After 2011, who will be the GOATEE ?

[motomania]

.......ummmm..........has anyone stepped back and just had a look at themselves ?

It's starting to look like third grade " Star-Wars Lego is the best !!"....."Nooooo Lego City Fire truck is the best !!!.......you don't know squat !!!!"


Good bloody lord...............

+1 precisely my point.

I did see them. They were removed because the mods believed that they were rude.

I made my comment because you said you wanted the Rossi vs Stoner "debate" to end and that the horse was dead. You never mentioned rude posts.

C'mon, you've been around here long enough to see and know exactly what my bitch was about with the R vs S debate. Both you and motogpmd are intelligent enough to know that I wasn't bitching about the GOATEE discussion. That point is nothing but splitting hairs.

I'm not arguing that Stoner and Rossi aren't the ONLY contenders for GOATEE. However, just because they are involved, doesn't mean that one is better automatically, despite the facts, just because you feel he is the golden child from ________. However, it seems that's what it's all about for some on this forum now. To me, that's exactly what FanBoi-ism is all about and exactly what MTM is known to NOT to be about. I'd looked around for many years for just the type of forum that MTM has a reputation for being. A place where it's about the bike racing and the talented pilots that astound us with their abilities. Including talk about the technology and mechanical aspects that make it all work. A place where there's not the constant drivel that you have to have chest waders or scuba gear to get through a mountain of defecation to find those 5 good posts. BTW, I don't believe that just because the petty fanboi crap happens on other websites and forums means that it's ok for it to happen here.

There's a great bunch of people here on MTM, some that have been around since the beginning with others that have joined in over the last few years of it's existence. Lets show the reason why the MTM website, and hopefully these attached forums, are where folks come to get the low down on the what's happening in MotoGP with an opportunity to discuss those matters without resorting to trashing riders or posters just because your a fan of Rider Z.

Let's get MTM back to being what it was intended to be again. We don't need the, as Zaphod so perfectly put it, third grade attitude. Let's leave that for the other forums, etc.

One last thing, if you see a post that you feel isn't appropriate, click the little white triangle icon with the red exclamation point in it. The moderators will then look to check the post. It's your forum, if you see something that's inappropriate, let them know instead of just ignoring it. Sometimes it ruins a thread if they have to try and edit/weed out something that's been there awhile vs when it first appears. I'll continue to do that as well as suggesting the Stoner VS Rossi, the never ending debate as a place to take discussions I feel are only about them and not real facts or true discussion. I'm sure that if I'm out of hand with it or overstep the boundaries and guidelines that I'll be quickly reminded so by the powers that be on MTM.

I'll not comment here again about the S vs R item and let the topic discussion return.

[Albert]

Understand that you dont think any are right
But as a Val fan yourself what do you say is the cause of the Massive (it is) change in his stats from the first 6 to the last 6 ?

It is a little harshly worded, but I read it as meaning the current competition is better. I think it would be fair to say Casey and Jorge are more metronomic in their lap times than the guys you mention above, hence the comment that, "the competition stepped up".

I doubt he's reached his prime and I did see evidence that the 800's were a problem for him.

Mick, I'm sorry about this but several of the previous posts would have to be moved if I don't reply on this thread!

Fair points Cam, especially regarding Jorgé and Casey.

E.H – I’m not really sure if I can put this across openly and fairly and still keep within the thread topic.
Incidentally – if you take the title of this topic as the main point then there is only ONE clear winner and that is Casey. The titles may match up over the 800 era but on a count back of race wins Casey takes it and that's the discussion ended as far as the thread title goes!

I wouldn’t rate the last six years as a serious decline, (Other than 2011 obviously!) but it is fair to say that the opposition certainly stepped up.

2006 – 2nd. 2007 – 3rd. 2008 – 1st. 2009 – 1st. 2010 – 3rd. 2011 – 7th.

What I might be tempted to say is that his previous standard was so high that anything other than a win was perceived as failure.
Maybe, like the rest of us, he’s got older and lost a little motivation. (Although I seriously doubt the latter!)

I certainly don’t think that the competition was any the less back then.
Some of the racing, (particularly against Seté Gibernau in his heyday) was spectacular to behold! --------- and it was much closer racing a lot of the time!

I believe that you're correct Cam. There was definite evidence that the 800 didn’t suit him as well as it suited others, (or even as much as the 990) but he still took two World titles on it!

In amongst all this lets not forget that in 2007 ALL of the Japanese factories got caught with their pants down. Ducati built a bike (history and research will prove I'm right!) that was the fastest/most powerful thing out there and then tailored it to make sure it got to the finishing line! The electronics were so sophisticated that they leaned out the mixture and cut the fueling on the over-run in order to save precious drops. Allied to that they then managed to get a rider on it who wrung it's neck and fought it to the finishing line! There were times when he must have felt he'd done 10 rounds with Mike Tyson!

Only the blind, foolish, ignorant or blinkered (I’m fairly certain that I don’t fit in there – not sure about the rest of you? ) can deny the achievements of either rider, and as for the earlier comment about the 500 being easy/easier to ride --------- please don’t go down that rather ridiculous route!

Possibly one of the best set of stats for Rossi that I’ve come across --------- http://www.race-database.com/driver/car ... _id=vross1

[motogpmd]

In amongst all this lets not forget that in 2007 ALL of the Japanese factories got caught with their pants down. Ducati built a bike (history and research will prove I'm right!) that was the fastest/most powerful thing out there and then tailored it to make sure it got to the finishing line! The electronics were so sophisticated that they leaned out the mixture and cut the fueling on the over-run in order to save precious drops. Allied to that they then managed to get a rider on it who wrung it's neck and fought it to the finishing line! There were times when he must have felt he'd done 10 rounds with Mike Tyson!

Sorry, but I am always amused when anyone talks about the special qualities of the 2007 Ducati. We wouldn't even be talking about the 2007 Ducati if it wasn't for Stoner. Stoner made that bike seem special. Without Stoner there would be no discussion about the Ducati being the most powerful bike, or it's special electronics, or about the Japanese being caught with their pants down. Capirossi finished 7th that year, 201 points behind his teammate. It is quite extraordinary that Stoner won more races on the 800 Ducati than Rossi won on the 800 Yamaha. Without Stoner the 800cc Ducati in all it's forms would have been almost a complete failure, just a footnote in MotoGP history, like the 800 Suzuki.

[Albert]

--------- and in turn I'm bemused and, in equal measure, amused, by those who try to deny that the 2007 Ducati was rather special in comparison to the rest of the field!

The blinkered preoccupation with denying it does grave injustice to both Ducati and Prezziosi!
It's a well documented fact that the 2007 Ducati had electronics that were far more sophisticated than the opposition!

It's also well documented as to what they (Ducati) did!

Jeezus man - don't fret about it --------- I've given Casey due praise! (On this thread and many others!)

You can argue all you want --------- I'm done with the arguments!

You have your train of thought and I have mine!

If you don't try to force your opinions on me then in return I won't force mine onto you!

[sir_nj]

It's a well documented fact that the 2007 Ducati had electronics that were far more sophisticated than the opposition!

and isn't it similarly well documented that Stoner turned the bits that he could either down or off?

To me the "specialness" of the 07 duc was never better highlighted than the end of season differences in results between Stoner and Capirossi. It had straight line speed which was there for all to see but the rest of it, well..... it was so "special" only one person could ride it.

Without Stoner the 800cc Ducati in all it's forms would have been almost a complete failure, just a footnote in MotoGP history, like the 800 Suzuki.

True but I hope we won't be able to say the same of the 1000cc Ducati in say 2013-14.

[RatsMC]

This discussion is weirdly argumentative and pointlessly so. Both sides to this are equally and undeniably true: the 2007 Ducati shocked the Japanese and they even said so. It wasn't a magical bike and its advantage was muted to some degree over the season but Ducati clearly got the formula right while Honda spent 3 years trying to figure out it.

At the same time, Stoner's results when compared to any other Ducati rider's make it very clear that he was also a very serious talent.

The fact that both of these arguments are used to counter the other when both are irrefutable just seems insane - or at least irrational.

[sir_nj]

This discussion is weirdly argumentative and pointlessly so. Both sides to this are equally and undeniably true: the 2007 Ducati shocked the Japanese and they even said so. It wasn't a magical bike and its advantage was muted to some degree over the season but Ducati clearly got the formula right while Honda spent 3 years trying to figure out it.

At the same time, Stoner's results when compared to any other Ducati rider's make it very clear that he was also a very serious talent.

The fact that both of these arguments are used to counter the other when both are irrefutable just seems insane - or at least irrational.

I guess what it's highlighting to me is that after 2011 the GOATEE will NOT be on a bike that isn't up there with the best of them. The level of competition between the 4 is too high for any of them to make up for a deficiency in the bike. I'm also thinking that Pedrosa's history says he won't win a senior WC so that rules him out, Rossi won't get the Duc up to speed fast enough this year to be 2012 WC so that is kind of going to rule him out as he has less time before his "best before date". So that leaves Stoner and Lorenzo unless someone else steps up to the plate. Stoner may have the edge at the moment but he isn't going to race if/when the rules (and bikes) get dumbed down which would leave Lorenzo as the last man standing. There you go, that was easy eh?

[Oscar]

The fact that both of these arguments are used to counter the other when both are irrefutable just seems insane - or at least irrational.

They are NOT mutually exclusive! If the '07 Duc had been simply incapable of winning, nobody would have gained a WC on it. However, - and this is a continuing flaw in any argument which seeks to 'prove' that one machine is superior to another and that is the sole reason for a specific rider's success - it is too easy to see one factor of performance and place that as the 'proof' that bike X is better than Bike Y. The equation is simply not that unsophisticated. A stock 1960's Pontiac GTO will hose off a 2005 (say) Mazda Miata in a straight 1/4 mile sprint - so which one would be the first to the bottom of a tight canyon run?

Without Stoner the 800cc Ducati in all it's forms would have been almost a complete failure, just a footnote in MotoGP history, like the 800 Suzuki.

In his four years atop a Duc, Stoner garnered a total of 1092 points - average 273 per season. His teammates garnered 484, or an average of 121 per season. His team mates between them held 5 x W.C.s, 3 x 2nd places and 7 x 3rd places in GP racing.

[motogpmd]

This discussion is weirdly argumentative and pointlessly so. Both sides to this are equally and undeniably true: the 2007 Ducati shocked the Japanese and they even said so. It wasn't a magical bike and its advantage was muted to some degree over the season but Ducati clearly got the formula right while Honda spent 3 years trying to figure out it.

At the same time, Stoner's results when compared to any other Ducati rider's make it very clear that he was also a very serious talent.

The fact that both of these arguments are used to counter the other when both are irrefutable just seems insane - or at least irrational.

No, the Japanese were shocked by the performance of the Stoner Ducati. No Stoner, no shocked Japanese. The abiding image of 2007 for many people is Stoner blasting past Rossi down the main straight at Qatar. But where was Capirossi on the same bike? In eighth place on the first lap, never higher than fifth and eventually he crashed out.

If Ducati had finished in seventh place in the championship, there would have been no shocked Japanese and no discussion about the superior Ducati electronics. Instead, people would have been calling for Preziosi's head, just as they were in 2011.

There is a clear parallel with Rossi and Yamaha in 2004. Without Rossi, Furusawa's innovative design would likely have been just another footnote in MotoGP history.

[Oscar]

The abiding image of 2007 for many people is Stoner blasting past Rossi down the main straight at Qatar. But where was Capirossi on the same bike? In eighth place on the first lap, never higher than fifth and eventually he crashed out.

Just to recount some other facts from that race: Stoner's top recorded speed was 314.1 kph; of the other Ducatis, first home was Barros in 9th place, 25.961 secs behind Stoner - top speed 316.3; next Alex Hofmann in 11th, 35.029 secs behind Stoner - top speed 314.3, and crashed out - Capirossi, top speed 314.4.

[motogpmd]

To add more, the Japanese wouldn't have given a a stuff about Ducati electronics if it wasn't for Stoner. Rossi and Pedrosa wouldn't have given a stuff about Bridgestone tires if it wasn't for Stoner.

Ducati's team in 2006 was Caprossi and Gibernau. Capirossi was in contention for the world championship in 2006. In 2007 he finished 7th. Does anyone think that Gibernau could have won the world championship in 2007? Of course not. So who could have won the world championship for Ducati apart from Stoner? Rossi and Pedrosa were not available: they were contracted to Yamaha and Honda. We saw what happened to Melandri on a Ducati in 2008.

The ONLY reason anyone thinks the 2007 Ducati was a great bike is because Stoner turned it into a winner. No Stoner, no world championship. Very simple concept.

It was the same in 2003/4. Everyone thought the Yamaha was a dog until Rossi joined the team. Clearly both the Yamaha and Ducati had potential, but it took special riders to show just how much potential they had.

The rider is still very important in MotoGP, more so than the driver in F1. I have no doubt that the Suzuki would have been a regular race winner with Stoner or Rossi on board.

[Squidpuppet]

The abiding image of 2007 for many people is Stoner blasting past Rossi down the main straight at Qatar. But where was Capirossi on the same bike? In eighth place on the first lap, never higher than fifth and eventually he crashed out.

Just to recount some other facts from that race: Stoner's top recorded speed was 314.1 kph; of the other Ducatis, first home was Barros in 9th place, 25.961 secs behind Stoner - top speed 316.3; next Alex Hofmann in 11th, 35.029 secs behind Stoner - top speed 314.3, and crashed out - Capirossi, top speed 314.4.

Valentino Rossi 302.4

[RatsMC]

It should also be pointed out that if Stoner had stayed at LCR, he would have been just another RdP and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[motomania]

Stoner VS Rossi, the never ending debate

[RatsMC]

Mick, I'm glad that topic is there but I think in this case the topic is really Rossi/Stoner except with a focus on the 800cc era. I'm sure there is stuff that should be moved to the other topic but that is a terribly tedious and time-consuming task and I think it might make both topic more confusing than they already are.

[Oscar]

Mick - with due respect for the intention of the Rossi vs Stoner thread, some of this stuff is still relevant on this thread, simply because we are discussing the two guys on the top of the heap in the designated era.

Valentino Rossi 302.4

And Rossi finished ahead of the fastest Ducati by some 23 seconds! Now, the point I am trying to make here is that - as has been stated above - the abiding image of 2007 was Stoner streaking away down the straight at Qatar and the mantra that the Ducati top speed was the entire key to success was born, and largely refuses to die. Barros was no Rossi, certainly (and I don't rate Hofmann much at all), but he was still a vastly experienced premier class rider who had sometimes beaten Rossi and rarely had been so firmly mid-pack. Capirex had been a very serious contender for the title the previous year, but he never got higher than fifth in that race, and his top speed was, again, higher than Stoner's.

That the top speed disparity between Stoner's bike and Rossi's bike was a factor in Stoner's win, is inescapable. That it was the factor is plainly nonsense. Every bike on the grid at Qatar was brand-spankers new, so please, let's not have any postulation that Stoner had an advantage in kit over the other Duc riders.

This whole thing about the top speed advantage at Qatar does need to be exposed and considered - because it set a tone on the entire story of the 800s era. A kid who had never finished better than 2nd in a WC season, who had had the occasional flash of brilliance but was clearly capable of being written off as a 'crasher' from the previous year - challenging the might of Rossi? That simply does not happen - it can't be the rider, it must be something else - aha, the best bike!

When it started to become inescapably evident that 'the best bike' was not steam-rolling the field every race, new reasons were sought to explain Stoner's mysterious advantage over Rossi, and the 'playstation kid' rationale surfaced. That one, too, has taken more than just hosing down; every time it has been pronounced deceased, it has proven to be nailed as firmly to the perch as on the day it was sold.

There are plenty of more subjective areas for debate on the Rossi vs Stoner thread - but the 'top speed advantage at Qatar' is a factual issue that has been a lynch-pin of debate about the '07 season. It became such a mantra that Stoner's bike was subject to protest. Did Ducati come out of the box at Qatar '07 with a bike capable of winning? - obviously, the answer is yes. Was it as capable, in terms of the rest of the field, as the bike it had presented one race before, that came first with a wild-card rider and second with it's No. 1 team rider? - debateable.

[Squidpuppet]

Valentino Rossi 302.4

And Rossi finished ahead of the fastest Ducati by some 23 seconds! Now, the point I am trying to make here is ced deceased, it has proven to be nailed as firmly to the perch as on the day it was sold.

I know, I know, I know. I was just cruising through the thread, spotted a glowing ember, and decided to throw a quart of kerosene on it just for shits and giggles.

[Grahluk]

That's what the record books will still say when the rest of us are too old to bleedin' remember who it was we used to cheer for.

Indeed, but even more "ultimately", what the record books will say is that Rossi won 2 800cc titles, Stoner won 2 800cc title and Lorenzo won 1 800cc title. Everything else will be forgotten.

We don't look at Doohan and say he won this many races Vs I dunno, Criville, we don't say Agostini won x amount of races Vs x rider. They will be remembered on the number of titles won.

This isn't dismissive of the actual statistics, but in the long run, nobody will know, nor care about the details.

People will remember that Stoner won his championships on a Ducati and a Honda, while Rossi and Lorenzo won theirs on a Yamaha. Important distinction.

People won't remember some narrow bracket of time where the last item was cherry picked. They'll remember that Rossi won 9 WC, 7 in the premier class on Hondas and Yamahas. This isn't Rossi flag waving but just pointing out that IMO the original point is THE point. People won't remember a GOATEE thread on a discussion forum. It will be the history in entirety and the single memorable moments that had hearts pounding, sides splitting in laughter, or mute disbelief and horror. Rossi's pass on Stoner in the corkscrew in LS, Stoner's pass of Lorenzo on the outside of the straight and turn 1 of the same track. Strangely and anecdotally Lorenzo's post win swim at Jerez. Rainey, Kato, Tomizawa, Simoncelli's last rides. Nobody will care about the minutiae of details and how one can comb the statistics. People will only remember what is memorable.

[Oscar]

They'll remember that Rossi won 9 WC, 7 in the premier class on Hondas and Yamahas.

Of course - and attempts by rabid Stoner fans to diminish Rossi's achievements are as vacuous as the opposite. The point of the GOATEE thread is to examine a period of racing and winnow the chaff from the wheat within that boundary. I think it will be a distinct period in history - just as the 500's and the 990s were - and in the spirit of mtm, what we are trying to do here is to distill the facts of that period from the general melee. It's a valid discussion, and will I believe be remembered as the period of 'the four aliens' (whether that carries over to the new class is a delicious prospect), but by the same token, the 990's are absolutely and undisputably the province of a single god, and his name is Rossi. I don't believe that there is any era (but I am happy to be proven wrong) where the contrast of two rider's times on the one brand of bike has been thrown into such a sharp light as the Stoner-Rossi Ducati experience.

[Zaphod]

After a self imposed, beligerent "stupid bloody 4 strokes/bastard bloody honda getting their own way !" exile from a sport I once followed rabidly, all I remember about Rainey was his demon ability to hang it all out on cold tyres during the first lap/laps in an effort to make a break, his consitancy and ability on a bike that wasn't exactly the best out there.

All I remember about Schwantz is holding my breath alot ! , and his amazing talent on a bike that had no business being in the top 10.......let alone hounding Rainey and co all the way.

I remember some of the joy of him finally nailing a WC being sucked out of the occasion due to Rainey not being there........

I remember the Laguna races, Hockenhiem and Assen........especially '91.


And the same applies to now.

I think we should, after so long of it not being the case, enjoy the fact we have a situation similar to '89 to '93.

We have a Rainey (Lorenzo), a Schwantz (Stoner), and a Lawson ( Rossi )....the last meaning he may be on the wane (open to debate), but all jibes and snide comments from his oponents aside,.....he is a prescence I don't think they take lightly.

We lost one possible "Schwantz" type last year..............and maybe we have another "Doohan" in Spies...........if he gets it together.........and lets not forget how long it took Doohan to fire on all cylinders ( not having a go at him or Doohan, sometimes these things take time....for whatever reasons)

I hope all of them have better careers than the people to whom I've compared them to.........especially the first one.

You wouldn't wish a repeat on anyone......


So I say, lets stop buggerising around with pointless arguments and just enjoy the present spectacle....because it's rare....

....and because by the virtue of his records, appraisals made by his contempories, and many afterwards, The Greatest Of All Time is Hailwood........others may compare in one slight way or another......but not over-all.

.....unless one of the current go and drive a car etc for 11 years, then come back and still smoke everyone.........on a shit bike none the less........

[Cam D]

every time it has been pronounced deceased, it has proven to be nailed as firmly to the perch as on the day it was sold.

O know, I know, I know. I was just cruising through the thread, spotted a glowing ember, and decided to throw a quart of kerosene on it just for shits and giggles
Gold boys!
Fogging Flogging the dead Budgie so to speak...

[sir_nj]

Fogging the dead Budgie so to speak...

can't help my self.

Foggy's not dead, he's just restin'

[Oscar]

The Greatest Of All Time is Hailwood

Amen... we are not worthy...

unless one of the current go and drive a car etc for 11 years, then come back and still smoke everyone.........on a shit bike none the less........

Hang on a moment, that Ducati was built from some of the best used parts found lying under Sports Motorcycle's bench. (Ducati were going to help but the bits never turned up... where have we heard of that happening, eh?) And they say there's no future for CRT!

[Cam D]

Fogging the dead Budgie so to speak...

can't help my self.

Foggy's not dead, he's just restin'

hahahahaha ... must proof read ....

[tom]

HRC just posted this on twitter
http://twitpic.com/8gt42a

I'm 95% sure that graphic came from an issue of Australian Motorcycle News perhaps about a couple of months back.

AMCN confirmed in their latest issue that it was their graphic. Good to be right on something so important :lol