After 2011, who will be the GOATEE ?

[Zaphod]

Hang on a moment, that Ducati was built from some of the best used parts found lying under Sports Motorcycle's bench. (Ducati were going to help but the bits never turned up... where have we heard of that happening, eh?) And they say there's no future for CRT!

I saw a program where Ducati, and bike loving Italian's in general, still insist that the colour scheme for the bike was drawn from the Italian Flag............. despite the bloke from Sports Motorcycles (shame on me for forgetting his name........I can see his face.......damn !!) saying that the thing was painted, in a last minute way, those colours after looking 'round the workshop and seeing a Castrol Drum...........and what with Castrol being about the only sponsor they had, it seemed the logical choice.

I know who I believe..................and it isn't Ducati, or the Italians !!


Strewth Hailwood was good !......and what a bloke ! ( by all accounts)........have a few good books on him.

Bloody truck drivers !!!!

[yzr750]

............ despite the bloke from Sports Motorcycles (shame on me for forgetting his name........I can see his face.......damn !!)

Steve Wynne.

[motogpmd]

It should also be pointed out that if Stoner had stayed at LCR, he would have been just another RdP and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Partly true, no-one (including Rossi) would have won a world championship on a satellite bike with Michelin's off-the-shelf slow tires. But Stoner is several notches higher than RdP as a rider. Stoner on a LCR Honda with Michelin or Bridgestone tires equal to the works teams would have won races. No doubt about it.

[motogpmd]

and lets not forget how long it took Doohan to fire on all cylinders ( not having a go at him or Doohan, sometimes these things take time....for whatever reasons)

IIRC Doohan had to start his career on Michelin's shit tires, not the specials reserved for the established works riders. As soon as Doohan got access to the good tires he became competitive. But he had some very hot competition from the very beginning of his career (Lawson, Rainey, Gardner, Schwantz). There was some incredible racing back then, but I seem to remember Doohan destroying the field in Hungary for his first race win.

[Doca]

For the record I looked back at the top speed charts for 2007. Ducati was clearly the fastest pretty much through out year, however I don't think top speed was not a recipe for success as the Suzuki & Kawasaki were also constantly near the top of the top speed charts. The other Ducati riders (all on the same bike as 1st year of the 800's) were also fast without much success.

[Zaphod]

and lets not forget how long it took Doohan to fire on all cylinders ( not having a go at him or Doohan, sometimes these things take time....for whatever reasons)

IIRC Doohan had to start his career on Michelin's shit tires, not the specials reserved for the established works riders. As soon as Doohan got access to the good tires he became competitive. But he had some very hot competition from the very beginning of his career (Lawson, Rainey, Gardner, Schwantz). There was some incredible racing back then, but I seem to remember Doohan destroying the field in Hungary for his first race win.

that's why I said "for whatever reasons"................ It did take a long time. That's the fact............not the reasons.

I'm sure Spies has issues/reasons of his own

[motogpmd]

For the record I looked back at the top speed charts for 2007. Ducati was clearly the fastest pretty much through out year, however I don't think top speed was not a recipe for success as the Suzuki & Kawasaki were also constantly near the top of the top speed charts. The other Ducati riders (all on the same bike as 1st year of the 800's) were also fast without much success.

Top speed has very little impact on lap times, and any advantage can be completely lost against a bike that brakes better. The Yamaha has been the king of braking and mid corner speed for a long time, including 2007. A higher top speed can make life easier in a close duel, as it certainly did on a few occasions for Stoner in 2007, but overall it was a minor factor in Stoner's performance that year.

[Gustav O]

Top speed has very little impact on lap times, and any advantage can be completely lost against a bike that brakes better. The Yamaha has been the king of braking and mid corner speed for a long time, including 2007. A higher top speed can make life easier in a close duel, as it certainly did on a few occasions for Stoner in 2007, but overall it was a minor factor in Stoner's performance that year.

Well. The 2007 Ducati had a clear edge in corner exit, acceleration and top speed, especially in the early part of the season. The Yamaha was better mid coerner and on the brakes. The advantage in performance from the Bridgestone tires can not be over looked either.

[motogpmd]

that's why I said "for whatever reasons"................ It did take a long time. That's the fact............not the reasons.

I'm sure Spies has issues/reasons of his own

Sure, it was just a comment on the reasons, I am not objecting to what you said at all, I thought at the time that it was odd that Doohan seemed to struggle for while, then suddenly became a consistent winner.

[motogpmd]

Well. The 2007 Ducati had a clear edge in corner exit, acceleration and top speed, especially in the early part of the season. The Yamaha was better mid coerner and on the brakes. The advantage in performance from the Bridgestone tires can not be over looked either.

Well, Stoner's bike seems to have an advantage in corner exit speed and acceleration, don't know about Capirossi and Barros. Did they have a different bike? The Bridgetones certainly were better than the Michelins at some tracks, but not all, for example the Ducati struggled at Mugello.

[RatsMC]

It should also be pointed out that if Stoner had stayed at LCR, he would have been just another RdP and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Partly true, no-one (including Rossi) would have won a world championship on a satellite bike with Michelin's off-the-shelf slow tires. But Stoner is several notches higher than RdP as a rider. Stoner on a LCR Honda with Michelin or Bridgestone tires equal to the works teams would have won races. No doubt about it.

And whose to say that RdP wouldn't have wins under his belt with a real bike? the fact is, Stoner was Ducati's second choice and was simply expected to ride behind Capirossi. That things worked differently was not foretold by Ducati and his contract reflected that. Stoner was brought into Ducati in the same capacity as Hayden. He wasn't expected to win the title. Hell, he wasn't expected to win races.

[motogpmd]

And whose to say that RdP wouldn't have wins under his belt with a real bike? the fact is, Stoner was Ducati's second choice and was simply expected to ride behind Capirossi. That things worked differently was not foretold by Ducati and his contract reflected that. Stoner was brought into Ducati in the same capacity as Hayden. He wasn't expected to win the title. Hell, he wasn't expected to win races.

Well I don't agree with you about RdP, but otherwise yes you are quite right.

The thing is, in 2011 there were four fast Honda's, and it is clear that the 2011 Honda was a strong bike. In 2007 there was just one fast Ducati. Capirossi and the rest were nowhere. This is why the claims that the Ducati was the best bike fall in a heap. I didn't rate Stoner at all going into 2007. Even mid season I thought Rossi would get to him mentally and Stoner would throw it all away. But it was Rossi who cracked. So, like I expect any reasonable person would do in those circumstances, I changed my mind and concluded that Stoner was something special, because all the facts supported such an opinion. And while the results after 2007 were not so good, the way Stoner demolished his team mates was clear evidence to me that Stoner was a special talent, and the Ducati was just a very difficult bike. 2011 confirmed my opinion about both Ducati and Stoner.

[Doca]

For the record I looked back at the top speed charts for 2007. Ducati was clearly the fastest pretty much through out year, however I don't think top speed was not a recipe for success as the Suzuki & Kawasaki were also constantly near the top of the top speed charts. The other Ducati riders (all on the same bike as 1st year of the 800's) were also fast without much success.

Top speed has very little impact on lap times, and any advantage can be completely lost against a bike that brakes better. The Yamaha has been the king of braking and mid corner speed for a long time, including 2007. A higher top speed can make life easier in a close duel, as it certainly did on a few occasions for Stoner in 2007, but overall it was a minor factor in Stoner's performance that year.

I agree completely, I don't think the top speed was the advantage that the Stoner detractors would like to believe it was. No point denying the top speed was there though.

[Tourn46]

I didn't rate Stoner at all going into 2007. Even mid season I thought Rossi would get to him mentally and Stoner would throw it all away. But it was Rossi who cracked.

Although I don't really agree with your overall assessment about Stoner, my opinion differs greatly... your points are well constructed and explained well and I respect them for that reason, however this one has left me wondering.

Could you expand on how Rossi cracked in 2007 because I've never heard this suggested before, nor can I think of any evidence.
If we're talking about him blaming tyres (the only thing I can think of)... the switch to BS in 2008 and the results for Rossi to me suggests that was a justified argument.

[Tourn46]

I agree completely, I don't think the top speed was the advantage that the Stoner detractors would like to believe it was. No point denying the top speed was there though.

But it's also possible that the way the Ducati got that power down and the speed they got up to their "superior" top speed provided enough of a safety net for the rest of the track... even if the Yamaha was deemed better in the corners.

As we know the 800cc period had one, precise, optimum line, unless the other bikes were close enough to utilise their strengths at the end of a straight, it's "worth" becomes very little. Mid-corner on one pre-determined best line... you can only go as fast as the person in front of you and you can't sacrifice deviating from this line.

I'm not saying it's the ONLY reason for 2007, but I think it correlates with the Honda performance... getting out of the corners as well as they did in 2011 provided enough coverage for the other areas. I know people will think I'm trying to diminish Stoner's achievement's I'm not... he had to get those bikes around the track quicker than anyone else and he did that, no question... but the machines do vary and if you get an advantage, then cool, it plays it's part... and that's fine, it's simply just how it is in motorsport.
Ducati in 2007 and Honda in 2011 both had it right (or at least "better" than their opponents) in the areas that proved to be the most important. I've explained this before in another thread how I think they snookered the strengths of their opponents.

(Edited to add: Also with Stoner supposedly being a God on the throttle, if he is strong in the same area that the bike is strong... then the synergy must enhance the benefit of being on said machine)

That's how I see it anyway.

[Gustav O]

Ducati in 2007 and Honda in 2011 both had it right (or at least "better" than their opponents) in the areas that proved to be the most important. I've explained this before in another thread how I think they snookered the strengths of their opponents.

And Yamaha was better than Honda and Ducati in adapting and gaining strength from 2008 through 2010 with a better engine, revised balance to get more grip and Bridgestones. All this while maintaning their advantage in the corners. During the end of 2010 and in 2011 Honda had caught up and managed to get a bike that was an overall better package and had a clear advantage out of corners and in accelelration compared to the opposition. Natural progression an GPs from day one.

[Tourn46]

Ducati in 2007 and Honda in 2011 both had it right (or at least "better" than their opponents) in the areas that proved to be the most important. I've explained this before in another thread how I think they snookered the strengths of their opponents.

And Yamaha was better than Honda and Ducati in adapting and gaining strength from 2008 through 2010 with a better engine, revised balance to get more grip and Bridgestones. All this while maintaning their advantage in the corners. During 2010 and in 2011 Honda had caught up and managed to get a bike that was an overall better package and had a clear advantage out of corners and in accelelration compared to the opposition. Natural progression an GPs from day one.

Absolutely mate, 100% agree.

[motogpmd]

Although I don't really agree with your overall assessment about Stoner, my opinion differs greatly... your points are well constructed and explained well and I respect them for that reason, however this one has left me wondering.
Could you expand on how Rossi cracked in 2007 because I've never heard this suggested before, nor can I think of any evidence.
If we're talking about him blaming tyres (the only thing I can think of)... the switch to BS in 2008 and the results for Rossi to me suggests that was a justified argument.

Regarding the Bridgetones, if it wasn't for Stoner's performances, if the assessment of the Bridgestones was based on the performance of the other Ducatis, Capirossi and Barros, I don't think Rossi would have wanted to make the switch. After all, it was clear enough in 2006 that the Bridgestones were better than the Michelins at some tracks.

As for Rossi cracking, that might be making it sound a bit over dramatic. I just mean that it was Rossi who made was making mistakes, not Stoner. China for example, where Rossi ran off at the end of the straight, Catalunya where Rossi ran wide a couple of times, and then Germany where Rossi crashed out pushing too hard (by his own admission, knowing he needed to make up ground on Stoner at a Michelin friendly track).

[Tourn46]

As for Rossi cracking, that might be making it sound a bit over dramatic. I just mean that it was Rossi who made was making mistakes, not Stoner. China for example, where Rossi ran off at the end of the straight, Catalunya where Rossi ran wide a couple of times, and then Germany where Rossi crashed out pushing too hard (by his own admission, knowing he needed to make up ground on Stoner at a Michelin friendly track).

Those to me are instances of Rossi trying to utilise the strength of his machine and himself (braking and cornering) to counter the Strengths of the Ducati and for me it bolsters my argument that the benefit of getting the power down out of corners well and getting to a high top speed proved to be a slightly better formula in the 800cc era.
You certainly see more mistakes made by all riders braking and turning in, than you do getting out of the corners, so to be pushing in that area brings more risk - as we saw with Rossi going wide.

Perhaps Germany is an exception, but is pushing as hard as you can and making a mistake 'cracking' mentally? I'm not sure that it is.

My comments by no means ignores the fact the rider has to do a lot and the bike has to be good enough in the other areas however... I just talking about relative value of strengths.

[Squidpuppet]

Perhaps Germany is an exception, but is pushing as hard as you can and making a mistake 'cracking' mentally? I'm not sure that it is.

Yes. Pushing too hard and making mistakes are mental errors. Typically one does this when feeling pressured.

[Oscar]

Perhaps Germany is an exception, but is pushing as hard as you can and making a mistake 'cracking' mentally? I'm not sure that it is.

It is absolutely what gave Stoner the reputation of questionable mental strength - up until Rossi rode the Ducati, whereupon it became obvious to nearly all that the Ducati was a seriously flawed bike where the argument of 'cracking' became rather more one of 'not gambling' - and even then, as we saw, 'not gambling' did not equate to 'not crashing'. Carlo Pernat summed it up most succinctly, though certain trans-atlantic commentators resolutely fail to see the parallels.

Yes. Pushing too hard and making mistakes are mental errors. Typically one does this when feeling pressured.

If the error is 'predictable', I agree - e.g. braking too late for a corner, getting on the throttle too soon/hard, taking a line that simply won't be available. If the error is unpredictable - i.e. due to a variation in machine response that cannot be pre-determined - then I believe it's perhaps more down to 'not leaving a sufficient margin for error' which may well be a very conscious and mentally tough decision. Most successful racers leave such a slim margin for error that a 'machine' failure results in a crash, virtually every time. Witness Lorenzo, practice, L.S. '11, or Stoner, tank-slapper, Motegi '11

[tom]

For the record I looked back at the top speed charts for 2007. Ducati was clearly the fastest pretty much through out year, however I don't think top speed was not a recipe for success as the Suzuki & Kawasaki were also constantly near the top of the top speed charts. The other Ducati riders (all on the same bike as 1st year of the 800's) were also fast without much success.

Doca do you have that in excel form? it would be interesting to ass a column in for the difference in speed between the top Ducatis speed and that of the next Honda or Yamaha.

[RatsMC]

Those to me are instances of Rossi trying to utilise the strength of his machine and himself (braking and cornering) to counter the Strengths of the Ducati and for me it bolsters my argument that the benefit of getting the power down out of corners well and getting to a high top speed proved to be a slightly better formula in the 800cc era.
You certainly see more mistakes made by all riders braking and turning in, than you do getting out of the corners, so to be pushing in that area brings more risk - as we saw with Rossi going wide.

But the 800s were defined by the importance of corner speed. Yamaha proved this over and over again.

Perhaps Germany is an exception, but is pushing as hard as you can and making a mistake 'cracking' mentally? I'm not sure that it is.

Cracking might not be the right word but Rossi was definitely making more unforced mistakes than he had previously. I think that is a pretty clear indication that a rider is at the very least frustrated.

[Gustav O]

But the 800s were defined by the importance of corner speed. Yamaha proved this over and over again.

But in order to use it you can not be lacking too much in the acceleration/speed department. I would say that anyone that says the Ducati did not have advantages over the Yamahas/Hondas in 2007 are lying or plain blind. Of course ithad disadvantages also.

[Doca]

For the record I looked back at the top speed charts for 2007. Ducati was clearly the fastest pretty much through out year, however I don't think top speed was not a recipe for success as the Suzuki & Kawasaki were also constantly near the top of the top speed charts. The other Ducati riders (all on the same bike as 1st year of the 800's) were also fast without much success.

Doca do you have that in excel form? it would be interesting to ass a column in for the difference in speed between the top Ducatis speed and that of the next Honda or Yamaha.