CRT - The new prototypes

[boson]

Lets hope we don't end up with another drawn out scenario every race...

Factories > Satellites+RdP > Other Aprillias > Other CRTs

[Sloth27]

AMCN printed a rumour this week that Biaggi let slip at a pre-season function that this year will be the last for the RSV4 in WSBK. Whether that means a new model is being developed or Aprillia are focusing their attention elsewhere remains to be seen.

Or Biaggi could be shit stirring

[JanBros]

AMCN printed a rumour this week that Biaggi let slip at a pre-season function that this year will be the last for the RSV4 in WSBK. Whether that means a new model is being developed or Aprillia are focusing their attention elsewhere remains to be seen.

Or Biaggi could be shit stirring

or he could retire at the end of the season

[phoenix1]

AMCN printed a rumour this week that Biaggi let slip at a pre-season function that this year will be the last for the RSV4 in WSBK. Whether that means a new model is being developed or Aprillia are focusing their attention elsewhere remains to be seen.

Or Biaggi could be shit stirring

Juicy nugget. Could be true, imo. I think WSBK works on five-year contracts like MotoGP. The first was 2003-2007, at which point the 1200cc rules were introduced. The second contract expires at the end of this season. We already know Ducati are not particularly enthused with the current rule set since they withdrew the factory team, and they refuse to race the 1199 Panigale though they have a homologation.

Perhaps Aprilia are not enthusiastic about the contract changes for 2013.

Pure speculation, with a bit of mainstream rumor, but I think WSBK is moving to a fixed rev limit in 2013 (probably something modest). Factory teams will no longer be necessary b/c one development cycle is all a team really needs. This year's development cycle was probably finished a while ago so Yamaha pulled the plug early to save some scratch. They couldn't attract a private team to run their effort. Pity.

[RatsMC]

I think that is all reasonable conclusions. Seeing Effenburg out there has got to make any factory stop and think about whether investing in WSBK is worthwhile when a private team on a 5 year old bike shows podium potential with not 1 but 3 riders.

[Gustav O]

Effenbert ducati.
http://www.effenbert.com/

[RatsMC]

I was actually just sorting that out. Several articles (including one here on the main site as well as on Crash and The Guardian) have it spelled Effenberg. Since we don't have the brand over here, I wasn't sure.

[Domino]

everyone knows it is F'n beer!

[sir_nj]

everyone knows it is F'n beer!

[oldboyonrgv]

Superbikes (sic) will go back to what they should be, proddy bikes run by dealer teams with a bit of backing. MOTOGP will go to a few factory teams running full spec MOTOGP prototypes, second tier will be last years factory bikes (customer) and then the CRT's, the CRT's will on occasion be able to mix with the customer bikes and with an up and coming superstar perhaps scare the factory boys. Customer bikes will do the same.

[phoenix1]

I think that is all reasonable conclusions. Seeing Effenburg out there has got to make any factory stop and think about whether investing in WSBK is worthwhile when a private team on a 5 year old bike shows podium potential with not 1 but 3 riders.

Here is where it gets interesting though.

We've heard about the fixed rev limit for a while, and we know that no one is satisfied (fans, organizers, teams, manufacturers) with the current hackneyed balancing job. We also know that Suzuki are growing tired of increasing performance, and Camier says they are already down on power compared to other teams. If WSBK agrees to a fixed rev limit, either in the rulebook or buried in homologation papers somewhere, it will probably have to be relatively modest (e.g. 13,000rpm). I mention the possible specifics of the rev limit b/c the 1199R has not been announced yet, and it is still theoretically possible that Ducati may return to 1000cc for competition.

Can't tell if it's lunacy or clairvoyance. The R/SPS variants have traditionally had a different engine, and Ducati do not want to balancing rules to govern the Panigale. Furthermore, Suzuki do not want to redesign the SBK engines ATM, neither do Honda or Kawasaki, though their engines are not uncompetitive right now. A relatively-low fixed rev limit could make a lot of people happy, including Dorna. I'm also curious whether Biaggi said the RSV4 was done in 2013, or the Aprilia factory team. Different scenarios, imo.

Anyway, if WSBK goes to a conservative rev limit, it may put a damper on CRT b/c underpowered engines like the Suzuki, Honda, and Kawasaki will not get the updates they need to be competitive in CRT trim. Engines may still be difficult for private race teams to obtain.

[Nachlauf]

Furthermore, Suzuki do not want to redesign the SBK engines ATM, neither do Honda or Kawasaki, though their engines are not uncompetitive right now.

Well, Kawasaki at least updated their engine lately as a reply to BMW's S1000RR. But once BMW figures out the software voodoo Suzuki and Honda will have to update too, because their engines are simply inferior. Well, or they could quit as Yamaha did.

For CRTs this doesn't have much relevance I believe. As long as there are companies building highly powered superbike engines CRTs will be fine. Dorna more or less made it clear already, that they will play with CRT rules to ensure their competitiveness.

[phoenix1]

Well, Kawasaki at least updated their engine lately as a reply to BMW's S1000RR. But once BMW figures out the software voodoo Suzuki and Honda will have to update too, because their engines are simply inferior. Well, or they could quit as Yamaha did.

For CRTs this doesn't have much relevance I believe. As long as there are companies building highly powered superbike engines CRTs will be fine. Dorna more or less made it clear already, that they will play with CRT rules to ensure their competitiveness.

It makes a big difference. Bikes with 74.5mm bore (Suzuki) or 76mm bore (Honda, Kawasaki) will not be competitive in GP competition with an 81mm bore limit or a high rev ceiling (in excess of 15,000rpm). Honestly, I have no idea why some of these guys are screwing around with Kawsaki engines, unless they can't get their hands on anything else. At least we know Gresini is being forced to use a Honda CRT.

For CRT, the teams need the narrow frontal area and respectable power of the ART, or they need the raw power of the BMW engine. If none of the SBK manufacturers are keen to update their engines, CRTs will continue to have limited options. A specialty engine is possible, but who knows how the MSMA will react.

[RatsMC]

A specialty engine is possible, but who knows how the MSMA will react.

This is exactly what I've been hoping the CRT concept would lead to - work out the bug in the chassis and electronics with a proddy motor then, when you've reached the limit of the motor (or what the factory will allow you to do) build a prototype. Personally, I think that if we've reached this imaginary point, the CRTs have proven themselves and Dorna will feel justified in moving forward.

[boson]

Well, Kawasaki at least updated their engine lately as a reply to BMW's S1000RR. But once BMW figures out the software voodoo Suzuki and Honda will have to update too, because their engines are simply inferior. Well, or they could quit as Yamaha did.

For CRTs this doesn't have much relevance I believe. As long as there are companies building highly powered superbike engines CRTs will be fine. Dorna more or less made it clear already, that they will play with CRT rules to ensure their competitiveness.

It makes a big difference. Bikes with 74.5mm bore (Suzuki) or 76mm bore (Honda, Kawasaki) will not be competitive in GP competition with an 81mm bore limit or a high rev ceiling (in excess of 15,000rpm). Honestly, I have no idea why some of these guys are screwing around with Kawsaki engines, unless they can't get their hands on anything else. At least we know Gresini is being forced to use a Honda CRT.

For CRT, the teams need the narrow frontal area and respectable power of the ART, or they need the raw power of the BMW engine. If none of the SBK manufacturers are keen to update their engines, CRTs will continue to have limited options. A specialty engine is possible, but who knows how the MSMA will react.

It depends how much they are allowed to monkey with the motors thought. I'm pretty sure the WCM team won't have had the same bore and stroke as an R1. Are they allowed to de-stroke and bore out the production motors a bit?

[RatsMC]

It depends how much they are allowed to monkey with the motors thought. I'm pretty sure the WCM team won't have had the same bore and stroke as an R1. Are they allowed to de-stroke and bore out the production motors a bit?

You mean the CRTs? They can do anything they want to with the motors as long as they don't go over an 81mm bore.

[Sloth27]

Edwards seems to be enjoying his new challenge with the CRT bike. At first I couldn't understand why at this stage in his career he would want to take on something like that when he could either retire or have one last crack at WSBK. But now I can see the fun in taking an absolute pile of shite (like the bike would've been at the first shakedown) and getting it to work. Edwards and DePuniet's times are actually looking a bit better than I expected, although not much can be said for the other CRTs.

[phoenix1]

A specialty engine is possible, but who knows how the MSMA will react.

This is exactly what I've been hoping the CRT concept would lead to - work out the bug in the chassis and electronics with a proddy motor then, when you've reached the limit of the motor (or what the factory will allow you to do) build a prototype. Personally, I think that if we've reached this imaginary point, the CRTs have proven themselves and Dorna will feel justified in moving forward.

The D16RR engine would make a great CRT engine, imo. However, as long as the formula stipulates 81mm, rather than a rev limit, the engine is not legal. I suppose a company like Ilmor could come to the rescue. They've got an engine design lying around somewhere, and they might be able to stroke it to 1000cc. Maybe re-sleeve and design a new cylinder head. I dunno, those kinds of mods cost money and create development work.

[boson]

A specialty engine is possible, but who knows how the MSMA will react.

This is exactly what I've been hoping the CRT concept would lead to - work out the bug in the chassis and electronics with a proddy motor then, when you've reached the limit of the motor (or what the factory will allow you to do) build a prototype. Personally, I think that if we've reached this imaginary point, the CRTs have proven themselves and Dorna will feel justified in moving forward.

The D16RR engine would make a great CRT engine, imo. However, as long as the formula stipulates 81mm, rather than a rev limit, the engine is not legal. I suppose a company like Ilmor could come to the rescue. They've got an engine design lying around somewhere, and they might be able to stroke it to 1000cc. Maybe re-sleeve and design a new cylinder head. I dunno, those kinds of mods cost money and create development work.

That plus we don't know how good the engine actually was!

[phoenix1]

That plus we don't know how good the engine actually was!

Ilmor have built F1 engines. They can exceed the design and performance of a WSBK production engine without any problem.

The question: What kind of private engine would fit CRT? Should companies like Oral and Ilmor lease full-prototype engines with pneumatic valves and all? Should they sell engines with less performance and let the privateers worry about development?

[Hansd]

That plus we don't know how good the engine actually was!

Ilmor have built F1 engines. They can exceed the design and performance of a WSBK production engine without any problem.

We all know Ilmor, but the point is that driving a motor bike is not just about raw top-end power (which I'm sure they can deliver). Power delivery is very important for a motor bike and different from cars. Tires and cornering are totally different between bikes and cars (for one there's much less tire surface), and the engine plays an important part in the handling of the bike. Hence a "good" F1 engine will not be a "good" WSBK engine.
Remember the "screamer" and "big bang" Motogp engines of the past that made all the difference. Also, when 990cc four strokes were introduced in Motogp, none of the factories used the full potential of these engines in terms of top end power. (Although later on Ducati was quite succesful for a while with brute power).

[TwoStroke Institute]

That plus we don't know how good the engine actually was!

Ilmor have built F1 engines. They can exceed the design and performance of a WSBK production engine without any problem.

The question: What kind of private engine would fit CRT? Should companies like Oral and Ilmor lease full-prototype engines with pneumatic valves and all? Should they sell engines with less performance and let the privateers worry about development?

Mario Illen admitted that MotoGP was much much harder(and expensive) then they ever anticipated. Every engine builder knows it is far harder to build an engine with a wide spread of power than a narrow band.Ironicaly Mario tried to convince everyone that his engine was still 'under development' (that's code for under a bench gathering dust) it was well made heaps of HP but was a complete dog.
What engine first you would have to decide if you wanted to race and finish or just burn millions of bux for the fun of it? Just a fast engine alone a good bike does not make, it has to be a package and now the package to have is Aprilia.

[boson]

That plus we don't know how good the engine actually was!

Ilmor have built F1 engines. They can exceed the design and performance of a WSBK production engine without any problem.

The question: What kind of private engine would fit CRT? Should companies like Oral and Ilmor lease full-prototype engines with pneumatic valves and all? Should they sell engines with less performance and let the privateers worry about development?

as proven with cosworth and the aprillia, a "good" bike engine is very different to a "good" F1 one, given that engine was essentially just 3 cylinders of a good F1 engine!
the only time I recall seeing an Ilmor on track was the tail end of '06 where it was hideously off the pace. Either it had a rubbish chassis or an unrideable motor. Or both!

[oldboyonrgv]

hmmm wasnt the rsv4 originaly supposed to be the motogp Aprillia? looks like it will soon be home, trust the Italians eh!!

[RatsMC]

the only time I recall seeing an Ilmor on track was the tail end of '06 where it was hideously off the pace. Either it had a rubbish chassis or an unrideable motor. Or both!

While hideously off-pace, it was ahead of some 990s (it was an 800) on track for a while there.