Stoner VS Rossi, the never ending debate

[Tourn46]

Pfft the poms will always have a joke towards us Aussies
they still cant get over the fact they sent or the criminals to Australia and left all the good folk in England
Got that one backwards in 1788

Explains why they say Stoner rides a bike as if he's stolen it I guess.

[eddahenry]

Pfft the poms will always have a joke towards us Aussies
they still cant get over the fact they sent or the criminals to Australia and left all the good folk in England
Got that one backwards in 1788

Explains why they say Stoner rides a bike as if he's stolen it I guess.

Ill pay that well done old chap

[tom]

But Stoner had it hard learning throttle control towing his Caravan. Rossi in the meantime rode around in luxury, learning his throttle control driving his supporters bandwagon. And everyone knows bandwagons are better than caravans!

[Tourn46]

I didn't have time to complete this up to Valencia... but this is compiled @ Phillip Island 2011...

Rossi
257 Races... won 41% of them and 68% (including wins) finished on the podium. 23% started on Pole.

Stoner
159 Races... won 24% of them and 48% (including wins) finished on the podium. 23% started on Pole.

Pedrosa
175 Races... won 22% of them and 55% (including wins) finished on the podium. 20% started on Pole.

Lorenzo
161 Races... won 24% of them and 51% (including wins) finished on the podium. 27% started on Pole.

[JanBros]

I didn't have time to complete this up to Valencia... but this is compiled @ Phillip Island 2011...

Rossi
257 Races... won 41% of them and 68% (including wins) finished on the podium. 23% started on Pole.

Stoner
159 Races... won 24% of them and 48% (including wins) finished on the podium. 23% started on Pole.

Pedrosa
175 Races... won 22% of them and 55% (including wins) finished on the podium. 20% started on Pole.

Lorenzo
161 Races... won 24% of them and 51% (including wins) finished on the podium. 27% started on Pole.

very nice statistics, but as always : you can proove anything with them.
they don't take into calculation some of the crap bikes Stoner had to ride. unlike Rossi/Lorenzo/Pedrosa : when did he get he's first factory bike ?

[Gustav O]

very nice statistics, but they don't take into calculation some of the crap bikes Stoner had to ride. unlike Rossi/Lorenzo/Pedrosa : when did he get he's first factory bike ?

But when are statistics ok to use? A lot of effort has been put in to statistics on this site to prove Stoners superior skills. Other statistics are very often countered by the superior/inferior machine argument. Rossi still rode those bikes to those wins.
Just curious and want to know what makes stats ok or not ok.

[Nachlauf]

Another interesting statistic: Races that both Rossi and Stoner started and finished, who beat whom how often? Stoner beat Rossi 46 times and Rossi beat Stoner 28 times.

But what is more interesting is, that at the end of 2009 when Rossi had won 2 championships both riders had beaten the other one 26 times if I didn't mess up my data. I raised my eyebrow when I looked at it, because considering the timeframe includes Stoner's rookie campaign and both of Rossi's 800 championships I didn't expect that.

PS: if I made a mistake please correct me.

[Tourn46]

I didn't have time to complete this up to Valencia... but this is compiled @ Phillip Island 2011...

Rossi
257 Races... won 41% of them and 68% (including wins) finished on the podium. 23% started on Pole.

Stoner
159 Races... won 24% of them and 48% (including wins) finished on the podium. 23% started on Pole.

Pedrosa
175 Races... won 22% of them and 55% (including wins) finished on the podium. 20% started on Pole.

Lorenzo
161 Races... won 24% of them and 51% (including wins) finished on the podium. 27% started on Pole.

very nice statistics, but as always : you can proove anything with them.
they don't take into calculation some of the crap bikes Stoner had to ride. unlike Rossi/Lorenzo/Pedrosa : when did he get he's first factory bike ?

I agree with you, I think it's clear that Stoner has to be on good machinery to win... just like any other rider.

[Tourn46]

Another interesting statistic: Races that both Rossi and Stoner started and finished, who beat whom how often? Stoner beat Rossi 46 times and Rossi beat Stoner 28 times.

But what is more interesting is, that at the end of 2009 when Rossi had won 2 championships both riders had beaten the other one 26 times if I didn't mess up my data. I raised my eyebrow when I looked at it, because considering the timeframe includes Stoner's rookie campaign and both of Rossi's 800 championships I didn't expect that.

PS: if I made a mistake please correct me.

What makes that data even more confusing is that only once between 2006 and 2010 did Stoner finish ahead of Rossi in the championship. This isn't meant to be funny and it's not in reference to the Stoner = Crasher shite... but do those statistics include DNF's?

Either that or 2007 was such an anomaly, it's completely distorted all statistics!

[Nachlauf]

Another interesting statistic: Races that both Rossi and Stoner started and finished, who beat whom how often? Stoner beat Rossi 46 times and Rossi beat Stoner 28 times.

But what is more interesting is, that at the end of 2009 when Rossi had won 2 championships both riders had beaten the other one 26 times if I didn't mess up my data. I raised my eyebrow when I looked at it, because considering the timeframe includes Stoner's rookie campaign and both of Rossi's 800 championships I didn't expect that.

PS: if I made a mistake please correct me.

What makes that data even more confusing is that only once between 2006 and 2010 did Stoner finish ahead of Rossi in the championship. This isn't meant to be funny and it's not in reference to the Stoner = Crasher shite... but do those statistics include DNF's?

Either that or 2007 was such an anomaly, it's completely distorted all statistics!

Nonono, you can't conclude it that way. My statistic ignores all races where one or both didn't start and/or didn't finish. It also doesn't qualify for points comparison, because it doesn't make a difference between a race where they finished 1st and 15th and another race where they finished 6th and 8th.

That raises another question though. How often did they finish without anyone between them and who has the upper hand there? That somebody else has to do though, because it's already 3 bottles after after beer o'clock for me.

[Gustav O]

Nonono, you can't conclude it that way. My statistic ignores all races where one or both didn't start and/or didn't finish. It also doesn't qualify for points comparison, because it doesn't make a difference between a race where they finished 1st and 15th and another race where they finished 6th and 8th.

That raises another question though. How often did they finish without anyone between them and who has the upper hand there? That somebody else has to do though, because it's already 3 bottles after after beer o'clock for me.

Why don´t cout the races were one crashes? Crashes are part of the racing.

[Tourn46]

Nonono, you can't conclude it that way. My statistic ignores all races where one or both didn't start and/or didn't finish. It also doesn't qualify for points comparison, because it doesn't make a difference between a race where they finished 1st and 15th and another race where they finished 6th and 8th.

That raises another question though. How often did they finish without anyone between them and who has the upper hand there? That somebody else has to do though, because it's already 3 bottles after after beer o'clock for me.

I think it needs to include all races in which the both started... meaning those where one finished without the other. It's not Rossi or Stoner's fault the other one didn't finish. Rossi has a low DNF rate across his career and I would personally say it's unfair to penalise this in the statistics by ignoring the races he completed when Stoner didn't (and of course those occasions Stoner finished and Rossi didn't).

That's just my opinion though.

I can maybe have a look at it at some point once this week is out of the way (first week on the month is always a no no for me)... a while ago I did promise to do some statistics (unfortunately it's my job so I tend to avoid it outside work hours, but this seems like fun)

[Nachlauf]

Why don´t cout the races were one crashes? Crashes are part of the racing.

Well, because that leads to the question of "where would he have finished had he not crashed" or the other way around. It also leads to the question "why did he DNF" which in some cases can be tricky, i.e. Jerez 2011 for example. Also as is known from another statistic thread Stoner and Rossi had the same number of DNFs at least during the 800 era if I remember correctly. Nobody can realistically say how they would have finished had they not crashed. There could have happened all sorts of things. It's all a hypothetical thing. So I only compared the races they both finished. If you only care about actual results then the official points tables are sufficient.

[Albert]

Fuck hey, I haven't really ranted like this in a long time.. but that's pretty much the crux of it.

Wow! Consider that Spleen to be well and truly vented!
We should hear no more bitching for the rest of the year now that you've got that out of your system!

(and thank fu*k that Mick created this thread to enable it to happen huh!)

[The Pundit]

I didn't have time to complete this up to Valencia... but this is compiled @ Phillip Island 2011...

Rossi
257 Races... won 41% of them and 68% (including wins) finished on the podium. 23% started on Pole.

Stoner
159 Races... won 24% of them and 48% (including wins) finished on the podium. 23% started on Pole.

Pedrosa
175 Races... won 22% of them and 55% (including wins) finished on the podium. 20% started on Pole.

Lorenzo
161 Races... won 24% of them and 51% (including wins) finished on the podium. 27% started on Pole.

This is total bullsh1t.
Only head to head stats should count here. Why not add in all Stoner's dirt track race results as well then? It would make as much sense.


~ The Pundit

[yzr750]

It's not Rossi or Stoner's fault the other one didn't finish.

Cough....Jerez......

[TheFamousEccles]

Pfft the poms will always have a joke towards us Aussies
they still cant get over the fact they sent or the criminals to Australia and left all the good folk in England
Got that one backwards in 1788

Explains why they say Stoner rides a bike as if he's stolen it I guess.

Boom boom!

[Tourn46]

This is total bullsh1t.
Only head to head stats should count here. Why not add in all Stoner's dirt track race results as well then? It would make as much sense.


~ The Pundit

I would say that a riders GP career as a whole is totally relevant as an aspect of comparison.

I am sure we won't stop counting Stoner's statistics the day Rossi retires... Rossi will continue to be the benchmark after he retires in which modern riders want to match... just like Ago is the benchmark Rossi has been trying to match.

Like it or not, Rossi has had an phenomenal career and if any of these current guys want to match it, they have to significantly up their game.

[Squidpuppet]

. It's not Rossi or Stoner's fault the other one didn't finish.

Sometimes it is.

[Squidpuppet]

[Like it or not, Rossi has had an phenomenal career and if any of these current guys want to match it, they have to significantly up their game.

They dont need to up their game, as they are already beating Rossi. In order to match it, they just need to be in the game as long as Rossi Has been.

[eddahenry]

[Like it or not, Rossi has had an phenomenal career and if any of these current guys want to match it, they have to significantly up their game.

They dont need to up their game, as they are already beating Rossi. In order to match it, they just need to be in the game as long as Rossi Has been.

IMO I fell the one who could do it won't be around long enough to do so .
I think Casey has this year and maybe 2 more and than he will leave. He is already working hard on his karting getting ready for his next go fast challenge (4wheels) when he gets board with 2 he will just leave.

[motogpmd]

Like it or not, Rossi has had an phenomenal career and if any of these current guys want to match it, they have to significantly up their game.

Well no, can't agree that they need to significantly up their games, especially Stoner and Lorenzo. Remember that Stoner, Pedrosa and Lorenzo have had to compete head to head with Rossi their entire MotoGP careers. Now who did Rossi have to compete against up to 2006? There was no-one at his level, Doohan was long gone. Plus, Rossi had the very best machinery and tires available from his rookie year up to 2004. That was certainly not true of Stoner, who started with LCR, and then spent four years with Ducati, the bike that Rossi never came close to winning on.

If it had been Stoner or Lorenzo instead of Rossi in the period up to 2006 I have no doubt they would have dominated just as much as Rossi did.

So much in history is about someone being in the right place at the right time. This is certainly true of Rossi. Even Wayne Rainey has made a similar comment. This not to deny that Rossi is a great rider. Even looking at just his stats from the 800 era still shows that he is a great rider. But take away the early period of his 500/MotoGP career, when he had weaker competition and the best equipment, and no-on would be talking about Rossi as the GOAT.

The only truly relevant comparison is the 800 era, when the four in question were all on works bikes. Only Lorenzo is at a disadvantage because he started late. In that period Stoner has by far the best stats, winning almost 50% more races than Rossi, and winning world championships on two very different bikes. Rossi on the other hand, won his two championships on the 08/09 Yamaha, a bike regarded by Wayne Rainey and Eddie Lawson as the finest GP bike ever built. For the 800 era it is Game, Set and Match to Stoner.

[Rick650]

There a some interesting comments in the Sepang 2 thread on the main site regarding the difference in riding styles.
Two follow
Submitted by Auskid27 on Mon, 2012-03-05 04:42.
David, I'd love to see simple direct comparison regarding rider positions when entering a corner on the Ducati.
1. Stoner was a very good flat track racer as a youngster, he moves the top half of his body (shoulders/head) to the inside of the bike fractionally prior to his lower half (weighting the front end to the inside slightly sooner and further forward, giving him a little more front end bias to the INSIDE).
2. Rossi, like most of the Europeans starts moving his weight to the inside beginning with his hips (classic road racer). Meaning that Rossi needs a bike with more front end bias and why he can't warm the tyres as quickly or as much as Stoner.
We all know that the Duke has the longest motor, meaning the centre of gravity has to be further back, leading to issues for all other riders.
If its possible, would you post a video of both riders entering the same corner and it will demonstrate what I'm talking about.
It leads to the question 'can the bike be fixed for other riders?'. In my opinon, only if they shorten the engine... that's less than a 90 degree V. Or they take speedway lessons.
Do I think Rossi is a not the rider he was? Not a chance, the man is a truly great champion!!!
reply
Submitted by David Emmett on Mon, 2012-03-05 10:52.
Unfortunately, I am unable to post any video comparing riding styles, due to licensing and accreditation issues. But I think your analysis is essentially correct. Stoner has a rather odd riding style, where he uses his weight almost independently of the bike, whilst Rossi uses his weight to manage the bike, relying on the front end more than the Ducati allows.

[JanBros]

But when are statistics ok to use?

it's always ok to use statistics to prove your point

but the simple fact is : someone else can come up with another statistic that oposes the first one, and both can evenly be true. As shown in this discussion

Tourn's statistics clearly show Rossi is the better rideer, while the HRC-statistics give the advantage to Stoner. So who is ?

it's like Schumacher-Senna : who is the best ? Schumi clearly won more, but he was lucky he is/was alive troughout he's whole career. Senna was a bit unlucky in that departement and was dead for a part of his career...

[Tourn46]

Now who did Rossi have to compete against up to 2006? There was no-one at his level, Doohan was long gone.

This is a separate debate in itself. My opinion differs to your opinion.

The statistics I posted weren't really meant as a direct comparison as it's been taken (perhaps people just don't like to see stuff that shows Rossi in a good light?)...

In saying that the others need to raise there game, it was in regards to matching Rossi's career figures, I believe that these figures are the benchmark that the riders will aspire to beat, now and in the future - afterall, when the dust settles on their careers, that's what people will see in the history books.
Agostini of course has won more, but it was different back then, people in multiple classes, etc... which is why I think Rossi will be the relevant 'great' that people want to beat.

It wasn't a comment made in regards to their talent and I apologise if it came across that way... I would say that Lorenzo has the potential and the time to do this however, I can't see Pedrosa or Stoner getting close.

I won't argue on the statistics of the 800cc era as they are what they are, statistically he was the best rider... But at the end of the day, Stoner only won 2 titles, the same number as Rossi.

What frustrates me about Stoner is that in his 2 championship years, he was sublime... can't fault him. However, I just NEED to see him produce this over a sustained period of time... 2 brilliant years in 10 years of GP racing isn't enough for me. Out of 15 years, Rossi has only had 2/3 stinkers?
This is the difference, to be a great, you need to be there or there abouts, year in, year out... until Stoner can prove this, then I can't consider him as being above the other guys.

For me, the outstanding talent at this moment in time on the grid is Lorenzo and I think he is the guy to dominate over the next period in MotoGP.