Ducati goings on. Part 2.

[Oscar]

Note to moderators: this thread appears to have gone the way of the previous Ducati thread and - despite Mick's best efforts - has returned to the Stoner-Rossi sniping that turned the first one into crap. Time to shut it down and ban all further references to anything relating to Ducati, Stoner or Rossi?

[Rossifumi]

Note to moderators: this thread appears to have gone the way of the previous Ducati thread and - despite Mick's best efforts - has returned to the Stoner-Rossi sniping that turned the first one into crap. Time to shut it down and ban all further references to anything relating to Ducati, Stoner or Rossi?

you are joking? no mention of Ducati, Stoner or Rossi on a motorcycle racing discussion forum!!!!
And are you referring to me? you think saying that Ducati has gone backwards compared to the competition since 2007 is 'sniping'?

[JanBros]

it's been ages since someone posted "news" about what is going at at Ducati.

instead, it is again more of the same old news : Ducat this in 2007 an Stoner that and Bridgestone spec this versus Michelin that, ...

I'd say : if it 's not "news" about Ducati, stick it in the Stoner vs Rossi topic

[Rossifumi]

isn't the main page for news? I thought this was a discussion forum

[Tourn46]

Note to moderators: this thread appears to have gone the way of the previous Ducati thread and - despite Mick's best efforts - has returned to the Stoner-Rossi sniping that turned the first one into crap. Time to shut it down and ban all further references to anything relating to Ducati, Stoner or Rossi?

Rather than shut down a thread, wouldnt it be easier for people to just accept that people have different opinions? Just because you don't like the opinion doesn't make it a snipe.
I think people need to get a grip... if you don't like something, then give your thoughts or ignore it. It's pretty simple... there may be the odd handbag (or piece of luggage?) thrown between the bandwagon and the caravan club... but that's normal in sport. Isn't it a beautiful thing how sport can raise such emotion?
If you don't want to read what others think, then why the hell join a public forum? I think people just need to grow a pair and get on with it.

Anyway... to offer a change in direction...

What is people's opinion on the belief that Rossi/Hayden will find suffcient performance to distinguish themselves above the Ducati GP0?

It's quite an unusual scenario to see a single manufacturer fielding 2 different machines and despite the 'Alien' factor with Rossi, this will probably provide a good basis to evaluate the of progression by Ducati rather than the comparison against the Japanese factories with a new formula starting as we don't know the true differences in comparison to what we saw in 2011.

[Faster1]

Levity ! ! !
open your browser all the way ,, there are 4... Forget what they're selling ,, it's just Racing art,, or does it make you want to smoke.

[Tourn46]

Levity ! ! !
open your browser all the way ,, there are 4... Forget what they're selling ,, it's just Racing art,, or does it make you want to smoke.

My lungs feel heavy just looking at it.

[Oscar]

Tourn46, Ducati Goings on. Pt.2., page 63:

I know I sound like a broken record, but can't you make a thread where this is relevant so I don't have to wade through page after page of guff to read about what I am interested in - ie, Ducati goings on!

Tourn46, Ducati Goings on. Pt. 2, page 68:

If you don't want to read what others think, then why the hell join a public forum? I think people just need to grow a pair and get on with it.

[Squidpuppet]

Tourn46, Ducati Goings on. Pt.2., page 63:

I know I sound like a broken record, but can't you make a thread where this is relevant so I don't have to wade through page after page of guff to read about what I am interested in - ie, Ducati goings on!

Tourn46, Ducati Goings on. Pt. 2, page 68:

If you don't want to read what others think, then why the hell join a public forum? I think people just need to grow a pair and get on with it.

[Tourn46]

Tourn46, Ducati Goings on. Pt.2., page 63:

I know I sound like a broken record, but can't you make a thread where this is relevant so I don't have to wade through page after page of guff to read about what I am interested in - ie, Ducati goings on!

Tourn46, Ducati Goings on. Pt. 2, page 68:

If you don't want to read what others think, then why the hell join a public forum? I think people just need to grow a pair and get on with it.

...that is 2 totally different subjects my friend

[Japhrodisiac]

I think the lack of racing is adding to the general grumpiness around here - everyone is waiting for a round or 2 to prove that what they have been writing about all winter right! (or not...)

As the original starter of the Ducati Goings On thread, I think that the story as played out so far is fascinating, and many times irritating to watch too! I had no idea just over a year ago that Ducati would have such struggles, that Rossi would (through no fault of his own mostly) fall so far, so fast. That Stoner's vindication through the Ducati story, and it's subsequent chapter for him, at Honda , would prove both so dominating and divisive.

I think (and hope) that when the racing starts in earnest, the thread will return to the unravelling of the Ducati mystery, as there is so much left to find out about :
- Rossi and JB, will they win even a single race on the thing?
- The GPzero vs the GP12 (technical development)
- The status of Ducati's satellite program riders vs the factory team
- the possible sale of Ducati to Volks/Audi and it's repercussions on the spendy Ducati MotoGp program as a whole
- the possibility of Ducati following Aprilia's lead with an in-house CRT effort
- and so much more to talk about

No need to close this thread with the most interesting chapters to come, just remember why we are here to begin with - a superior place with knowledgeble folks with whom to disagree with

[motomania]

Tourn46, Ducati Goings on. Pt.2., page 63:

I know I sound like a broken record, but can't you make a thread where this is relevant so I don't have to wade through page after page of guff to read about what I am interested in - ie, Ducati goings on!

Tourn46, Ducati Goings on. Pt. 2, page 68:

If you don't want to read what others think, then why the hell join a public forum? I think people just need to grow a pair and get on with it.

Unfortunately, it's not a pair that's needed here like you assume. You've got the wrong body parts, this one requires thought and the area you suggested isn't well known for the ultimate in smart decisions. You holler because the Ducati topic isn't what YOU want yet you're one of the worst for causing it to continuously come back to the Rossi/Stoner battle.

I, like many others joined THIS forum because as it says on the header of this page "INTELLIGENT DEBATE ABOUT MOTORCYCLE RACING". I didn't join to debate who thinks they've got the largest set and can out bullshit/frustrate another member of the forum or argue about who the best rider is, etc. based on emotional statements. I joined and have enjoyed, till somewhat recently, the fact that this place was first and foremost about first rate discussions, conversations and admiration for the many things relating to motorcycle racing. This place has gained a reputation as one of the best MotoGP sites on the net. However, recently the behavior and tone that sets this place apart from others has slipped a bit. And of course I'm speaking of the forum side and not the main website. I think most everyone understands what I mean.

A couple quick comments/suggestions :

NO personal attacks, against any forum member, rider, crew member, etc. Quite simply, that's not what this forum is all about.

I've seen a few comments to the effect of "I read, saw, posted such and such type of comment on another forum" so it should be ok here. Just because there's a big twisted argument on racejerks.org doesn't mean we need to know or have that some discussion here. That also means that just because some one on racejerks.org posted a certain comment, etc. that it's fit for here.

At least for me, that's the best part of this forum, that's how it's different from all the other forums!! (fora?) I've spent years having to sift through tons of posts on forums to get rid of the over zealous fanboi BS, I-can-disturb-any-place-buttheads, and all the rest of it to actually find 10-20% decent content. That's what is different about MTM, why I and many others have enjoyed it for the last few years. When MTM is "normal" (my view there) there's very little crap to wade through, maybe a few percent. I'd like to hope that we can get back to that and keep it going that way, instead of being closer to 25%+ garbage rate that seems to have crept in the last few months. I've been around BBS/Forums for over 25 years, the best around have pretty much been moderated by the group themselves.

I'd like to invite all of those that think they need to prove their rider is absolutely best and all other riders are assholes, or that one bike brand, etc. are the only one and everyone else is crap to find another forum. I'd rather not read that here, please take it somewhere else. I'm all for open debate and discussion but that can be done without destroying the reputation and character of other members, riders, teams, team members, etc.

The last but most important suggestion is to use the preview button and not only look over your post for the usual typos and such but also read it and think about what it says. Put yourself on the receiving end of the post. If you were the person with the opposing position on the topic you're posting to, would it seem like this post is trying to prove points or does it seem somewhat venomous and aggressive? There's plenty of room for vivid discussion without it becoming cut-throat warfare. If one of your comments proves nothing but is there simply to provoke someone or get a certain response, please delete that portion. Perceive, take in and see the post from all sides, what others will think. It's actually quite simple P-P-P : Preview, Perceive and Post. BTW, I think this is advice that all of us should take, including myself. Review and THINK about your post. There hasn't been anybody on this forum that posts messages that hasn't had one go through that they wished later had been worded a bit different or not even said. We've all had them, we've all seen them.

Preview - Perceive - Post. Make a point, not an enemy.

None of the above comments, beliefs or thoughts belong to any one but MotoMania. I take sole responsibility for what's been said. I'm sure the powers that be will weigh in with their own thoughts as they see fit. If you have problems with what I've said and can respond without attacking, please feel free to do so here. Otherwise, please leave the crap off the forum and send me a PM so others don't have to read the junk. Thanks!

Added: Well said Japhrodisiac, I hope it doesn't get closed either. Any further Stoner/Rossi debate could go to Stoner VS Rossi, the never ending debate though, where it belongs. Please.

[lebowski]

^ +1

[Oscar]

I, like many others joined THIS forum because as it says on the header of this page "INTELLIGENT DEBATE ABOUT MOTORCYCLE RACING"

Mick - eloquently said. I was away for a couple of weeks playing with non-motorcycling stuff, happy in the thought that the 'Rossi-Stoner' thread would allow the cage-fighters space to get it out of their system, returned, and caught up on the Ducati thread all in one go - and nearly threw up. I've noted a disturbing tendency for the MCN rider-wallopers to come onto the main page comments threads and continue their shit-flinging efforts here - taking far too much of David's time to moderate - but (with the one glaring exception of that dolt who called Albert 'no fan of Rossi'), the forum has generally been blessed with a very low level of that crap - able to be overlooked in the same way as one tells the irritating drunk at the party who continues to shout his mouth off and interrupt everybody to STFU and gets on with pleasant chatting.

This has been an outstandingly informative thread until recently, with some great technical stuff coming through, and also some wry humour to savor. If it's going to continue on the same downward spiral as the first Ducati thread and become nowt more than another midden on the plain of the eternal debate about riders, I for one vote for merciful termination.

[ducati1098s]

Note to moderators: this thread appears to have gone the way of the previous Ducati thread and - despite Mick's best efforts - has returned to the Stoner-Rossi sniping that turned the first one into crap. Time to shut it down and ban all further references to anything relating to Ducati, Stoner or Rossi?

Sorry Oscar- bur what crap and what gives you the mandate to call for a thread to be shut down? Maybe you didn't intend for it to read that way but it makes you sound like a condescending Stoner fan, with an agenda.

Whether people like it or not (antipodeans mainly) there are particular and relevant factors to consider in assessing where Ducati are (or were in 2011) in performance terms and addressing the argument as to whether the Duc is/was a fundamentally flawed motorcycle. Some Stoner fans love to assert that their man has shown that the Duc is a race winning bike and therefore Rossi should just man up and win on it too if he is truly worthy of his GOAT 9 WC status. Most of Stoners wins on the Desmo came in 2007 but is that a representative year? What would Stoner have achieved in 2011? A WC? definitely not IMHO. Of course he would have done better than Rossi did but then he has a completely different skill set when it comes to overpowering a vague front end by sliding the bike in (as per Valencia). This kind of analysis and references to Stoner repeatedly falling off are always going to creep in to this discussion and in my view rightly so as there is a fundamental question at the heart of this thread that inevitably invites CS and VR's performance comparisons on the bike- was it/is it a great bike that just needs a great rider or a turd that some have been better at polishing than others?

Im not advocating alot of this type of discussion because I agree that there is a better place for it, but come on guys.........

[Tourn46]

@Motomania...

I am sorry that you feel my posts come across that way. Personally I feel that regardless of what I type it gets viewed upon that I am making digs... it's not the case. If I was sat saying "this rider is a twat"... then fair enough, but I don't.

I think I can justify this in that I had people jump on me for merely saying after Sepang 1 that there were as many people trying to dismiss Ducati's efforts over winter as there were people getting over excited... I don't understand how that can be perceived as having hidden meaning, but it was taken offensively.

I don't want to cause arguments, I don't particularly want to ruffle any feathers, but I'm not going to stop giving my opinion and why should I? As long as it is in context with the conversation then I do think people need to learn to accept that some people see things differently - which is all I was referring to with "growing a pair", I wasn't suggesting that people need to argue back.

I made a comment in this thread recently, when read back, yes it looked very bad... I returned to explain my comment and then made an apology... what more am I supposed to do?

[chc-pr]

All very interesting, but completely irrelevant to my question - unless you think that the non-branded Marlboro Ducati has such strong associations that it yields that sort of growth. I showed the pics of the bikes to my wife and asked her who the sponsors were. Marlboro was never even thought of and she KNOWS that they were a past sponsor!

I think the question someone else asked is relevant though - can they do advertising with the Logos on board in the emerging markets? If so, then there is some benefit. If not, my original assertion remains.

Seriously, if you think there is any value please tell me where!

2010
said Louis Camilleri, chief executive, in the earnings report. “We surpassed our earnings per share and cash flow targets by a comfortable margin and . . .grew our global market share for the third year in succession, driven by the improved performance of our flagship brand, Marlboro.”

2011
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-2 ... -asia.html

Philip Morris Profit Tops Estimates on Cigarette Prices

Philip Morris International Inc. (PM), the world’s largest publicly traded tobacco company, reported third-quarter profit that topped analysts’ estimates, helped by higher shipments and increased cigarette prices in Asia.
Net income rose 30 percent to $2.38 billion, or $1.35 a share, from $1.82 billion, or 99 cents, a year earlier, the New York-based maker of Marlboro cigarettes said in a statement. Excluding some items, profit was $1.37 a share, beating the $1.24 average of 14 analysts’ estimates compiled by Bloomberg.
Chief Executive Officer Louis Camilleri raised prices in Japan, Australia and Indonesia, where demand pushed total shipments higher by 4.4 percent. Excluding excise taxes, total sales at Philip Morris, which generates all of its revenue outside the U.S., advanced 26 percent to $8.36 billion.
“Aided by Asia and the emerging markets, shipments were good, and they’re not having any problem getting price increases,” Jack Russo, an analyst at Edward Jones & Co. in St. Louis, said today in an interview. He rates the shares as “buy.” “They blew by the consensus pretty easily.”
The company raised the low end of its 2011 profit forecast by 5 cents to $4.75 a share, and left unchanged the high end of $4.80. Analysts projected $4.74, the average of 16 estimates.
Philip Morris rose 3.3 percent to $68.19 at 4 p.m. in New York. The shares have climbed 17 percent this year.
Most Profitable
Lorillard Inc. (LO), the third-largest U.S. cigarette maker, is scheduled to release its results on Oct. 24, followed by Reynolds American Inc. (RAI), the second-biggest, on Oct. 25 and Altria Group Inc. (MO), the largest, on Oct. 27.
Philip Morris is the second most profitable company in the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index, after Linear Technology Corp. (LLTC), according to earnings rankings compiled by Bloomberg through Oct. 18. The analysis gave equal weight to five variables, including profit margin and return on invested capital. Lorillard, based in Greensboro, North Carolina, ranked 10th.

[Desmo44]

To get back on subject, what exactly is the cost for Ducati to reduce the V angle in engineering terms (not marketing). I'm no engineer, but my feeble understanding is that the 90 degree arrangement is more balanced and that closing the angle causes more imbalance and the need for counter balance measures. Just how much power is lost with counter balancing? I can't imagine that it would be all that much. Are there other considerations that I'm missing (other than marketing or tradition) that affect the narrowing of the V angle? Does the desmodromic valve complicate counterbalancing in any way?

Or is it just marketing and tradition?

[ducati1098s]

Am I right in assuming that a closer V would enable the engine to come further forward which would then enable a longer swingarm? If all of that is true then you get a double whammy benefit: better loaded front end and better rear traction. No?

[Desmo44]

Am I right in assuming that a closer V would enable the engine to come further forward which would then enable a longer swingarm? If all of that is true then you get a double whammy benefit: better loaded front end and better rear traction. No?

It's obvious that it would provide more options in chassis tuning. My question is what's the hold up? Sure it's a major redesign of the engine, but that can't be more difficult in time or expense than all the fruitless changes they have made so far.

[Gustav O]

The smaller teh angle of the V the more problems you get with air intake as you have to compromise the intake angles etc. Suzuki opened up their 990cc GSV-R as they had to get more power, can´t remember the degress but maybe from like 60 degress to 72.

[ducati1098s]

Yet the RSV4 lump is a 65 degree V4 which seems to be the most powerful engine on the whole of the WSB grid

[Gustav O]

Yet the RSV4 lump is a 65 degree V4 which seems to be the most powerful engine on the whole of the WSB grid

I might be wrong but that is what I have understood.

[Rossifumi]

To get back on subject, what exactly is the cost for Ducati to reduce the V angle in engineering terms (not marketing). I'm no engineer, but my feeble understanding is that the 90 degree arrangement is more balanced and that closing the angle causes more imbalance and the need for counter balance measures. Just how much power is lost with counter balancing? I can't imagine that it would be all that much. Are there other considerations that I'm missing (other than marketing or tradition) that affect the narrowing of the V angle? Does the desmodromic valve complicate counterbalancing in any way?

Or is it just marketing and tradition?

my understanding is that the L configuration was introduced to aid cooling in the days of air-cooled engines - the front cylinder not blocking the air-flow to the rear cylinder. Not really an answer as to why they don't close the V angle now but that's my understanding of why the V/L was 90 degrees to begin with.

[Rossifumi]

All very interesting, but completely irrelevant to my question - unless you think that the non-branded Marlboro Ducati has such strong associations that it yields that sort of growth. I showed the pics of the bikes to my wife and asked her who the sponsors were. Marlboro was never even thought of and she KNOWS that they were a past sponsor!

you sample size of n=1 is hardly significant and your wife probably doesn't fall in to the intended target audience of a campaign aligning itself with motorsports (yes I know women follow motorsports too but if you're trying to target a female audience motorsports would not be the first port of call). Philip Morris' marketing strategy is clearly working and as I said before, there are limited options for promotion of cigarettes so to completely rule out the sponsorship of Ferrari and Ducati as having no effect would seem unlikely.