Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class

Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Squidpuppet on Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:14 pm

Desmo44 wrote:To get back on subject, what exactly is the cost for Ducati to reduce the V angle in engineering terms (not marketing). I'm no engineer, but my feeble understanding is that the 90 degree arrangement is more balanced and that closing the angle causes more imbalance and the need for counter balance measures. Just how much power is lost with counter balancing? I can't imagine that it would be all that much. Are there other considerations that I'm missing (other than marketing or tradition) that affect the narrowing of the V angle? Does the desmodromic valve complicate counterbalancing in any way?

Or is it just marketing and tradition?


They have abandoned the "twin" heritage, the steel trellis frame, and the single sided swingarm in an effort to be competitive in MotoGP. All of those were signature Ducati character traits. So my guess would be that its something other than tradition. Then again, who know, maybe they are clinging to it as the final connection to their roots. That would be darn stuborn and foolish though IMO.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Squidpuppet on Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:30 pm

Rossifumi wrote:[
you sample size of n=1 is hardly significant and your wife probably doesn't fall in to the intended target audience of a campaign aligning itself with motorsports (yes I know women follow motorsports too but if you're trying to target a female audience motorsports would not be the first port of call). Philip Morris' marketing strategy is clearly working and as I said before, there are limited options for promotion of cigarettes so to completely rule out the sponsorship of Ferrari and Ducati as having no effect would seem unlikely.


The numbers that you provided indicate growth. The growth isnt necessarily derived from improved marketing though. The report actually attributes much of the revenue growth to their ability to raise prices in certain markets without hurting demand. Not hard when you are a drug dealer. :( I dont think we can get any true understanding of how effective their MotoGP/F1 sponsorship is towards their sales from that report.

We all automatically associate Ducati with Marlboro because we have been following this sport in great detail for a very long time. But what about fans that have arrived in the last five years or so? The bikes/leathers/uniforms/hospitality havent had even an vague visible association to the brand for a long time. Are those newcomers even exposed to the brand, even subconciously, at all?
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby motomania on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:25 pm

Tourn46 wrote:I made a comment in this thread recently, when read back, yes it looked very bad... I returned to explain my comment and then made an apology... what more am I supposed to do?

And I commend you for that. The explanation looked much better than the first version, by a long ways. That was exactly why my original response was to use the preview button. I've backed you for some of your comments in the past as well as called you out for this recent one. Believe it or not my last post wasn't intended just at you, although I know you feel it was. After the first paragraph most of it is in a general/group sense of discussion. There's a reason I bolded "this is advice that all of us should take".

There's a reason that ALL of us are here and that's because of our passion for motorcycle racing. With passion, there's naturally going to be emotion and that's not necessarily bad. At least not till the emotion overrides our logic and common sense.

What I'm asking everyone to do is simple. When you write up a post, review it and make sure that if you were on the receiving end of it, would you feel like you were being attacked or does it come across as a point in a debate? Damn simple thing to do. The line between the two usually isn't a fine one and one is quite easily distinguishable from the other.

I don't expect or want anyone to stop posting due to my opinion. I do hope that all will take that extra minute it takes to review what we've written before hitting that submit key.

Am I going to stop making comments on posts that I think go too far? Nope, can't promise that. I'll promise that at the very least I'll being clicking on that little triangle with the red exclamation point that's on the top center-right border of every post so that one of the mods/Krop takes a look to give their view on whether the post is up to the MTM standard or not.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby motomania on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:28 pm

As for the discussion about the Ducati motor and whether the V/L type could be the issue. I've said it on here several times that I felt that the L was the problem. Quite simply it spreads the weight of the motor over a longer span which thus makes it more difficult to adjust the weight in the chassis to get the front/rear balance as wanted. It seems to take too much of the length away from other crucial parts such as swing arm length, etc. The twins spar frame sure hasn't seemed to make the difference, I'd hoped it might but now makes me wonder if the L isn't the culprit.

Like Desmo44 I just wonder what the holdup is. I really expected that with the twin spar frame would come as an actual V layout vs the L of before, even 75 degrees or so. Just compact it some. I don't think they'll get it truly sorted till they address that issue. My opinion is based simply on what I see and what makes sense to my non-mechanical/engineering mind. For me, it's pretty simple math and logic which is probably why it's wrong.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby chc-pr on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:21 pm

Squidpuppet wrote:
Rossifumi wrote:you sample size of n=1 is hardly significant and your wife probably doesn't fall in to the intended target audience of a campaign aligning itself with motorsports (yes I know women follow motorsports too but if you're trying to target a female audience motorsports would not be the first port of call). Philip Morris' marketing strategy is clearly working and as I said before, there are limited options for promotion of cigarettes so to completely rule out the sponsorship of Ferrari and Ducati as having no effect would seem unlikely.


The numbers that you provided indicate growth. The growth isnt necessarily derived from improved marketing though. The report actually attributes much of the revenue growth to their ability to raise prices in certain markets without hurting demand. Not hard when you are a drug dealer. :( I dont think we can get any true understanding of how effective their MotoGP/F1 sponsorship is towards their sales from that report.

We all automatically associate Ducati with Marlboro because we have been following this sport in great detail for a very long time. But what about fans that have arrived in the last five years or so? The bikes/leathers/uniforms/hospitality havent had even an vague visible association to the brand for a long time. Are those newcomers even exposed to the brand, even subconciously, at all?


Thank you Squiddy - that is exactly the point. Rossifumi, your assertion that my sample size of 1 is not sufficient is also true, but I am willing to bet that it is closer to valid than your assertion that Marlboro's sales increases are down to some somewhat tenuious subliminal link between Marlboro colours and their packets when no overt cross reference is evident AT ALL.

If you want, I will do a mixed gender convenience sample with a properly prepared survey if you like. Do you want to do this properly and specify some sort of quota profile too? I can only manage my local area for now - but if you wait until July August I can extend it to Australia if you like.

I am not trying to be 'smart' about this, I am serious. I am so confident I am prepared to put this to the test if you want to agree here in public an agreed methodology and questions. You can do some at your location too and if others are willing to chip in maybe we can get a proper objective take on this. The more I think of this the more I want to do it in fact. All it requires is that everyone do it the same way and collate the results the same way.

I used to work for a market research Co when I was studying at Uni as a part time job so I have a little experience I can contribute. Tourn is a Statistician so he can probably cast his eye over it too (and I teach stats so I have some idea too).

Who is up for this?
Last edited by chc-pr on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Squidpuppet on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:32 pm

chc-pr wrote:[Thank you Squiddy - that is exactly the point. Rossifumi, your assertion that my sample size of 1 is not sufficient is also true, but I am willing to bet that it is closer to valid than your assertion that Marlboro's sales increases are down to some somewhat tenuious subliminal link between Marlboro colours and their packets when no overt cross reference is evident AT ALL.

If you want, I will do a mixed gender convenience sample with a properly prepared survey if you like. Do you want to do this properly and specify some sort of quota profile too? I can only manage my local area for now - but if you wait until July August I can extend it to Australia if you like.

I am not trying to be 'smart' about this, I am serious. I am so confident I am prepared to put this to the test if you want to agree here in public an agreed methodology and questions. You can do some at your location too and if others are willing to chip in maybe we can get a proper objective take on this. The more I think of this the more I want to do it in fact. All it requires is that everyone do it the same way and collate the results the same way.

I used to work for a market research Co when I was studying at Uni as a part time job so I have a little experience I can contribute. Tourn is a Staistician so he can probably cast his eye over it too (and I teach stats so I have some idea too).

Who is up for this?


Just get a really good profile pic of the 2012 Ducati (that you both agree on) and email it to everyone you know with the question "Who are the main Sponsors/Advertisers for this motorcycle racing team?"

I'd bet that even if you sent it to general sports enthusiasts and car racing fans, the number of responders identifying Marlboro would be damn close to zero.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby chc-pr on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:39 pm

Squidpuppet wrote:Just get a really good profile pic of the 2012 Ducati (that you both agree on) and email it to everyone you know with the question "Who are the main Sponsors/Advertisers for this motorcycle racing team?"

I'd bet that even if you sent it to general sports enthusiasts and car racing fans, the number of responders identifying Marlboro would be damn close to zero.

I agree, but if we did this properly we could make sure we have a proper respondent profile.

But your suggestion would be very effective in its own right. If everyone (or a significant number) on the forum did the same we could pool our results. I bet the recognition amongst non motor racing fans would be less than 1% and even among motor racing fans it would be less than 10% - unless it was a sample of MotoGP long standing fans only in which case it might reach double figures - but I wouldn't bet on it.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Japhrodisiac on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:44 pm

Certainly it seems as though a more compact engine would allow for a longer swingarm and at least some leeway in terms of where to place the engine in the frame. Whether a 90 degree engine allows or doesn't allow for the range of adjustment that Ducati requires can only truly be known by them, and given the statements coming from Prezi regarding this point he seems to strongly feel that this isn't the issue. He is known to get strongly attached to his engineering so I have my doubts.

The oddities of what has transpired so far :
- Prezi says that they were always up against one extreme of the adjustment range last year, with nowhere to go. They changed eveything chassis-wise at least twice, yet they still seem to be up against the extreme end of the adjustment range
- Rossi says the bike is greatly improved, then it isn't. I'm not going anywhere near Rossi bashing with this - I believe him, he certainly has the experience and ability to know what's going on with the bike. The bike is consistently inconsistent then, or hyper sensitive to temperature and setup
- The supposedly worse version GPzero has lapped faster than the GP12
- Simply getting some parts to fix a riding position took most or all of last season

It would appear that the only thing stopping Ducati from creating a narrow angle V is their engineering pride
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Rossifumi on Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:42 pm

chc-pr wrote:
Squidpuppet wrote:Just get a really good profile pic of the 2012 Ducati (that you both agree on) and email it to everyone you know with the question "Who are the main Sponsors/Advertisers for this motorcycle racing team?"

I'd bet that even if you sent it to general sports enthusiasts and car racing fans, the number of responders identifying Marlboro would be damn close to zero.

I agree, but if we did this properly we could make sure we have a proper respondent profile.

But your suggestion would be very effective in its own right. If everyone (or a significant number) on the forum did the same we could pool our results. I bet the recognition amongst non motor racing fans would be less than 1% and even among motor racing fans it would be less than 10% - unless it was a sample of MotoGP long standing fans only in which case it might reach double figures - but I wouldn't bet on it.

Maybe you thinking of the wrong question? The question to ask may be to ask a smoker with a Marlboro packet in their hands which formula 1 team or motoGP team it most reminds them of - tobacco companies have frequently contested that their marketing is about market share not about persuading non-smokers to smoke.
I'm sure that Philip Morris have done far more in depth analysis than we ever could and they would also be able to do it from the stand-point of knowing what they are trying to achieve and the context of where and with who they are trying to achieve it. If you believe that Philip Morris are spending the $millions ($billion in the case of Ferrari) in sponsorship when asking a few of their mates could prove that it had no effect then I respect your point of view, I just don't agree with it.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby redmike34 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:11 am

Judging by this, I wonder how much advertising tobacco via a MotoGP team helps business anyway:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicd ... y-chart-14

Russia, China (Asia in general, really), South America, eastern Europe, seem to be where they'd get the most bang for their advertising buck. Incidentally, since I never saw an adult Iraqi who wasn't a smoker while I was there, I have a hard time believing the shading of the Middle East... MotoGP has few races in Asia, none in South America, few in eastern Europe... Judging by what cigarettes cost in Australia, I imagine there's little point in advertising there. North America is becoming more and more anti-smoke--there are very few bars one can smoke in anymore. Same for western Europe, from what I hear--haven't been there in ~10 years. Etc...

I imagine Marlboro's sponsorship has the main benefit of being a tax write-off somehow...
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby chc-pr on Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:28 am

Rossifumi wrote:Maybe you thinking of the wrong question? The question to ask may be to ask a smoker with a Marlboro packet in their hands which formula 1 team or motoGP team it most reminds them of - tobacco companies have frequently contested that their marketing is about market share not about persuading non-smokers to smoke.

That is a fair point - to an extent.
I'm sure that Philip Morris have done far more in depth analysis than we ever could and they would also be able to do it from the stand-point of knowing what they are trying to achieve and the context of where and with who they are trying to achieve it. If you believe that Philip Morris are spending the $millions ($billion in the case of Ferrari) in sponsorship when asking a few of their mates could prove that it had no effect then I respect your point of view, I just don't agree with it.

Well, IME you would be surprise how much money is spent without any validation ever, so I am far from as certain as you are that they will have validated their spend.

I could tell of many stories which simply beggar belief involving millions at a time. Sometimes, the companies do not want to know the truth because of the personal agendas of a senior individual. The individual changes and some new person comes along and tests the results (in the manner you suggest) and it is suddenly all change. I have seen it first hand several times.

Often the justification is some out of date analysis that was done years ago. I recall one situation when a company did do some research and touted it far and wide to raise money. They were not best pleased when I started asking some awkward Qs that eventually revealed that the results were out by a factor of 100+ (ie two orders of magnitude). It didn't take much to see that the analysis was flawed - a few minutes in fact but in excess of £200million (230million in fact IIRC) was riding on that so called 'research' of market awareness.

While your "ask a smoker" point is reasonable - it starts from the supposition that they will even be aware that Marlboro sponsor anyone in MotoGP anymore, and I can't even see that being obvious from the livery.

Perhaps I am just more cynical than you. I guess if Ducati have another poor year we will find out before the next season if my cynacism is valid.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby JanBros on Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:43 am

my last comment on "staying on topic" :

Tourn46 wrote:Rather than shut down a thread, wouldnt it be easier for people to just accept that people have different opinions? Just because you don't like the opinion doesn't make it a snipe.
I think people need to get a grip... if you don't like something, then give your thoughts or ignore it. It's pretty simple... there may be the odd handbag (or piece of luggage?) thrown between the bandwagon and the caravan club... but that's normal in sport. Isn't it a beautiful thing how sport can raise such emotion?
If you don't want to read what others think, then why the hell join a public forum? I think people just need to grow a pair and get on with it.


ducati1098s wrote:
Oscar wrote:Note to moderators: this thread appears to have gone the way of the previous Ducati thread and - despite Mick's best efforts - has returned to the Stoner-Rossi sniping that turned the first one into crap. Time to shut it down and ban all further references to anything relating to Ducati, Stoner or Rossi?


Sorry Oscar- bur what crap and what gives you the mandate to call for a thread to be shut down? Maybe you didn't intend for it to read that way but it makes you sound like a condescending Stoner fan, with an agenda.

Whether people like it or not (antipodeans mainly) there are particular and relevant factors to consider in assessing where Ducati are (or were in 2011) in performance terms and addressing the argument as to whether the Duc is/was a fundamentally flawed motorcycle. Some Stoner fans love to assert that their man has shown that the Duc is a race winning bike and therefore Rossi should just man up and win on it too if he is truly worthy of his GOAT 9 WC status. Most of Stoners wins on the Desmo came in 2007 but is that a representative year? What would Stoner have achieved in 2011? A WC? definitely not IMHO. Of course he would have done better than Rossi did but then he has a completely different skill set when it comes to overpowering a vague front end by sliding the bike in (as per Valencia). This kind of analysis and references to Stoner repeatedly falling off are always going to creep in to this discussion and in my view rightly so as there is a fundamental question at the heart of this thread that inevitably invites CS and VR's performance comparisons on the bike- was it/is it a great bike that just needs a great rider or a turd that some have been better at polishing than others?

Im not advocating alot of this type of discussion because I agree that there is a better place for it, but come on guys.........


this used to be one of the greatest threads on the technical side of moto racebikes, so I come and read it, and post comments.
The last couple of pages again are mostly (and yes Motomania, I did P-P-P this) of the biggest crap out there. So am I suppost not to come here anymore, and maybe mis an interesting comment, or do I keep on reading everything hoping something interesting turns up only to be disapointed once again ???

We've had the Stoner-Rossi-good-bad-Ducati 2007 GP bike-... discussion many times, it has no longer a place in this topic. If you want to continue it, please do so in the apropriate topic ;)

Maybe a solution to this problem could be that your opening line should be :

!! WARNING : THIS POST CONTAINS ROSSI-STONER-2007... GOSSIP !!

when it does,so people know what to read and what not ;)
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby sailor22 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:39 pm

Rossi still about 1.5 back after the first day - or about the same as last year. The Aprilia ART is only about .1 behind Rossi.

I'm speculating there are some tight puckers at Corse this evening.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Squidpuppet on Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:45 pm

Rossifumi wrote:Maybe you thinking of the wrong question? The question to ask may be to ask a smoker with a Marlboro packet in their hands which formula 1 team or motoGP team it most reminds them of


:? Aint that backwards? Why spend money advertising to a current addict of your product? He's already hooked. I doubt Marlboro's objective is to convert smokers into motorsprts fans. They arent marketing motorsport, they are marketing their product, tobacco.

tobacco companies have frequently contested that their marketing is about market share not about persuading non-smokers to smoke.


True, and this is the second biggest lie they tell us. They are not only guilty of marketing towards young non-smokers, they have merchandised their products in ways that specifically targeted children. "Get 'em hooked as kids and you have a customer for life" is a motto (taped sessions were revealed) that trainers used to teach their merchandising staffs. There have been many watchdog groups in the US that raised hell and got the government to force the industry to change their tactics.

I'm sure that Philip Morris have done far more in depth analysis than we ever could and they would also be able to do it from the stand-point of knowing what they are trying to achieve and the context of where and with who they are trying to achieve it.


I would have assumed that the point would be to increase sales by aquiring new customers. Do you suspect that there might be other objectives? If Marlboro spends $ millions to achieve something other than increased cigarette sales, I'd be interested in what that is. Not saying it doesnt exist, but I'd be genuinely curious and probably fascinated by the motives behind the curtain.

If you believe that Philip Morris are spending the $millions ($billion in the case of Ferrari) in sponsorship when asking a few of their mates could prove that it had no effect then I respect your point of view, I just don't agree with it.


Uh, no, I dont. But thats what we have been pondering here. How effective is an advertising medium where your brand is unrecognizable, and why does Marlboro continue it's association with motorsports?
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Tourn46 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:55 pm

Bad day today... the Ducati GP12 and GP0's just seem so out of touch from the Yamaha's and Honda's.

They need their new stuff before round 3, that's for certain.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Rossifumi on Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:29 pm

Squidpuppet wrote:
Rossifumi wrote:Maybe you thinking of the wrong question? The question to ask may be to ask a smoker with a Marlboro packet in their hands which formula 1 team or motoGP team it most reminds them of


:? Aint that backwards? Why spend money advertising to a current addict of your product? He's already hooked. I doubt Marlboro's objective is to convert smokers into motorsprts fans. They arent marketing motorsport, they are marketing their product, tobacco.


no, it's about converting smokers to Marlboro's not non-smokers to smokers.

Squidpuppet wrote:
tobacco companies have frequently contested that their marketing is about market share not about persuading non-smokers to smoke.


True, and this is the second biggest lie they tell us. They are not only guilty of marketing towards young non-smokers, they have merchandised their products in ways that specifically targeted children. "Get 'em hooked as kids and you have a customer for life" is a motto (taped sessions were revealed) that trainers used to teach their merchandising staffs. There have been many watchdog groups in the US that raised hell and got the government to force the industry to change their tactics.


I'm not defending tobacco companies but there is mileage in gaining market share without growing the total size of the market. Maybe the association with Ferrari and Ducati is about attracting the young smokers?
Squidpuppet wrote:
I'm sure that Philip Morris have done far more in depth analysis than we ever could and they would also be able to do it from the stand-point of knowing what they are trying to achieve and the context of where and with who they are trying to achieve it.


I would have assumed that the point would be to increase sales by aquiring new customers. Do you suspect that there might be other objectives? If Marlboro spends $ millions to achieve something other than increased cigarette sales, I'd be interested in what that is. Not saying it doesnt exist, but I'd be genuinely curious and probably fascinated by the motives behind the curtain.


what market they're going for, established or emerging? what demographic? maintaining existing customers or converting customers from other brands? etc etc.
Squidpuppet wrote:
If you believe that Philip Morris are spending the $millions ($billion in the case of Ferrari) in sponsorship when asking a few of their mates could prove that it had no effect then I respect your point of view, I just don't agree with it.


Uh, no, I dont. But thats what we have been pondering here. How effective is an advertising medium where your brand is unrecognizable, and why does Marlboro continue it's association with motorsports?


without getting inside Philip Morris' marketing dept. it's impossible to say but for a current Marlboro smoker maybe knowing the association and the similarities in branding of Ferrari/Ducati and Marlboro are enough to keep certain customers loyal to the brand
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Faster1 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:38 pm

Tourn46 wrote:Bad day today... the Ducati GP12 and GP0's just seem so out of touch from the Yamaha's and Honda's.

They need their new stuff before round 3, that's for certain.


I definitely don't want to start any bad back and forths with you T46,, but respectively,, I see no reason to assume that :
A. there are any bolt-on parts to make up over a second.
or
B. They even know exactly what part to replace.

IMO at this point it would be counter productive to keep changing "parts". Without spending the same amount of time as everyone else does, in adjusting what they have, how can Ducati be sure that they need new parts. The times indicate that the (certain to fix everything) frame change didn't change much. And it seems that Nicky's familiarity with the long time consistent characteristics of a (any) Ducati gp bike is supporting my question. On paper (at least in the past) VR was good for almost half a second per lap over Hayden, even before they arrived at the track. He IS the litmus test. So until he is consistently faster than Nicky, a parts change doesn't look like the answer.

Just a thought,,, don't want to raise any hairs..
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Squidpuppet on Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:57 pm

Rossifumi wrote:without getting inside Philip Morris' marketing dept. it's impossible to say but for a current Marlboro smoker maybe knowing the association and the similarities in branding of Ferrari/Ducati and Marlboro are enough to keep certain customers loyal to the brand


I'll go out on a limb and assume that retaining current smokers who are ALSO ALREADY aware of the association would be a shabby ROI for the amount they spend. :D

And yeah, It was clear that you werent in any way defending or supporting the industry.
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The LV engine and longer swingarms

Postby Squidpuppet on Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:18 pm

I noticed something today that caused me to wonder about the possible advantages of reducing the V angle of the engine.

Some have said that tightening up the V would allow the engine to be mounted farther forward and that this could help with the weight bias. I certainly agree that it would allow for more adjustablity and that may help them to achieve a better setting.

Some have said that a tighter V would allow for a longer swingarm and that may provide increased traction.

On the front page there are new pictures (Jerez test) of Nicky's most current bike. He has exhauted his adjustment of the rear axle position towards the front of the bike.

Two things confuse me here.

1. Moving the rear wheel forward as he has, increases the weight bias towards the rear of the bike. If they are trying to achieve that, why mount the engine farther forward?

2. Why would they want a longer swingarm if they are already seeking to move the rear wheel even farther forward? I understand that moving the countershaft forward an inch would allow the swingarm pivot to move forward an inch and that would necessitate a longer swingarm in order to maintain the current wheelbase. BUT, Nicky is already seeking either (A) a shorter wheelbase, or (B) more weight on the rear.

:? Thoughts?
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Rossifumi on Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:56 pm

Squidpuppet wrote:
And yeah, It was clear that you werent in any way defending or supporting the industry.


can you clarify this comment? you're suggesting I'm in some way supporting the tobacco industry? If you are can you point to where you think I've done this?
My only points have to been to support the idea that marketing and brand awareness work - may be not on you but it does work and that's why companies spend the money they do on creating a brand image and promoting awareness of it and also why regulators have been trying to increasingly restrict the tobacco industry from doing it.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Squidpuppet on Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:11 am

Rossifumi wrote:
Squidpuppet wrote:
And yeah, It was clear that you werent in any way defending or supporting the industry.


can you clarify this comment? you're suggesting I'm in some way supporting the tobacco industry? If you are can you point to where you think I've done this?
My only points have to been to support the idea that marketing and brand awareness work - may be not on you but it does work and that's why companies spend the money they do on creating a brand image and promoting awareness of it and also why regulators have been trying to increasingly restrict the tobacco industry from doing it.


My post was sincere, not sarcastic. It says that it was clear to me that you werent supporting or defending. You made it a point to say that in your previous post, so I wanted to assure you that I got your message and understood you.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Oscar on Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:15 am

Squidpuppet wrote:On the front page there are new pictures (Jerez test) of Nicky's most current bike. He has exhauted his adjustment of the rear axle position towards the front of the bike.

Two things confuse me here.

1. Moving the rear wheel forward as he has, increases the weight bias towards the rear of the bike. If they are trying to achieve that, why mount the engine farther forward?

2. Why would they want a longer swingarm if they are already seeking to move the rear wheel even farther forward? I understand that moving the countershaft forward an inch would allow the swingarm pivot to move forward an inch and that would necessitate a longer swingarm in order to maintain the current wheelbase. BUT, Nicky is already seeking either (A) a shorter wheelbase, or (B) more weight on the rear.

:? Thoughts?


IIRC, one of the major developments attributed to the '04 Yamaha was raising the engine in the chassis to provide more weight transfer. The I4 is pretty obviously the most mass-centralised configuration, the 90 degree V4 the least, a narrower-angle V4 somewhere in between. The greater the mass centralisation, the greater the differential due to weight transfer would be, I suspect. Crankshaft rotation has an apparent, noticeable effect on entry and exit, with the Yams. favouring entry and the Hondas favouring exit (see also: last corner, Valencia, 2011 :lol: ).

Given that the Ducatis were complaining of exit problems at Sepang II, and now entry problems at Jerez, it's hard to see other that they aren't caught between a rock and a hard place: because of the relative lack of mass centralisation, it seems to me to be a case of 'you can have one, but not both' of effective balance. It looks, once again, as if Ducati are smack up against the 'sow's ear' syndrome.
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Squidpuppet on Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:20 am

Oscar wrote:[IIRC, one of the major developments attributed to the '04 Yamaha was raising the engine in the chassis to provide more weight transfer. The I4 is pretty obviously the most mass-centralised configuration, the 90 degree V4 the least, a narrower-angle V4 somewhere in between. The greater the mass centralisation, the greater the differential due to weight transfer would be, I suspect. Crankshaft rotation has an apparent, noticeable effect on entry and exit, with the Yams. favouring entry and the Hondas favouring exit (see also: last corner, Valencia, 2011 :lol: ).

Given that the Ducatis were complaining of exit problems at Sepang II, and now entry problems at Jerez, it's hard to see other that they aren't caught between a rock and a hard place: because of the relative lack of mass centralisation, it seems to me to be a case of 'you can have one, but not both' of effective balance. It looks, once again, as if Ducati are smack up against the 'sow's ear' syndrome.


Do we know if Rossi/JB have asked Ducati to experiment with crank rotation direction?
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Tourn46 on Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:32 am

Faster1 wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:Bad day today... the Ducati GP12 and GP0's just seem so out of touch from the Yamaha's and Honda's.

They need their new stuff before round 3, that's for certain.


I definitely don't want to start any bad back and forths with you T46,, but respectively,, I see no reason to assume that :
A. there are any bolt-on parts to make up over a second.
or
B. They even know exactly what part to replace.

IMO at this point it would be counter productive to keep changing "parts". Without spending the same amount of time as everyone else does, in adjusting what they have, how can Ducati be sure that they need new parts. The times indicate that the (certain to fix everything) frame change didn't change much. And it seems that Nicky's familiarity with the long time consistent characteristics of a (any) Ducati gp bike is supporting my question. On paper (at least in the past) VR was good for almost half a second per lap over Hayden, even before they arrived at the track. He IS the litmus test. So until he is consistently faster than Nicky, a parts change doesn't look like the answer.

Just a thought,,, don't want to raise any hairs..


Well, I don't think they have any magical parts either if I am honest... it's just been mentioned in various interviews that they are expecting a few new pieces after the first few rounds of the season.

I know it's just the first day of testing but I was 'expecting' or at least anticipating ~0.8s behind the leader... not 1.3s and 1.7s and it just doesn't look good at all at the moment!
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Re: Ducati goings on. Part 2.

Postby Kropotkin on Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:36 am

WARNING

When I get home from the Jerez test, I'm going to go through this thread and delete a whole bunch of posts. The Rossi/Stoner thread is the place for rampant fanboi-ism, which appears to have crept in here. Please limit comments to the work going on on the Ducati, and how it is affecting Rossi and Hayden's results.
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