Adaptable Rossi Revisit

[synapse]

Wow! Just saw this post I made when the forum just started from mid 2008!
One thing is still true - he's had quite a journey (just not where he thought he was going!)
Here's hoping he can somehow find his way back. Like him or dislike him he brings good theater!


"Adaptable Rossi

Post by synapse on Wed May 21, 2008 6:40 pm
Isn't it amazing how Rossi has adapted and been successful in the premier class from 500's to 990's to 800's along the way from Honda to Yamaha and now his newest challenge Michelin to Bridgestone?
(I know he hasn't won 800's or Bridgestones but successful nonetheless)
I enjoy watching all the riders but Rossi's journey is the most interesting to watch.

Great to have this new forum up!

Thank you."

[eddahenry]

Well I'll brake the silence in here
Yes Rossi is very Adaptable as he has shown over the years previously discussed .
What we now know is simple really
Dosnt matter what it is if it has a planted front end with good feedback and feel Rossi will be fast and competitive.
His achillies heal is , if the bike has a vague feel less front end he struggles. Rossis style is break late high entry and mid corner speed. This is why he is always seen as a "racer" loves to "battle" due to his style.
Hi style has seen him take 9 WC in every class so I can see his point that they should make a bike to suit him . But ATM we all know the duck is along way from fitting that bill.

[Desmo44]

Rossi's problem is much deeper and more than the bike. I brought this up last year, but with little response. That is understandable, as any attempt to explain his mental state is pure speculation, but when a rider with Rossi's credentials drops to the realm of irrelevance and now embarrassment, an explanation is demanded. He has obviously lost his ability to go fast. To push himself to the edge. To be competitive.

Is it the Ducati? To some extent, certainly. But we are talking about Rossi, not the other riders who have slammed into a wall built in Bologna. He's above and beyond those riders. Stoner has been the exception, but he too is above and beyond the others. Given Rossi's capabilities, accomplishments and competitiveness, he too should be above and beyond, not getting beat by mere mortals. There is no way I can accept that Rossi can't get at least one win or an occasional pole or even on the front row because he can't come to terms with the desmosedici.

It's more than the bike. Perhaps it's a post fracture vulnerability. Perhaps its age and wisdom. Perhaps its new riders who have created self doubt in his supremacy. Perhaps its now the added loss of a friend and protege. The Rossi of old would have pushed to a front row start, to a pole, to a win no matter what bike he sat on.

Unless he is not adaptable. Unless his greatness is so narrowly defined that he can only excel on a certain type of bike. Unless the emperor has no clothes. I'm not buying it.

It's more than the bike.

[dave_m]

I don't want to get into a Rossi/Stoner thing, but I think it should be clear right now that Stoner is probably the only top rider that isn't markedly slower on the Ducati. Remembering back to when Spies joined the MotoGP ranks, he talked about how following Stoner was different than Rossi/Lorenzo/etc, because he didn't understand what Stoner was doing. All the riders were faster and he could see what Rossi/Lorenzo/etc were doing, but not Stoner. Kind of a long way of saying I don't think being slow on the Ducati means anything, it's too different.

The Simo thing doesn't make a lot of sense, as Rossi's performance dropped of when he left Yamaha and started riding the Ducati. Look at the last 5 races in 2010: 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd. Maybe he's older and hanging with Lorenzo/Stoner/Pedrosa is more of a challenge, but the problems started immediately upon leaving Yamaha. And they won't end until he leaves Ducati, as I'm not even convinced he can get a podium on the GP12 before he could on a CRT. I'm not saying he's in the perfect frame of mind, but he's not getting top 5 on the Ducati even if he was.

[Tourn46]

For me it would be too much of a coincidence to hop off a Yamaha while still being very competitive, while carrying injuries, his performances while recovering from a broken leg and with a knackered shoulder (which the Doctors have said was worse than they expected) weren't exactly bad... how many podiums was it? To then hop on a Ducati and be that slow. Something just doesn't add up to me that Rossi has lost his talent overnight.

Something between Rossi and the Ducati simply isn't working (like pretty much every other rider to sit on a Ducati) and it really just doesn't fit for me based upon the switch from Yamaha (going from alien speeds to Elias speeds literally overnight) that he doesn't have what it takes.

[Sloth27]

For me it would be too much of a coincidence to hop off a Yamaha while still being very competitive, while carrying injuries, his performances while recovering from a broken leg and with a knackered shoulder (which the Doctors have said was worse than they expected) weren't exactly bad... how many podiums was it? To then hop on a Ducati and be that slow. Something just doesn't add up to me that Rossi has lost his talent overnight.

Something between Rossi and the Ducati simply isn't working (like pretty much every other rider to sit on a Ducati) and it really just doesn't fit for me based upon the switch from Yamaha (going from alien speeds to Elias speeds literally overnight) that he doesn't have what it takes.

I agree, he didn't lose his talent overnight. But things were becomming tougher for him towards the end at Yamaha and my feeling is that this year might push him over the edge (whether it's him or the bike might not make a difference). Self doubt is a game changer at this sporting level.

Rossi needs a good performance sooner rather than later...

[yzr750]

It had to happen sometime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ly4m-o9wUIg

[motor]

It had to happen sometime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ly4m-o9wUIg

LOL bloody good..I've barely covered the first 30 seconds and it's already building up nicely

[Oscar]

It had to happen sometime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ly4m-o9wUIg

Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Just, oh bloody dear. That is going to hurt. Lucky Audi hasn't bought Ducati already, ya?

[Gustav O]

It had to happen sometime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ly4m-o9wUIg

[Sloth27]

It's hilarious, but frightfully close to the truth behind close doors I bet...

[Bato]

Maybe he's in the frame of mind KR Jr. was with his last year at Suzuki,
where he would not push 100% if it ment he could only be 8., 9., 10. ...
He wouldn't even fight his teammate.

Why bother giving it all you got and possibly risking serious injury for mediocer result at best?

[CLX]

If I had to guess, I'd say the confidence lost after his broken leg has some responsability in this.

[Tourn46]

If I had to guess, I'd say the confidence lost after his broken leg has some responsability in this.

I would say his results upon his return from breaking his leg and during the recovery time throughout 2010 while still at Yamaha says otherwise - paricularly when you look at the fierce battle at Motegi he had with Lorenzo.

[Desmo44]

I guess my main point is that he has simply given up. But why? Perhaps a combination of things. Not a broken leg, but a newly realized vulnerability that he never had before and then confronted with a bike that you know is going to throw you down the track if you push it like you need to. Wisdom? When you get older you slow down some. In racing, when you get wiser you slow down a lot. Young aliens? I feel more vulnerable, I'm wiser and now I have to compete on a bike I don't like with guys that are faster than me than when I'm on a bike I do like. It all adds up to a loss of competitiveness that has been further damaged by the loss of a close friend.

He was at the top of his game. He was the fastest. He was the best loved. He was the happy clown. He could see it slowly slipping away: age creeping in, tough new competition, etc. Then he experiences the series of events listed above and all that was is no more. It would be depressing for anyone, but perhaps for an ego like his, it becomes devastating. When others rise and fall, that's to be expected and is self explanitory. When a rider of Rossi's stature falls so quickly, it requires an explanation.

Is this what's happened? Pure speculation on my part, but when a rider of his stature sinks to this level of performance it's more than the bike in my opinion.

The fires out.

[sailor22]

Let's see here, He's already really rich, No confidence in the bike at speed, the bike not delivered as promised (several times) he has had some really bad injuries that sap your confidence in the best of circumstances and (underline this next one) late last year he ran over his close friend on track and his friend died. Fires out is a good description and is probably the sum of the parts.

And that's just the parts we can see. My suspicion is that the jostling behind the scenes at Corse have been more significant than we have been led to believe.

His salary and the phenomenal cost over runs of the engineering and re-engineering and re-re-engineering etc. have put the company he rides for so deeply in debt that is has to be sold to a foreigner or go bankrupt. A national tragedy to most Italians. The shit storm that is the blame game will be starting soon and no one wants to be on board when that ship hits the rocks. Another good cause for loosing motivation and getting the hell into a life boat (F1).

[Squidpuppet]

If I had to guess, I'd say the confidence lost after his broken leg has some responsability in this.

I would say his results upon his return from breaking his leg and during the recovery time throughout 2010 while still at Yamaha says otherwise - paricularly when you look at the fierce battle at Motegi he had with Lorenzo.

Agree 100%. Rossi would be fighting for wins if he was on an M1 or an RCV. His head is damaged from his unproductive time at Ducati, but I suspect that damage would heal over night if he could "enjoy" his bike.

[CLX]

If I had to guess, I'd say the confidence lost after his broken leg has some responsability in this.

I would say his results upon his return from breaking his leg and during the recovery time throughout 2010 while still at Yamaha says otherwise - paricularly when you look at the fierce battle at Motegi he had with Lorenzo.

Agree 100%. Rossi would be fighting for wins if he was on an M1 or an RCV. His head is damaged from his unproductive time at Ducati, but I suspect that damage would heal over night if he could "enjoy" his bike.

You have fair points, but riding an M1 for him was by then supposed to be as complicated as drinking water. He could manage his shoulder and leg around it. Once he hopped on a Duc and got the feeling of win or bin on such an unfriendly bike, I think breaking more bones became a greater concern than before.

My opinion, at least...

[dave_m]

You have fair points, but riding an M1 for him was by then supposed to be as complicated as drinking water. He could manage his shoulder and leg around it. Once he hopped on a Duc and got the feeling of win or bin on such an unfriendly bike, I think breaking more bones became a greater concern than before.

My opinion, at least...

He's not happy pushing to get 6th, that's for sure, and I'm not sure he's willing to push the same amount he was for the win at Yamaha. The problem is that we're only talking about a couple tenths difference as a result, and he's got a lot more time to make up than that. I'm not convinced pushing harder even matters on the Ducati, as Rossi equaled his career high for crashes in a season last year, and if he was just riding around unwilling to push at all there's no reason to crash that many times.

I think the bigger problem is that he doesn't trust the Ducati at all, because it doesn't react predictably to the changes his team makes. If that can't be repaired, I don't think it matters what Ducati changes, which is why I think it'll take a different bike for Rossi to compete for the podium again.

[yzr750]

One of the first rules of top level racing is you have to beat your team mate. Hayden blew him away in qualifying, and beat him in the race, along with other Ducati's. Until he is using the bike to it's full potential, he should quit the whinging and get his head down, arse up and work at it .
Last season he was gradually improving on the GP11 until he decided he wanted to use the GP11.1 or whatever it was, then it went backwards. Maybe if he worked with what he had, it would have continued that improvement and been semi competitive by seasons end?
Realistically, Ducati are the third tier in Motogp, 5th place should be considered the best result they should reasonably expect, and at this stage in the season with the satellites being so close to the factory bikes in developmental terms, a case could maybe even be made for the Ducatis to be behind the tec3 Yam's as well.
On that basis Hayden is where he should be, but Rossi should be 10 seconds better than Hayden over race distance, which would put him where he should be.
Basically, he should shut his gob, work hard, and stop acting like a spoiled kid.

[phil]

I want to stand up in the yella fella's defence.
This could of happened at Yamaha when he was younger and half a billion euros poorer. But it didn't.
What historical precidence did he and JB have to say they couldn't do it again?
His unending comments saying I can't ride the bike as I want suggest to me his (and JB's) adaptabilty lays in adapting the bike to him, not him to the bike.
I myself strongly suspect that had, in 2004, Biaggi and Gibernau been named Lorenzo and Stoner history would of been re-written, but the fact is they werent and the vr jb adaptability record stands, while no longer being perfect.
Faster1 called it when he said vales next book will be called "wish I'd never turned from blue" and I wholly agree, that move was arrorgant and premadonnaish.
My bone of contention is I suspect the 'fans' who were booing Stoner at silverstone a few years back are now singing his praises and posting rossi/ hitler videos on youtube.
Such is the internet.
Stoner had a good 'whinge' about the team saying your fast, you can ride around the chatter at Qatar but the tidal wave of stoner-the-moaner comments never materialised because the 'fans' were too busy kicking rossi!
Thanks for the memories Vale. It was my, and many here's, privelidge to see, good luck at Monza and your future career at Ferrari.
Not my thing but I'll still keep an eye on ya!

[sir_nj]

It had to happen sometime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ly4m-o9wUIg

"we even hired Uccio" priceless

Stoner had a good 'whinge' about the team saying your fast, you can ride around the chatter at Qatar but the tidal wave of stoner-the-moaner comments never materialised because the 'fans' were too busy kicking rossi!

actualy I think they are kicking both rossi AND ducati. Pity really but that might because such a large part of his fan base don't really like MotoGP, just winners. Muppets.

[yzr750]

I want to stand up in the yella fella's defence.
This could of happened at Yamaha when he was younger and half a billion euros poorer. But it didn't.
What historical precidence did he and JB have to say they couldn't do it again?
His unending comments saying I can't ride the bike as I want suggest to me his (and JB's) adaptabilty lays in adapting the bike to him, not him to the bike.
I myself strongly suspect that had, in 2004, Biaggi and Gibernau been named Lorenzo and Stoner history would of been re-written, but the fact is they werent and the vr jb adaptability record stands, while no longer being perfect.
Faster1 called it when he said vales next book will be called "wish I'd never turned from blue" and I wholly agree, that move was arrorgant and premadonnaish.
My bone of contention is I suspect the 'fans' who were booing Stoner at silverstone a few years back are now singing his praises and posting rossi/ hitler videos on youtube.
Such is the internet.
Stoner had a good 'whinge' about the team saying your fast, you can ride around the chatter at Qatar but the tidal wave of stoner-the-moaner comments never materialised because the 'fans' were too busy kicking rossi!
Thanks for the memories Vale. It was my, and many here's, privelidge to see, good luck at Monza and your future career at Ferrari.
Not my thing but I'll still keep an eye on ya!

The thing is Phil, if you live by the sword, you die by the sword, Rossi has whored himself to the media at every opportunity, and used that very same media to undermine his opponents. Maybe if when Stoner was riding the Duc he had said,yes the Ducati looks very hard to ride, instead of "there's nothing wrong with it, he just isn't riding it hard enough" then this little bout of schadenfreude wouldn't be happening.

[motomania]

It's more than the bike. Perhaps it's a post fracture vulnerability. Perhaps its age and wisdom. Perhaps its new riders who have created self doubt in his supremacy. Perhaps its now the added loss of a friend and protege. The Rossi of old would have pushed to a front row start, to a pole, to a win no matter what bike he sat on.

Unless he is not adaptable. Unless his greatness is so narrowly defined that he can only excel on a certain type of bike. Unless the emperor has no clothes. I'm not buying it.

It's more than the bike.

It all adds up to a loss of competitiveness that has been further damaged by the loss of a close friend.

If I had to guess, I'd say the confidence lost after his broken leg has some responsability in this.

I think the above quoted comments say a lot into what's going on with Rossi. Last year I was one that said I thought Rossi would give serious consideration to retirement, if he didn't stop. The reasons that I thought that are due to Vale going through his first "serious" injury and the fact that he was directly involved in the incident that took the life of his good friend. Both of those things brought home the point, in a direct & personal way, that he's truly vulnerable. We hear them talk all the time about the level of concentration that's required to compete at this level. Let more than a nickel or so of that infamous $1.00 of concentration disappear and it's going to affect your ability to compete at your fullest. Add to that a bike that only 1 in over 20 riders has been able to have any sort of success on in the last 5 years and that just creates a recipe for disaster. I hope I'm wrong and that they'll figure something out and he'll be back at the pointy end. Right now, I'm not sure that either he nor Ducati have it in them to get it done right.

I'm not a hardcore Rossi fan but as a hardcore MotoGP fan, I truly appreciate what he's done. Some will disagree but he's taken the sport to another level and deserves the accolades he's received. All you have to do is look at his numbers and they tell the story, very few have accomplished what he has.
That's my worth.

[Zaphod]

People that want to write off sportsman of such abilty should have a quick glance at F1 this year..........

After two years of nay saying and "expert opines" on why he should never have returned/isn't as good as the young guys, I notice that development work seems to be paying dividends, and one Michael Schumacher is 2nd (should be third on time) for todays Chinese GP......right behind his younger team-mate.

If these results stay as consistant as they have been this year (actually, the things been constantly improving for the last 12 to 18 months), I will be watching with interest to see just how egg is cleaned from many faces.

Not a rbid Rossi fan, but as mentioned above.........he has done much for the sport, and may not be having having a good time of it machine and mentally-wise.

If things change for the positive for him, he will be running top five, I am sure.