2012 MotoGP Round 1 - Qatar

[JanBros]

about Ducati : all those of you who shoot them for not giving what Rossi want's :
- Rossi got everything he asked for : in 2011 he always said the engine wasn't the problem, so they changed everything else.
- instead of shouting the bike is bad, he should try to understand the bike 100% and then ask for changes, not after 50%. He should have learned that by now. He should keep his mouth shut and just work, like anybody else has to.
- last year, we all said they didn't have alu perimeter experience and it is showing now. But for gods sake : it's only the first race ...
- anybody ever tried creating a bike ? I have, allthough at a totaly different level. but it is a challenge : lot's and lot's off sacrifices have to be made to some parts in order to get other parts working decently. Getting the balance right isn't something you decide from behind a desk, it is more a "trial and error" process. the result isn't always what you had in mind, but you are happy if it workes. Especialy if it is the first time (I don't take the GP zero into account, as it was just a GP11.1 with different frame to gather data, not a "real effort") you do something like that. So Ducati for the first time ever did this, and to me it appears to be a good result : it still is an incredibily fast bike that "lot's of" people can ride instead of just one. there only problem is that others have done this 10-50-100's of times and are better at it. But just give them some time, I'm sure they will learn quick and improve over the season.

[Tourn46]

You know what... I can't be bothered

[Squidpuppet]

You know what... I can't be bothered

Like Vale...

[eddahenry]

You know what... I can't be bothered

Like Vale...

nah the keyboard just doesn't have the right front end feel

[redmike34]

Its not about whether Ducati have acted in good or bad faith but whether they have listened. Rossi banged on time and time again last year about the bikes understeer and yet nothing really changed. I think he has been bloody patient myself and Im glad he's stopped now trying to be diplomatic. Ducati have to decide now whether they are prepared to make the necessary hard choices re their precious but flawed engineering principles. If not the bring on the divorce I say as something fundamental has to change re this ridiculous status quo of a bike 30 secs slower than the leaders. Rossi is forcing a confrontation and a choice to be made. Good

Why wouldn't they listen? They're all in. If they fail with Rossi, after failing with every other rider they've had since 2007 besides Stoner, there's a not-bad chance they'll throw in the towel on GP racing. Why continue to spend the gobs of money to do this, when your only chance of success are to either a) get Stoner back or b) find someone else of a similarly rare talent level?

I mean, we've seen exactly the same show since the start of the 800 era. Casey Stoner somehow, some way, could make a Duck go fast--everyone else on a Duck (with a very few races excepted) has been somewhere so far back they aren't in the same race. I think the question is, at this point, not so much about whether or not Ducati's listening. You have to wonder if they actually have the requisite talent on staff to be able to close the gap in the first place. It may very well be that the engineering teams at Honda and Yamaha are just that much better than those at Ducati. Or that their budgets are unassailably better...

I want Rossi to do well as much as the next guy. Even if I weren't a fan of his, when he's on he just makes GP racing better--he's a fighter like few others have ever been. However, that doesn't change the fact that he burned bridges with Honda when he left, may have burned everything but the pillars of the bridge when he left Yamaha, and there's no one left to race for. He seriously misjudged the situation at Ducati when he signed there, and he's paying the price for it. It sucks, for him and for everyone who's a fan of the sport, but it's water under the bridge. At least until 2013. Might as well get on with it.

[dave_m]

You know what... I can't be bothered

I know the feeling. I'm not sure why Rossi pointing out the bike's shortcomings in public is bad thing. What's the worst thing that can happen? Ducati get mad and fire him? That's no worse than watching him on uncompetitive machinery, as I want to see better racing. If Ducati really aren't at the level of Honda and Yamaha, why politely pretend they are? Rossi has publicly said he doesn't have the package he needs to win before, in 06 when Yamaha had their frame problem, in 07 when he was still on Michelin tires and the start of 08 when he was on the Yamaha and wasn't keeping up with Stoner on the Ducati. In all those cases, he was on a more competitive package than it appears he's on now, so I'm not surprised at all that he's spoken up now.

The Qatar weekend and race were a disaster for Rossi, but part of the way I read his statements was that even if it had gone comparatively well, that wouldn't have been acceptable. They were at a track that's good for Ducati (long straight) and that Rossi has had success at, but they were nowhere. It's not just one race either, it's all of 2011, at least 3 tests before the 2012 season and then this first race in Qatar. In 2011 Rossi and Hayden finished 7th and 9th at Qatar, and for the season? 7th and 8th. Let's hope they can turn around this season, but it's completely understandable why Rossi doesn't want a repeat of 2011.

[tom]

about Ducati : all those of you who shoot them for not giving what Rossi want's :
- Rossi got everything he asked for : in 2011 he always said the engine wasn't the problem, so they changed everything else.
- instead of shouting the bike is bad, he should try to understand the bike 100% and then ask for changes, not after 50%. He should have learned that by now. He should keep his mouth shut and just work, like anybody else has to.
- last year, we all said they didn't have alu perimeter experience and it is showing now. But for gods sake : it's only the first race ...
- anybody ever tried creating a bike ? I have, allthough at a totaly different level. but it is a challenge : lot's and lot's off sacrifices have to be made to some parts in order to get other parts working decently. Getting the balance right isn't something you decide from behind a desk, it is more a "trial and error" process. the result isn't always what you had in mind, but you are happy if it workes. Especialy if it is the first time (I don't take the GP zero into account, as it was just a GP11.1 with different frame to gather data, not a "real effort") you do something like that. So Ducati for the first time ever did this, and to me it appears to be a good result : it still is an incredibily fast bike that "lot's of" people can ride instead of just one. there only problem is that others have done this 10-50-100's of times and are better at it. But just give them some time, I'm sure they will learn quick and improve over the season.

Im with Casey Stoner on the duck issue
Maybe just Maybe if they took what they had last year and worked on it and learnt it instead of throwing anything good that may have been there out with the bike they would be somewhere.
There is no Development going on here.
This bike sux i want X Y Z
here vale here is X Y Z
Nah Still sux i want G P W
OK Vale here is G P W
nahh still sux i want A M E

they spend no time felling it out Maybe X Y and G would have been the combination they where after
this is not development its chasing a miracle cure they could try moving the team into the Vatican and hope for some divine intervention

Ducati have to decide now whether they are prepared to make the necessary hard choices re their precious but flawed engineering principles.

They have already made those decisions. Ducati have already recreated the bike many times AND have followed the recipe requests from JB and Rossi.

Underbraced swingarm: Done
M1 style pinch bolts for fork bottoms: Done
Aluminum twin spar: Done
JB says 90 degrees doesnt matter: Done
Engine rotated: Done
Adjustability range expanded: Done

With the numerous and significant changes, its hard to believe they arent listening to JB/Rossi.

I think you guys are misunderstanding the changes Rossi and JB asked for. He may have suggested some of the changes you highlighted but I dont think he is silly enough to pretend he is a engineer or bike designer. He only asked for only 2 fundamental things 1.more feel from the front end and 2.a bike that suits his riding style. So far it appears Ducati have given him only one of those things and by the sound of things, they have told him not to hold his breath for the second.

If Ducati are working away on the second request than your criticisms of VR are justified but if they have said no more changes this is a Ducati and ducati will always favour corner exits at the expense of entry's and mid corner speed, then I think he is doing the right thing going public.

You know what... I can't be bothered

Now you know how us stoner fans have felt for years, putting up with Rossi fans constantly putting shit on Casey because he dared to call a spade a spade. He was completely misunderstood and under rated. Now that the cards are face up on the table, it's starting to look like Casey is at least as good a rider as Rossi ever was and is a lot less of a whiner/moaner/whatever. Christ imagine that infamous LS race if the bikes were swapped! How much shit did CS get for daring to complain about some of VR's moves in that race and compare that to the comments VR made last race re a tough move on him. I really hope your opinion of CS has changed massively over the last year or so.

[Hansd]

Might as well get on with it.

Get on with what? I'm convinced that Vale has completely lost confidence that Ducati engineers can deliver what he needs. They've worked hard, given him many changes especially over the winter. By now, more than1 year into the project, they must have traveled all available avenues in terms of design and setup (with the possible exception of engine V-angle).
That's what really destroys one's confidence: to get all the changes you want, to set it up in all ways you know and some more....only to find out you're slower. Now what? I believe Rossi is completely at a loss, to a point where it starts affecting his driving style and raw speed.
I don't believe for a minute that Ducati has lost the ability to build a winning bike, nor that Rossi has lost his touch. But they are at a point right now where they've tried every possible option and more, and have no clue what to try next.

[Oscar]

Just to break into the Ducati woes fixation for a moment - check out what Spies was putting up with at around 22 secs into: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cVfHqIo8TU

Talk about a jack-hammer enema...

[redmike34]

Might as well get on with it.

Get on with what? I'm convinced that Vale has completely lost confidence that Ducati engineers can deliver what he needs. They've worked hard, given him many changes especially over the winter. By now, more than1 year into the project, they must have traveled all available avenues in terms of design and setup (with the possible exception of engine V-angle).
That's what really destroys one's confidence: to get all the changes you want, to set it up in all ways you know and some more....only to find out you're slower. Now what? I believe Rossi is completely at a loss, to a point where it starts affecting his driving style and raw speed.
I don't believe for a minute that Ducati has lost the ability to build a winning bike, nor that Rossi has lost his touch. But they are at a point right now where they've tried every possible option and more, and have no clue what to try next.

Get on with taking what Ducati's giving him and doing the best he can with it. What do you want him to do, quit? Eff that. The way Rossi comes out of this the least-scathed is to go to work at every opportunity and try his hardest to make the bike work. If he and Ducati fail, they fail--too bad. There's no shame in putting an honest effort into something and coming up short--that's what 99% of human beings spend the entirety of their lives doing. There's a pretty significant amount of shame in a 33 year-old man throwing the toys out of the pram when he's in a situation that he willingly put himself in, knowing that this could happen.

Rossi's legacy won't be tarnished by failing with Ducati, or at least not much, if he puts an honest effort into it. If he doesn't put that effort in, or quits, I think it will be. Significantly. Just my opinion...

[Japhrodisiac]

Just to break into the Ducati woes fixation for a moment - check out what Spies was putting up with at around 22 secs into: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cVfHqIo8TU

Talk about a jack-hammer enema...

Whoa Nelly! Great shot of the chatter. His rear wheel was getting kicked up off the ground too.

[chc-pr]

I have refrained from saying this for so long in the hope that someone else would say it, but everyone seems to have completely ignored the effect it must have had on Rossi when he realised what he had taken on and been so much slower than Stoner.

I'm not arguing about the cause of that or the Stoner/Rossi is better thing, that is irrelevant. Bottom line is Rossi was much slower and he has since admitted that it shocked him how bad the bike was. Just imagine facing up to that AND knowing the guy you can't get near on that thing is now on a good bike and immediately at the top of the timing sheets. It MUST have hit him hard mentally wondering just how he was going to be competitive against him - and I don't think Rossi ever recovered. You could see that in his riding last year and his demeanor after many races last year, not to mention the last race.

That Hayden has been so comparable to Rossi is I think all the proof you need that Rossi's mental state has not been where it was - unless you think Rossi and Hayden are of similar capability which I do not, Rossi should beat Hayden at every turn just as Stoner did.

On a related note, I wish people would stop assuming that what is good for Rossi/what Rossi supporters want is also good/wanted by everyone interested in MotoGP. It is just more of the same arrogance and it is really annoying. It just makes me want him to fail all the more so those people have their noses rubbed in it. It is not about Rossi per se, but the arrogance of putting one man above the sport. It really pisses me off.

[Hansd]

There's no shame in putting an honest effort into something and coming up short--that's what 99% of human beings spend the entirety of their lives doing.

Racing is about winning and an honest effort will not do. Especially if you are a multiple champion. In this sense it is NOT like regular work.
Champs like Stoner and Rossi need a chance to win to be motivated. Take that away and you take away their purpose in life.
THAT's what you see in Rossi's body language!

[Rossifumi]

I a related note, I wish people would stop assuming that what is good for Rossi/what Rossi supporters want is also good/wanted by everyone interested in MotoGP. It is just more of the same arrogance and it is really annoying. It just makes me want him to fail all the more so those people have their noses rubbed in it. It is not about Rossi per se, but the arrogance of putting one man above the sport. It really pisses me off.

We're all well versed in your dislike for Rossi, but like it or not, he's the biggest name in motorcycle racing and possibly the biggest name there has ever been in motorcycle racing so if not bigger than the sport itself he's the closest there is to it. Of course there's going to be a backlash to that from some quarters (as demonstrated by your comments) but Dorna, promotors and TV stations know it - the evidence was there in 2010 when Rossi broke his leg and missed a few races - attendance's and TV viewing figures were significantly down. So Rossi struggling is a big story and there are a lot of vested interests, as well as fans, who would like to see him turn it around.....as well as some who'd like to see him fail, obviously.

[redmike34]

Racing is about winning and an honest effort will not do. Especially if you are a multiple champion. In this sense it is NOT like regular work.
Champs like Stoner and Rossi need a chance to win to be motivated. Take that away and you take away their purpose in life.
THAT's what you see in Rossi's body language!

Think you're being a bit melodramatic. Frankly, an honest effort is all he CAN do, aside from quit. What else can he do? Change the laws of physics? Go back in time and reverse what is clearly now in retrospect a bad decision to go to Ducati?

And guess what else? If he applies the honest effort, he might even be successful! He sure won't be if he keeps feeling sorry for himself.

All I've got for you bud--we'll agree to disagree from here...

[sailor22]

I think the question is, at this point, not so much about whether or not Ducati's listening. You have to wonder if they actually have the requisite talent on staff to be able to close the gap in the first place. It may very well be that the engineering teams at Honda and Yamaha are just that much better than those at Ducati. Or that their budgets are unassailably better...

This.

[Squidpuppet]

Just to break into the Ducati woes fixation for a moment - check out what Spies was putting up with at around 22 secs into: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cVfHqIo8TU

Talk about a jack-hammer enema...

Holy crap. Its an atomic pogo-stick.

Casey better stop his whining and moaning about chatter.


Kidding.... :p

[Squidpuppet]

[Get on with taking what Ducati's giving him and doing the best he can with it. What do you want him to do, quit? Eff that. The way Rossi comes out of this the least-scathed is to go to work at every opportunity and try his hardest to make the bike work. If he and Ducati fail, they fail--too bad. There's no shame in putting an honest effort into something and coming up short--that's what 99% of human beings spend the entirety of their lives doing. There's a pretty significant amount of shame in a 33 year-old man throwing the toys out of the pram when he's in a situation that he willingly put himself in, knowing that this could happen.

Rossi's legacy won't be tarnished by failing with Ducati, or at least not much, if he puts an honest effort into it. If he doesn't put that effort in, or quits, I think it will be. Significantly. Just my opinion...

[Nachlauf]

Just to break into the Ducati woes fixation for a moment - check out what Spies was putting up with at around 22 secs into: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cVfHqIo8TU

Talk about a jack-hammer enema...

It's really strange that the bike was doing that though. Seemed to work decently Thursday and Friday. Maybe it got bend somehow in his first crash? Terrible weekend for him. His spare bike had some engine problems with misfiring cylinders. Must have been really frustrating.

[Faster1]

Just to break into the Ducati woes fixation for a moment - check out what Spies was putting up with at around 22 secs into: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cVfHqIo8TU

Talk about a jack-hammer enema...

,,If that footage is during the race or WUP,, it should take Spies right off of anyone's DOTM list. Who's responsible for such an unsorted/unbalanced/unworthy setup. The Yamaha seem sublime when setup correctly and Spies wins races.

gross oversight incompetence anyone? or something broke?

[Grahluk]

On a related note, I wish people would stop assuming that what is good for Rossi/what Rossi supporters want is also good/wanted by everyone interested in MotoGP. It is just more of the same arrogance and it is really annoying. It just makes me want him to fail all the more so those people have their noses rubbed in it. It is not about Rossi per se, but the arrogance of putting one man above the sport. It really pisses me off.

You would want a rider to fail just because his fans annoy you? A sports figure can't do much either way about their fans nor do the fans opinion and speculation have anything to do with what's really happening... but I get your point. The proclamations from the fringes of fandom can sour appreciating a rider on his own merits. On the other coin some of the Stoner fans are also really making it hard to just sit back and appreciate how the guy rides. When the races come on I turn off all this banter that's accrued in the interim from the press & fans so I can enjoy each team/rider for their own efforts.

[Cam D]

Just to break into the Ducati woes fixation for a moment - check out what Spies was putting up with at around 22 secs into: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cVfHqIo8TU

Talk about a jack-hammer enema...

,,If that footage is during the race or WUP,, it should take Spies right off of anyone's DOTM list. Who's responsible for such an unsorted/unbalanced/unworthy setup. The Yamaha seem sublime when setup correctly and Spies wins races.

gross oversight incompetence anyone? or something broke?

May have damaged the rear shock internals when he crashed? Or maybe the slipper clutch was playing up? I've seen these things cause the same problem with Motards before they are set up properly. Kind of looked like he was shut down (rear wheel driving the engine) still when it was playing up.

[chc-pr]

You would want a rider to fail just because his fans annoy you?

Not as such, which is why I said that I didn't have an issue with Rossi per se - and I keep catching myself when the arrogant statements are made. I just object to being told what I think by some sod whom I have never met and who thinks the whole world agrees with a single view point. I KNOW I am not alone in this, but those that keep doing it always want to make out that they are 'justified' in making teh claim that no-one this' or 'everyone that'. Speak for yourselves, but stop speaking for me - and countless other silent objectors.

On the other coin some of the Stoner fans are also really making it hard to just sit back and appreciate how the guy rides.

Yep, the Stoner bandwagon is getting to the same point that Rossi's was a while ago - and I have as much problem with that as I do with the Rossi one. In fact, this is just one example of the negative effect I feel Rossi has had on the sport and why I do NOT acept that he has been only good for the sport - but this is not the place to discuss that.

[Oscar]

On a related note, I wish people would stop assuming that what is good for Rossi/what Rossi supporters want is also good/wanted by everyone interested in MotoGP. It is just more of the same arrogance and it is really annoying.

A massive part of that syndrome is a product of the way that Dorna promoted the 'Rossi story' and certain influential journalists tagged along for the ride like dogs chasing a bitch in heat - not Rossi himself. There's no doubt that he is an attention-seeker, and it's served him and the sport very, very well - but Dorna completely failed to develop other story lines about other riders to the point where he became the centre of gravity of every news item, which is something he could never have done by his own devices.

It would be extremely churlish to deny that 'the Rossi story' lifted the profile of the sport hugely, from being a general media non-event populated by strange and unappealing people (or so one would have believed, for everywhere other than perhaps Italy and Spain, anyway) to a well-profiled international sport. Dorna has massively failed to build on that, though, and the aforementioned lazy journalists simply continued to bang out a few paragraphs about Rossi every week ('Rossi eats Toast for Breakfast'!) without looking for much else to write about, to expand and enrich the motoGp story. That a significant part of the population accepts uncritically the media-feed stuff, cheers when the media holds up the 'cheer' placard and claps when it holds up the 'Clap' placard, is human nature - hell, it if weren't, the reality T.V shows, the 'celebrities' who should fade as soon as they remember to put on their underpants, and most politicans (amongst others) would not infest our lives.

You can be annoyed at the flamboyance of Rossi's character if that's not your thing (and I personally prefer the more reserved types) but you can't blame a lazy and somewhat venial media on Rossi.

[Oscar]

,,If that footage is during the race or WUP,, it should take Spies right off of anyone's DOTM list. Who's responsible for such an unsorted/unbalanced/unworthy setup. The Yamaha seem sublime when setup correctly and Spies wins races.

gross oversight incompetence anyone? or something broke?

Of course, it COULD be that Spies is a Blues Brother and he was just shakin' a tail feather...