What would YOU do to save MotoGP

[Japhrodisiac]

Guys...stupidly long.

Fixed

[TwoStroke Institute]

Wow ! bet you're really good at diplomacy !

so you can cite two out of how many world wide that missed the chance to show their talent through lack of a recognisable path to the top ?..........or funds.

Never mind that Stoners parents laid everything on the line to give him a shot........not sure what Arthur or Jacks parents had to sacrifice, but I bet it wasn't light.....

Lets continue down this path and have riders have to front with wads of moolah to secure their ride, like Bradl.............and in the vein of F1.

The days of packing up your bags (for an Aussie) and heading over, working a shit job while you try to pick up a ride are long gone. The last person ( from Aus at least) to do that was Gardner. Now it costs hundreds of thousands.

Kudos to Wayne for putting it all on the line, like Stoners parents, to give his kid a shot.

When interviewed on TV, his estimated running costs bike and equipment, hotels, food fuel etc, etc, etc) for the season were $500 000 plus.

Meanwhile, motorcycle (in particular, sportsbikes) markets and intrest in this sport ( other than Spain and Italy)continue to dwindle, and general public intrest in the sport continues to wane due to poor tactics employed to generate said interest.

The numbers in attendance for the P.I GP is the equivelant of the crowd numbers for one or two AFL games........and if Stoner wasn't racing ?

Your answer is to get better accountants to show a better return for sponsorship signage in an ever more irrelevant (to the general public) sport.

You then propose to skim a couple of bucks off that revenue and give some poor kid a one off ride at his home GP on a second rate piece of machinery in the hope that his 28th place may inspire a team to pick him up.

Well done !....can see how the sport, industry and all involved will thrive and prosper on that.

Spoken like true middle-management/acountant material.



It's not about Dorna throwing money at the problem.......it's about someone setting rules in place that create a clear pathway to the elite class, and manufacturers producing a machine that is reasonable enough cost wise to encourage participation.


"Chinger version"............nice.........

Have a look at the AMA and ASBK..........that's what happens when interest in the sport is lost, and when manufacturers fail to participate at the level they should to generate the sales they so desperately need.......to be able to participate.

Surely your joking? If not you have appaling appreciation of history and no grasp of the basics of sports marketing.
Cite example of who didn't make it .....................well who ever had a go and is now back at home, fact is if they had a go that was their chance,
Wayne Gardner never packed his bags and headed off to Europe. Wayne is just another rider in a long line of Antipodeans who made a mark in Europe. Wayne's talent showed when he first hit Oran PK on a YZ125, then on the TZ250 that Ron Sumskis bought him, Tony Hatton recommended Wayne to Moriwaki-san and duly won the Suzuka 8Hour. Wayne rode with Moriwaki when he first went to the UK. He's not the only rider,right back to Jack Findlay, they all seemed to make it in GP's, but his path was different to Kevin Magee, Darryl Beattie and Peter Goddard who all went via Japan. Casey Stoner went via Europe/UK. Different paths but they all made it, so many seem to been able to find your invisable path to GP.
Having backpacked through Europe I know you can travel cheap if you want to and I can't imagine Wayne staying at the local youth hostel.
16GPs and million Euros to lease a Aprilia is about $90kAUD hardly going to make round or series sponsors recoil. MA/Honda Australia paid for a spare NSR250 for Darryl Beattie to ride in the 89GP, Darryl finished 12th . Suzuki Australia paid the Molenar team for a spare RGV 250 that Troy Bayliss rode to 4th in the early 90's. Both those results were good enough to ignite their respective international careers.Money well spent.
Lets not name the MX riders who forged a career in AMA, I would be typing for hours.
If your good enough, work hard enough and make the right choices doors will open.
AMA and ASBK is a separate story and heir failings have nothing to do with MOtoGP state of play.

[Hansd]

Honda and Yamaha will burn cubic dollars to develop their own

If they have the money to develop pneumatic valves, why would developing a desmo system pose a big(ger) problem?

[phoenix1]

Honda and Yamaha will burn cubic dollars to develop their own

If they have the money to develop pneumatic valves, why would developing a desmo system pose a big(ger) problem?

The manufacturers all lease the technology from the same intellectual property company (IIRC) or they used third party development with licensing. Might even be Geo Tech (Moto2 engine tuners) run by Osamu Goto who is an F1 pneumatic valve guru. Honda adapted the pneumatic system they developed from F1. That's why Yamaha were able to introduce pneumatic technology seamlessly before Honda. Yamaha basically bolted on a proven system. Honda developed their own technology. I'm assuming that Honda were developing a camless system, while the other manufacturers are using a more conventional cam pneumatic, but I'm not sure.

Only Honda have the money necessary to develop an entirely new valvetrain actuation system. I don't know the quality of desmo intellectual property for lease, but I doubt it is better than pneumatic tech for lease, otherwise the teams would have chosen desmo.

[Zaphod]

Wayne Gardner never packed his bags and headed off to Europe. Wayne is just another rider in a long line of Antipodeans who made a mark in Europe. Wayne's talent showed when he first hit Oran PK on a YZ125, then on the TZ250 that Ron Sumskis bought him, Tony Hatton recommended Wayne to Moriwaki-san and duly won the Suzuka 8Hour. Wayne rode with Moriwaki when he first went to the UK.

Wayne has stated in several interviews that no, he did not live in hostels, he was living in his car for the first bit of his Brittish adventure. Jack Findlay's era was vastly different to today, in that when you raced, you got payed (start money etc). Sponsors were not as vital as they are now, though he also spent many years working the off season for for bugger all so as to have a bike with wich he might be able to make as much money as possible during the racing season.

Doohan, Magee, Beattie, Goddard etc, largely came to be noticed at , what is now, the irrelevant Suzuka 8 hr........which illustrates the point I am trying to make.

You tell me the series that a rider can direct the money out of his own (and sponsors if he's lucky enough to have any !) pocket to ensure the best oportunity to make him/herself seen by manufacturers/teams ?

RBC cup is good for the Spaniards, a few Europeans.........and one or two Antipodeans lucky enough to have the funds to do it at such an early age (no disrespect to Arthur or Jack).

16GPs and million Euros to lease a Aprilia is about $90kAUD hardly going to make round or series sponsors recoil.

Is that all costs to lease a bike, all it's consumables and shipping from country to country ?..........how silly of me. I don't know why hundreds of thousands of GP hopefuls don't just front that cash themselves and get on it with it.

....or suposing that the little showcase works, how many of the 16 riders do you really think will have a good enough, one off performace to be snapped up ? It worked so well, that it hasn't worked, or been bothered with since Bayliss nearly 20 years ago.

MA/Honda Australia paid for a spare NSR250 for Darryl Beattie to ride in the 89GP, Darryl finished 12th . Suzuki Australia paid the Molenar team for a spare RGV 250 that Troy Bayliss rode to 4th in the early 90's. Both those results were good enough to ignite their respective international careers.Money well spent.

Isn't that, through their Australian agencies/arm, manufacturer support ?

AMA and ASBK is a separate story and heir failings have nothing to do with MOtoGP state of play.

You seem to be implying that MotoGP has nothing to do with manufacturers making money ?? Where does this magic money come from ? I would like some myself !!


I thought manufacturers ability to have a motoGP race program came from motorcycle sales, and the success there-of. If they're not marketing successfully in country after country, then they have less and less money to be able to play at motoGP, or even WSBK level ( Hello Suzuki !).

Then, as the local racing scene dies due to lack of investment in their own product,bike sales fall.....manufacturers don't even have the money to run a factory team in the most basic catagories ( Hello WSBK, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki..........or "Welcome to ASBK !") the local hero dissapears back to obscurity, and people care even less about Motorcycle racing than they ever did, MotoGP struggles to find the talent ( who have the money to pay for their own rides) ,sponsorship and TV rights to promote a series everybody (save the die-hards) lost interest in a long time ago.


.........wonder why so many went to MX from the AMA...............Oh, that's right ! It's a very well run series starting from local level where bikes are cheap and relatively equal, which then moves onto the National scene, where you can make a kind of living, which then feeds into the world scene.

Does that equal a better chance of being recognised and "making it"......or to use bean-counter talk, "A better return on your investment" ?

Fairly rhetorical, I know.

Sponsorship, T.V coverage is quite alive and well for nearly every catagory of the series as well.....especially from National on up.

....then there's SX and freestyle,......hell..even Trials riding is making a go of it thanks to it's local popularity.


How is SBK and motoGP doing again ?.......ah.....fighting over an ever decreasing piece of pie, and doing nothing to address the situation.......other than coming up with constant rule changes in the hope of finding an easy solution.

The technology in the sport has come a very long way.

Can't say the same for the governance, decision making and direction of it all.........that seems to be stuck, or going backwards.

Everybody (manufacturers very definately included) are continuing to milk the cow without feeding it.

[phoenix1]

Phoenix in my suggested series the factory's are not allowed to race, only to supply bikes and parts. I want it to be a prototype series I'm just trying to remove the manufacturers big budgets from the equation.

Right. Forgot they wouldn't be on the track. Still the same situation, though. No mods -- the manufacturers are happy supplying, all IRTA are competitive but bored. Extensive modification -- IRTA are not bored, but some IRTA teams become dominant and other IRTA teams backmark in anguish (similar to now).

When I point out various difficulties, I'm not shooting down your idea. Every racing formula since the dawn of time has had some fundamental flaw b/c racing formulas are essentially government (in private form). You only need to demonstrate how your idea has more benefits and less drawbacks than another system, imo. You could develop an idea from now until the day you pass on, someone will find a problem with it and label you a lunatic. That's government.

Since no idea is perfect, the people in power never listen until bankruptcy or revolution. Even if your idea is a pareto outcome. Don't ask me why government bureaucrats lack self-preservation. I can't tell you.

[yzr750]

Here you go,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHyes2regP0, job sorted
More info here http://continentalchampionshipracetech.weebly.com/

[Sloth27]

Here is Michael Czysz' take on the MotoGP situation with some suggestions for the formula.
http://club.motoczysz.com/

I found it to be really interesting blog about their experiences at IOMTT and Bonneville with the MotoCzysz E1 electric superbike. He has a very emotive writing style.

[tom]

Phoenix in my suggested series the factory's are not allowed to race, only to supply bikes and parts. I want it to be a prototype series I'm just trying to remove the manufacturers big budgets from the equation.

Right. Forgot they wouldn't be on the track. Still the same situation, though. No mods -- the manufacturers are happy supplying, all IRTA are competitive but bored. Extensive modification -- IRTA are not bored, but some IRTA teams become dominant and other IRTA teams backmark in anguish (similar to now)...

Not entirely the same as now. My goal isn't to equalise all the teams but to level the playing field on an opportunity basis and I believe my model would do that. At the moment no private team can ever, in their wildest dreams, compete with Honda, Yamaha and to a lesser extent Ducati. And in the long run Ducati and to a lesser extent Yamaha can not compete with Honda (just like Suzuki and Kawasaki). With my proposal any team has the possibility of being competitive, many of them wont be and some of them may even dominate for periods but all of them will be living within the series means. They will all be competing for the same ticket, TV and advertising dollars, and will earn those dollars based on their ingenuity and hard work in the marketing and technical fields. None of these teams will have to compete against a powerful factory running a loss making endeavour. And that's the crucial difference, teams can be attracted into the sport by the possibility of being competitive, at the moment that is just not the case, any new player entering the field knows they can not be competitive.

In the short term Moto2 has worked extremely well, grids are packed, chassis innovation and variety are rife and the show is spectacular. In the long run however I fear it may suffer, as the dominant suppliers can favour their chosen teams and effectively load the dice. The CRT class is the same the idea is there its just that there is nothing stopping factory's like Aprilla doing what they did in 250's and ordaining the winner thus my suggestion of forcing all suppliers to make all their parts available to everyone. All the elements are there and proven within the various categories and series, they just need to add a few tweaks here and there to iron out the terminal flaws and apply it to the premier class.

No problems at all with finding flaws in my model, its all interesting and gets the thought juices flowing. and I agree with you entirely re your government analogy but that's a whole other story:)

[mmmexico]

First of all I have no interest in addressing the question, because it doesn't need "saving". Even in these dire economic times, races are being run, the grids are filling up, there is worldwide television coverage, and there are websites all over the internet devoted to this tiny part of the larger motorsport "industry". I can offer some suggestions about how all of this would be vastly more entertaining to me, and that is my primary interest.

First, I would separate (much more distinctly) the rider's championship from the manufacturer's championship. On this board, and at the racetrack there are two kinds of enthusiasts. Obviously there are fans of specific riders, and there are the fans of the machinery. As things are presently organized, both are a little frustrated. Machinery is being slowly but surely simplified to keep costs just south of a space shuttle. Fans of the riders are left with the uneasy feeling that the rider's championship is decided largely by who the factories hire, instead of who has the greatest skill, bravery, etc....

Last year I watched a couple of Moto 2 races. They were spectacular. Very close racing, essentially identical bikes, identical electronics, etc...It made for great races, and at the end of the race I had a clear belief that the best rider had won the event. This is how the rider's championship should be decided, and this should be the premier event at every Moto GP meeting. The very best riders on essentially identical bikes. I don't really care about the mechanical formula for the bikes, but they should be fast enough to provide a significant challenge....something probably bigger than Moto 2, but along the same formula, i.e. identical motors, electronics, tires, etc...I would leave the details to the guys that created Moto 2. Who wouldn't like to see Rossi on a bike identical to Stoner? You can fill in your preferred combinations.

And don't start complaining about the problem with contracts, or these these precious athletes couldn't possibly run two races on a single weekend. They can run two races, motorcycle racers from the beginning of the sport ran two, three or four races in a weekend, and they did it most weekends of the year. Keep in mind this is what I want, I'm really not in a position to impose this plan on the motorcycle world.

The manufacturer's championship is up to them. Let them do whatever they want. Hire whoever they want, impose whatever technical specifications they want. Spend as much money as they want. I don't think that anyone will care. The rider's championship will be the main event.

[Flyinlow27]

KERS.

I want it in motoGP.

more passing on the straights = more passing on the brakes = more diving back underneath

less front runners running away with it = CRTs staying closer to the lead group.

R and D with actual commercial application.

Fans love the idea of "boost" on demand. Its in every loosely based racing game so it wouldn't take fans long to understand it conceptually.

[Gustav O]

KTM had a similar system in 125s that was forbidden for some weird reason.

[Cam D]

First of all I have no interest in addressing the question, because it doesn't need "saving". Even in these dire economic times, races are being run, the grids are filling up, there is worldwide television coverage, and there are websites all over the internet devoted to this tiny part of the larger motorsport "industry". I can offer some suggestions about how all of this would be vastly more entertaining to me, and that is my primary interest.

First, I would separate (much more distinctly) the rider's championship from the manufacturer's championship. On this board, and at the racetrack there are two kinds of enthusiasts. Obviously there are fans of specific riders, and there are the fans of the machinery. As things are presently organized, both are a little frustrated. Machinery is being slowly but surely simplified to keep costs just south of a space shuttle. Fans of the riders are left with the uneasy feeling that the rider's championship is decided largely by who the factories hire, instead of who has the greatest skill, bravery, etc....

Last year I watched a couple of Moto 2 races. They were spectacular. Very close racing, essentially identical bikes, identical electronics, etc...It made for great races, and at the end of the race I had a clear belief that the best rider had won the event. This is how the rider's championship should be decided, and this should be the premier event at every Moto GP meeting. The very best riders on essentially identical bikes. I don't really care about the mechanical formula for the bikes, but they should be fast enough to provide a significant challenge....something probably bigger than Moto 2, but along the same formula, i.e. identical motors, electronics, tires, etc...I would leave the details to the guys that created Moto 2. Who wouldn't like to see Rossi on a bike identical to Stoner? You can fill in your preferred combinations.

And don't start complaining about the problem with contracts, or these these precious athletes couldn't possibly run two races on a single weekend. They can run two races, motorcycle racers from the beginning of the sport ran two, three or four races in a weekend, and they did it most weekends of the year. Keep in mind this is what I want, I'm really not in a position to impose this plan on the motorcycle world.

The manufacturer's championship is up to them. Let them do whatever they want. Hire whoever they want, impose whatever technical specifications they want. Spend as much money as they want. I don't think that anyone will care. The rider's championship will be the main event.

That's well thought out. I guess it poses the question of which has a greater interest value or a larger viewing group.... the riders or the machinery?

[Flyinlow27]

except for why would the factories stay if it was all spec machinery?

I think you're solution drifts too closely to NASCAR and farther away from F1.

As much as I would love to see all the riders on equal machinery to really dice out who is the best, you will immediately run into problems like...

who is the bike designed around?
what tires will it use?

As we've clearly seen via CS/VR there are very different riding styles in MotoGP. To force a spec bike will only exploit the rider whose style benefits most. Now we have riders being designed (or prospected) based around the design of a bike (Honda/Pedrosa anyone?)

Pinnacle of racing means run what ya brung. Its rider vs rider, factory vs factory.

[cmb]

All bikes need to be CRT or all bikes need to be factory no mix of bikes. Motogp is a total waste of sponsor money if you are not a repsol or other big factory sponsor. I just don't see how you would want to race for a team that has no chance at all. When you race you race to win and there is motogp problem there are only 4 bikes capable of winning and the rest are fillers. Motogp just became WWE wrestling it's a show no longer a race.

[JanBros]

All bikes need to be CRT or all bikes need to be factory no mix of bikes. Motogp is a total waste of sponsor money if you are not a repsol or other big factory sponsor. I just don't see how you would want to race for a team that has no chance at all. When you race you race to win and there is motogp problem there are only 4 bikes capable of winning and the rest are fillers. Motogp just became WWE wrestling it's a show no longer a race.

and how is this going to save MotoGP

if it were only factory bikes this year, there would only be 12 ...
next year, when Ducati drop's out because of the bad results and the rev-limit they don't want, there will be only 8 ...

Current factory prototypes are history, they are stretching their legs for the last time.

And why people race on a bike that can not win ? Because they thinck they can do better than the guy next to them on an evenly "bad" bike and be noticed by the front running teams. What if no one would do that ? Then there would be no Pramac, Tech3,... team. there would be just 4 bikes on the grid ...

[eddahenry]

what i would do
No Leasing of bikes you buy them you own them
Limit on the cost of a factory bike
keep the rules the same i dont care what just chose one and stick with it.
with this every year higher better placed satellite teams sell there bikes to say newer teams and so forth
the factorys sell bikes (and lots of racing kits and spares to keep them going)
and you expand the grids with older bikes that may not be as fast but close. wel closer than CRTs are

[JanBros]

EDITED BY KROPOTKIN:

Sorry Jan, but that was just some link spam which I deleted, and had to edit your comment too. Sorry!

[yzr750]

I think they should allow thesehttp://www.suterracing.ch/en/suter500.html.
I wonder how much they cost?

[Pantah]

I think they should allow thesehttp://www.suterracing.ch/en/suter500.html.
I wonder how much they cost?

Ahhhhh...... 500cc 2Strokers.......I was at the first race where the 4 strokes ran (Suzuka) and I reckon something has been missing since then........if 2stroke wasnt treated as a dirty word then that could be the answer....in my opinion,anyway. They were a lot of fun to watch , smell and hear

[oldboyonrgv]

Thats the answer, bring back the two strokes!!

[Squidpuppet]

[Cappra]

Define 'save'. Is there a fundamental problem or is the current situation the normal ebb and flow of life and financial/economic affairs?

Can 'it' be saved? Can they 'grow the pie' or should they maintain the size or should they each take a smaller slice?

I think answering questions like this will be the difference between wisdom and panic. At the moment I think we are seeing more selfishness and panic rather than wisdom or 'the future'.

The other problem is that there are so many stakeholders with so many different, conflicting and competing, and yet symbiotic, needs. To get harmony and timely consensus is a mammoth task. Will we use leadership, wisdom, tact and diplomacy or use power and authority, and 'one man's vision'?