Adaptable Rossi Revisit

[skid11]

It now is apparent to me that he is actually a very narrow champion in the sense that he has to be on a bike that exactly suits his needs. He has been fortunate to enjoy that luxury until last year.

Come one! he's won 7 premier class titles on a 500cc, 2-stroke Honda, a 990cc 4-stroke Honda, 990cc Yamaha and an 800cc Yamaha - who can come close to that for number of titles and diversity of bikes that they won them on?
Regardless of what happens from here on, Rossi's place in history as one of the all-time greats is not in question.

Amen to that
Unless your knowledge of motorcycle racing is just two seasons?

[Desmo44]

Come one! he's won 7 premier class titles on a 500cc, 2-stroke Honda, a 990cc 4-stroke Honda, 990cc Yamaha and an 800cc Yamaha - who can come close to that for number of titles and diversity of bikes that they won them on?

I totally agree and never questioned those achievements. I simply said he needs a bike that suits his needs and the Ducati does not. He is apparently not the guy that can jump on any bike and win like most thought he was capable of doing. This is a legacy changer, not an accomplishment eliminator.

Regardless of what happens from here on, Rossi's place in history as one of the all-time greats is not in question.

Again, you are the only one bringing that up. His record is safe and well earned. However, his legacy has been altered and I don't think he will ever regain his competitiveness no mater what bike he is on. His biggest advantage was his mental supremacy and he no longer has that, probably not with a new bike and certainly not with the likes of Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa and ? around. His relative performance on the Ducati tends to prove that. Having the right bike enabled his championships, but it was his mental supremacy that ensured them.

I'm not anti Rossi. I've tried to explain his situation to the point of excuse making. I've quit trying, just like he has.

[skid11]

Come one! he's won 7 premier class titles on a 500cc, 2-stroke Honda, a 990cc 4-stroke Honda, 990cc Yamaha and an 800cc Yamaha - who can come close to that for number of titles and diversity of bikes that they won them on?

I totally agree and never questioned those achievements. I simply said he needs a bike that suits his needs and the Ducati does not. He is apparently not the guy that can jump on any bike and win like most thought he was capable of doing. This is a legacy changer, not an accomplishment eliminator.

Regardless of what happens from here on, Rossi's place in history as one of the all-time greats is not in question.

Again, you are the only one bringing that up. His record is safe and well earned. However, his legacy has been altered and I don't think he will ever regain his competitiveness no mater what bike he is on. His biggest advantage was his mental supremacy and he no longer has that, probably not with a new bike and certainly not with the likes of Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa and ? around. His relative performance on the Ducati tends to prove that. Having the right bike enabled his championships, but it was his mental supremacy that ensured them.

I'm not anti Rossi. I've tried to explain his situation to the point of excuse making. I've quit trying, just like he has.

Not the only one .
So answer the first question bearing in mind he switched from Honda to Yamaha?

[Flyinlow27]

Come one! he's won 7 premier class titles on a 500cc, 2-stroke Honda, a 990cc 4-stroke Honda, 990cc Yamaha and an 800cc Yamaha - who can come close to that for number of titles and diversity of bikes that they won them on?

I totally agree and never questioned those achievements. I simply said he needs a bike that suits his needs and the Ducati does not. He is apparently not the guy that can jump on any bike and win like most thought he was capable of doing. This is a legacy changer, not an accomplishment eliminator.

Regardless of what happens from here on, Rossi's place in history as one of the all-time greats is not in question.

Again, you are the only one bringing that up. His record is safe and well earned. However, his legacy has been altered and I don't think he will ever regain his competitiveness no mater what bike he is on. His biggest advantage was his mental supremacy and he no longer has that, probably not with a new bike and certainly not with the likes of Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa and ? around. His relative performance on the Ducati tends to prove that. Having the right bike enabled his championships, but it was his mental supremacy that ensured them.

I'm not anti Rossi. I've tried to explain his situation to the point of excuse making. I've quit trying, just like he has.

I'm not sure that mental supremacy will make the competition slower. Not in this universe. Is Rossi's confidence of being the best on the grid severely damaged? Yes. This affects Rossi's performance, not CS27, JL99, DP26 or anyone else's.

[eddahenry]

OH GOD
someone is going to bring up LS08 again
yes rossi was great
time to move one

[Desmo44]

I'm not sure that mental supremacy will make the competition slower. Not in this universe. Is Rossi's confidence of being the best on the grid severely damaged? Yes. This affects Rossi's performance, not CS27, JL99, DP26 or anyone else's.

I'm speaking of Rossi's former mental state, not his competitors. Not sure where you came up with that. He had supreme confidence and he has lost it. Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa (and the next fast gun?) will ensure that it will not return. He's not dumb enough to kid himself that any bike will return the days of old. You have to have mental supremacy to be supreme. I'm afraid it's over.

[skid11]

I'm not sure that mental supremacy will make the competition slower. Not in this universe. Is Rossi's confidence of being the best on the grid severely damaged? Yes. This affects Rossi's performance, not CS27, JL99, DP26 or anyone else's.

I'm speaking of Rossi's former mental state, not his competitors. Not sure where you came up with that. He had supreme confidence and he has lost it. Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa (and the next fast gun?) will ensure that it will not return. He's not dumb enough to kid himself that any bike will return the days of old. You have to have mental supremacy to be supreme. I'm afraid it's over.

Not answering the question though.So as you say move on

[CLX]

I don't write Rossi off, but the season and two races he has spent aboard the Ducati has done more damage to his reputation than anyone, especially me, could ever imagine.

Yep, let's wipe off 104 wins and 9 championships because he's on a bike that he doesn't get along with... right...

You have misunderstood me.
I take nothing away from him. He was the guys who could do everything on anything to a guy who can do all that, except onboard a Ducati only one guy could win with.

[Desmo44]

Not answering the question though.

What question?

who can come close to that for number of titles and diversity of bikes that they won them on?

That's not the point. Agostini? We're talking about the here and now. Answer this question: who can come close to that for number of titles and diversity of bikes that they won them on, but couldn't ride a Ducati? Another meaningless question. You are right, lets move on.

[Grahluk]

Oscar! Thank you for that write up. Worthy of publication and as far as I can see a fair assessment of things even with an acknowledged favored rider. Intelligently put and as I see it hardly debatable.

[tom]

Honestly this thread could really get wrapped up with this link to the main site --- > http://motomatters.com/analysis/2012/04/28/2012_jerez_motogp_saturday_round_up_of_f.html especially this bit;

And that is where Valentino Rossi is falling short. Rossi simply cannot ride the bike, and his crew, led by the legendary Jeremy Burgess, simply cannot find a setup for him that allows him to ride it. Rossi had tried Hayden's setup, but the Italian cannot replicate Hayden's style, which allows the American to get to full lean much quicker without running wide. Rossi is losing too much time right there, in the transition from braking to full lean, and his crew has not been able to find a solution to it.

The problems for Burgess and co, according to Rossi, are the same as those of Rossi himself. They have all spent plenty of time on different bikes, and learning how to get the best from those different bikes, but it turns out that the difference between those bikes was not as great as they thought. The style of bike - the design philosophy and direction, if you will - was more or less the same, so lessons learned on one bike could be adapted to the next bike with very little difficulty. The same could not be said for the Ducati: it required a completely different mindset, and left both Rossi and his crew quite bewildered.

The situation is starting to wear Rossi down, and was probably made worse rather than better by the Italian's promising time in the wet on Friday. Going from 2nd and thoughts of a podium to 13th on the grid, last of the Ducatis and stuck behind a CRT bike is a blow to Rossi's confidence that should not be underestimated. Rossi's demeanor at his daily press briefing was flatter than usual, the spirit slowly draining from him with each passing debrief to talk about how he still can't ride the bike.

Really, need any more be said? It's from the horses mouth and it addresses this thread perfectly.

[JanBros]

this forum is about "intelligent debate". Now I don't mind it's not as long as it is entertaining/funny, but these last pages it's neither, it's simply boring fanboy-isme.

this topic is about "adaptable Rossi" . Apparently he is not : If it takes somebody 20 races to realise he needs to adapt, my commone sence tells me that somebody isn't very adaptable

Actually I'm wrong turns out Rossi is "quite satisfied" with his performance. So as long as he's happy...
[url]
http://www.bikesportnews.com/news-detai ... ewsid=6867
[/url]

[Rossifumi]

That's not the point. Agostini? We're talking about the here and now. Answer this question: who can come close to that for number of titles and diversity of bikes that they won them on, but couldn't ride a Ducati? Another meaningless question. You are right, lets move on.

you described Rossi as 'a very narrow champion' in terms of bike he could win on - compared to who? Agostini won most of his titles on a multi-cylinder MV (against ancient single cylinder Manx Nortons) and one title on a Yamaha. Yes, Rossi is struggling with the Ducati (he's also 33 and recently had a bad shoulder injury, badly broken leg and was involved in the fatal accident of one of his friends - so has most probably lost his edge regardless of bike) but compared to any other rider in history he still looks like the most adaptable.

[Oscar]

compared to any other rider in history he still looks like the most adaptable.

Not by a long shot. Hailwood: WC's in 250, 350, 500 and TT, and Formula 2. WC's in two different classes in the same year - twice. Wins in 3 GP classes on the same day. Wins on two different brands of 500cc bike in the same year. Wins on three different brands of bike in the same year.

[Rossifumi]

compared to any other rider in history he still looks like the most adaptable.

Not by a long shot. Hailwood: WC's in 250, 350, 500 and TT, and Formula 2. WC's in two different classes in the same year - twice. Wins in 3 GP classes on the same day. Wins on two different brands of 500cc bike in the same year. Wins on three different brands of bike in the same year.

Rossi won on 125's and 250's and the Suzuka 8hrs on a superbike. However, for arguments sake let's say that Hailwood and Agostini were more adaptable - that's 2 riders in history and none in the modern era. The comment about Rossi being 'a narrow champion' just doesn't stand up to any objective analysis.

[motogpmd]

Rossi won on 125's and 250's and the Suzuka 8hrs on a superbike. However, for arguments sake let's say that Hailwood and Agostini were more adaptable - that's 2 riders in history and none in the modern era. The comment about Rossi being 'a narrow champion' just doesn't stand up to any objective analysis.

The point of David Emmet's excellent article is that Rossi has only won championships in the senior class on Japanese style bikes. The Ducati is a very different animal, and only Stoner has won championships on both style of bikes in the modern era. So there is some justification for saying that Rossi is a "narrow champion".

[Oscar]

compared to any other rider in history he still looks like the most adaptable.

Not by a long shot. Hailwood: WC's in 250, 350, 500 and TT, and Formula 2. WC's in two different classes in the same year - twice. Wins in 3 GP classes on the same day. Wins on two different brands of 500cc bike in the same year. Wins on three different brands of bike in the same year.

Rossi won on 125's and 250's and the Suzuka 8hrs on a superbike. However, for arguments sake let's say that Hailwood and Agostini were more adaptable - that's 2 riders in history and none in the modern era. The comment about Rossi being 'a narrow champion' just doesn't stand up to any objective analysis.

Ah, mea culpa. I mistakenly took 'history' to be defined as the record of events rather than the record of events only incorporating Rossi. I should have realised.

[Sloth27]

compared to any other rider in history he still looks like the most adaptable.

Not by a long shot. Hailwood: WC's in 250, 350, 500 and TT, and Formula 2. WC's in two different classes in the same year - twice. Wins in 3 GP classes on the same day. Wins on two different brands of 500cc bike in the same year. Wins on three different brands of bike in the same year.

Hailwood is the greatest of all time in my mind. Long before my time but he could ride anything faster than anyone.

[Oscar]

Hailwood is the greatest of all time in my mind. Long before my time but he could ride anything faster than anyone.

I saw him at Amaroo in the Castrol 6-hour - his actual 'comeback' race to racing - and with everybody else in the crowd, was just mesmerised (and we were, to an individual, herbiferously altered, pharmaceutically enhanced and alcoholically endowed, so paying attention was a feat in itself). I think the greatest quote of the effect he had came from the crew chief of one of the other racers, who, when asked by the rider's wife 'how are we doing?' said: 'I don't know, I can't take my eyes off Hailwood'. He would cut through the pack around the loop like a swan sailing through a group of duck's bums, arse glued to the seat and knees glued to the tank and with the inside pipe a shadow's thickness above the bitumen. Think Nureyev vs. a rugby scrum and you more or less have a handle on it.

And that was him riding for fun. Not too long afterwards, he got more serious at the IoM, even if it was on another back-room cobbled together Ducati - and the rest is history, except that Rossi wasn't there so it doesn't count. Apparently.

[Sloth27]

Hailwood is the greatest of all time in my mind. Long before my time but he could ride anything faster than anyone.

I saw him at Amaroo in the Castrol 6-hour - his actual 'comeback' race to racing - and with everybody else in the crowd, was just mesmerised (and we were, to an individual, herbiferously altered, pharmaceutically enhanced and alcoholically endowed, so paying attention was a feat in itself). I think the greatest quote of the effect he had came from the crew chief of one of the other racers, who, when asked by the rider's wife 'how are we doing?' said: 'I don't know, I can't take my eyes off Hailwood'. He would cut through the pack around the loop like a swan sailing through a group of duck's bums, arse glued to the seat and knees glued to the tank and with the inside pipe a shadow's thickness above the bitumen. Think Nureyev vs. a rugby scrum and you more or less have a handle on it.

And that was him riding for fun. Not too long afterwards, he got more serious at the IoM, even if it was on another back-room cobbled together Ducati - and the rest is history, except that Rossi wasn't there so it doesn't count. Apparentlisy.

Haha, even Amaroo is before my time but my dad and uncle used to go there a lot. Hailwood vs Rossi on an ill handling Ducati, I know where my money would be.

Apologies if deemed off-topic by some...

[Rossifumi]

Ah, mea culpa. I mistakenly took 'history' to be defined as the record of events rather than the record of events only incorporating Rossi. I should have realised.

Jeez Oscar! I'm aknowledging that there's a case for Agostini and/or Hailwood being more adaptable but it doesn't take away from the evidence that Rossi has shown himself to be adaptable. The title of the thread is 'adaptable Rossi' not 'who is the most adaptable rider in history'

[Rossifumi]

except that Rossi wasn't there so it doesn't count. Apparently.

I think you take the prize for the most deliberately provocative poster on the forum - this thread was about Rossi; read the title.....what was that about 'intelligent debate'......

[Sloth27]

except that Rossi wasn't there so it doesn't count. Apparently.

I think you take the prize for the most deliberately provocative poster on the forum - this thread was about Rossi; read the title.....what was that about 'intelligent debate'......

To determine what 'adaptable' is, I think it's fair to do some comparisons with other riders who have proven adaptable. The problem is that it might be more than adapting to suit the Ducati, more like reinventing Rossi's riding style. Very serious challenge to do it but Rossi's comments suggest this is now his primary focus so the next few races could be telling.

[Grahluk]

Is this thread some retrospective on Rossi's adaptability or another angle of fire on his present situation? If it's to present an argument that he is/was a shallow talent that simply got lucky with a string of identically behaving perfect machines then intelligent debate has left the room. If it's to say maybe that every tough guy eventually meets someone(something) that can knock his block off then yes I'd agree. The Desmo is a doozy that has confounded all expectations of what a proper racing motorcycle should be for the guy. Up until now we only have the outside view of what's been going on in his head and in the pitbox. As Sloth27 just pointed out the latest is that he may now finally be conceding that it's not going to come his way. Previous results and statements looked to me as if it was refusal. He knows what a good bike is and that is not it and put the notes on the white board for Ducati to make suit. Now maybe Ducati can't or won't make such a bike and Rossi can't or wouldn't settle with what was given him. Looks like he's going to have to try and adapt from here on. Maybe Ducati will slowly bring things more to his liking but he will surely have to bring his hand more to the bike's liking. Simply not being readily adaptable to the Ducati to me is hardly the mark of an inflexible rider. It's stunted everyone's ability including the guy who did best on it. As far as Rossi's career adaptability I think going from season one learn to season two title win all the way up through classes, Domination on two brands of 990's and showing the new hot shots that the welcome matt was not going to be put out in the 800 era should suffice as an example of adaptability. GP technologies have changed and churned plenty since 1996 and to be at or near the top that whole time would require a pretty adaptable capability. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[ducati1098s]

Is this thread some retrospective on Rossi's adaptability or another angle of fire on his present situation? If it's to present an argument that he is/was a shallow talent that simply got lucky with a string of identically behaving perfect machines then intelligent debate has left the room. If it's to say maybe that every tough guy eventually meets someone(something) that can knock his block off then yes I'd agree. The Desmo is a doozy that has confounded all expectations of what a proper racing motorcycle should be for the guy. Up until now we only have the outside view of what's been going on in his head and in the pitbox. As Sloth27 just pointed out the latest is that he may now finally be conceding that it's not going to come his way. Previous results and statements looked to me as if it was refusal. He knows what a good bike is and that is not it and put the notes on the white board for Ducati to make suit. Now maybe Ducati can't or won't make such a bike and Rossi can't or wouldn't settle with what was given him. Looks like he's going to have to try and adapt from here on. Maybe Ducati will slowly bring things more to his liking but he will surely have to bring his hand more to the bike's liking. Simply not being readily adaptable to the Ducati to me is hardly the mark of an inflexible rider. It's stunted everyone's ability including the guy who did best on it. As far as Rossi's career adaptability I think going from season one learn to season two title win all the way up through classes, Domination on two brands of 990's and showing the new hot shots that the welcome matt was not going to be put out in the 800 era should suffice as an example of adaptability. GP technologies have changed and churned plenty since 1996 and to be at or near the top that whole time would require a pretty adaptable capability. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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