Ducati goings on. Part 2.

[Cam D]

http://www.sportrider.com/news/146_12040_valentino_rossi_tries_to_calm_the_ducati_waters/index.html

Just a bit more infor about what the riders are asking for.

[tom]

Vales fastest lap was 0.3 seconds faster than Nicky's and his fastest two laps were the last two. He lost 1.3 seconds a lap from the start to the race to the end so his story about this being the first time testing 'Nicky type' settings and liking this new direction adds up. He needs to drop 0.9 seconds a lap off his best time to match the front runners best times and fight for the lead, its a lot but I'm ever the optimist so I haven't given up hope yet.

[Oscar]

Over on GpWeek, there's a quote from Rossi: ( http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=9 )

"From the start we have looked for a setting to create a feeling I have had with bikes in the past. It was not a success"

One wonders whether this will have del Torchio smiling, or looking at the expense sheet for the last fifteen or so months and going ballistic in a way that would make the Hitler parody look like a Bollywood version of 'Mary Poppins'. I somehow feel that Preziosi won't feel desperately inclined to stand Rossi a drink at the bar for this one at this time, either.

[Tourn46]

Vales fastest lap was 0.3 seconds faster than Nicky's and his fastest two laps were the last two. He lost 1.3 seconds a lap from the start to the race to the end so his story about this being the first time testing 'Nicky type' settings and liking this new direction adds up. He needs to drop 0.9 seconds a lap off his best time to match the front runners best times and fight for the lead, its a lot but I'm ever the optimist so I haven't given up hope yet.

I think that's actually one positive that the VR46 side of the Ducati garage can take from Jerez and Qatar, in that they have managed to stay pretty consistent throughout the whole race, and as you pointed out, actually faster at the end. Whereas Hayden faded pretty rapidly despite having that early pace.

Of course they need to drop a fair few tenths to make any real progress, but I do still feel there is 'something' there to work with. I'm still very optimistic that things will turn around cosiderably (maybe not wins this year) and be a lot closer to the leaders.

Alex Briggs seemed pretty adamant that they did not use Hayden's settings when Krop suggested it on Twitter - so I think we can assume it's somewhere in the same direction, but certainly some differences.

[Cam D]

Vales fastest lap was 0.3 seconds faster than Nicky's and his fastest two laps were the last two. He lost 1.3 seconds a lap from the start to the race to the end so his story about this being the first time testing 'Nicky type' settings and liking this new direction adds up. He needs to drop 0.9 seconds a lap off his best time to match the front runners best times and fight for the lead, its a lot but I'm ever the optimist so I haven't given up hope yet.

I think that's actually one positive that the VR46 side of the Ducati garage can take from Jerez and Qatar, in that they have managed to stay pretty consistent throughout the whole race, and as you pointed out, actually faster at the end. Whereas Hayden faded pretty rapidly despite having that early pace.

Of course they need to drop a fair few tenths to make any real progress, but I do still feel there is 'something' there to work with. I'm still very optimistic that things will turn around cosiderably (maybe not wins this year) and be a lot closer to the leaders.

Alex Briggs seemed pretty adamant that they did not use Hayden's settings when Krop suggested it on Twitter - so I think we can assume it's somewhere in the same direction, but certainly some differences.

Rossi himself confirmed it when asked..... I thought it was interesting that Alex denied it. From GPone.
So you borrowed from Hayden's setup?

"Nicky has been working in this direction since the tests, and I already wanted to try his settings again on Friday, but the rain didn't allow me the chance. We were unlucky. But I still have to adjust to his different setup, and that's why I struggled a little in the beginning of the race. But once I got into my rhythm, I did some interesting lap times, in line with those fighting for sixth place."

Read more: http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/20120 ... z1tWeMyH4k

[ducati1098s]

Over on GpWeek, there's a quote from Rossi: ( http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=9 )

"From the start we have looked for a setting to create a feeling I have had with bikes in the past. It was not a success"

One wonders whether this will have del Torchio smiling, or looking at the expense sheet for the last fifteen or so months and going ballistic in a way that would make the Hitler parody look like a Bollywood version of 'Mary Poppins'. I somehow feel that Preziosi won't feel desperately inclined to stand Rossi a drink at the bar for this one at this time, either.

WTF are you talking about Oscar? Rossi is not saying "Ive made a mistake trying to develop the bike towards my liking, strengths and abilities this last 18 months..."

What he is actually clearly saying here (in light of the context) is "I have given up hope that Ducati will ever build me the bike I want and so now Im going to have to make do with what I've got."

I think his change of attitude is very telling re what Ducati have coming re development parts ie very little. Rossi has clearly given up on the Ducati as a development project and now he has decided to just ride the season out and try and retain as much self respect and pride whilst doing so. I note that David via twitter is reporting that very little is coming in time for Estoril and I suspect Ducati may themselves be beginning to think post Rossi and shelve the continuing spend trying to get him going faster. This is a short sighted take on things IMHO as Rossi has clearly made the Ducati better (I know the times dont speak as to that but Hayden has gone on record as saying that the GP12 is the best Ducati he has ever ridden).

Rossi now seems intent on trying to get his Yamaha seat back (see coomenst re Lorenzo in article below)

http://www.gpone.com/index.php/20120429 ... trada.html

[redmike34]

I think his change of attitude is very telling re what Ducati have coming re development parts ie very little. Rossi has clearly given up on the Ducati as a development project and now he has decided to just ride the season out and try and retain as much self respect and pride whilst doing so. I note that David via twitter is reporting that very little is coming in time for Estoril and I suspect Ducati may themselves be beginning to think post Rossi and shelve the continuing spend trying to get him going faster. This is a short sighted take on things IMHO as Rossi has clearly made the Ducati better (I know the times dont speak as to that but Hayden has gone on record as saying that the GP12 is the best Ducati he has ever ridden).

I find Hayden's assertion that this is the best Ducati he's ridden interesting. Jerez was a wet race last year, so things aren't comparable, but in 2010, the race was ~16 seconds faster than this year, and Hayden finished in 4th place, only 9 seconds off the winner. This year, he's 8th place and almost 29 seconds from the winner. So in two years, while the winner lost ~16 seconds, Hayden lost ~36...

[dave_m]

I find Hayden's assertion that this is the best Ducati he's ridden interesting. Jerez was a wet race last year, so things aren't comparable, but in 2010, the race was ~16 seconds faster than this year, and Hayden finished in 4th place, only 9 seconds off the winner. This year, he's 8th place and almost 29 seconds from the winner. So in two years, while the winner lost ~16 seconds, Hayden lost ~36...

I'm not sure the idea that this Ducati is the best Hayden has ridden means that Ducati haven't still fallen further behind Honda and Yamaha. Interesting that you noted how far Hayden has been off the winning time as well. I looked it up, and Hayden has not been within 20 seconds of the winners time since 2010, when he did it 9 times. So unless he slowed down in 2011 just like Rossi, it appears that was the year Ducati really became uncompetitive.

[Grahluk]

Interesting line of examination about Ducati. I might chalk some of the backwards motion compared to 2010 in that there was a lot things changing around on the bike in search of a clue. Less so with Hayden but still he was either managing with 2010 leftovers or new unfamiliar parts that had inconclusive benefits. The other factory bikes though seemed to be going from strength to strength so any minor improvements Ducati made were outdistanced by those of the others making it look like they were plain going backwards rather than testing and making small progress. There's a lot of different ways to measure progress and it's hard to see right now other than bold face results. One thing I don't know if it's been commented on that I definitely see as a massive improvement to back up Hayden's assertion is what Rossi coined last year as "the facking black hole". They're still having problems in corners but since winter tests to now it seems they are crashing much less. How many crashes have all the Ducs had this year compared to last at this time? Maybe that's what Hayden is feeling better about. It might not be as pliable a tool as they would like but might be less likely to dump them on their ass without warning.

[Spinmaster]

IMO its a massive injustice to speak to Hayden's place and the going on's at Ducati. He's had zero input at Ducati. Heck, he's had zero input his entire MotoGP career. He's been team mates with Rossi (lead rider), Biaggi (lead rider), Pedrosa (unspoken but we all know he was the lead rider from day one), Stoner (lead rider), and again Rossi (lead rider). Success of a bike has never been his to claim and failure of a bike has never been his to burden. His place in the order of finish so far this year speaks more to his adapting as best he can (something he's had to do his entire career) while his current team mate has not (something the GOAT should be able to realize faster than he has) . No more, no less.

[Cam D]

Some more comments from Valentinohttp://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=9

[Faster1]

WTF are you talking about Oscar? Rossi is not saying "Ive made a mistake trying to develop the bike towards my liking, strengths and abilities this last 18 months..."

What he is actually clearly saying here (in light of the context) is "I have given up hope that Ducati will ever build me the bike I want and so now Im going to have to make do with what I've got."
(I know the times dont speak as to that but Hayden has gone on record as saying that the GP12 is the best Ducati he has ever ridden).

Rossi now seems intent on trying to get his Yamaha seat back (see coomenst re Lorenzo in article below)

ducat11098,, respect and all,, but I thought that this was the one place where where any talk at all about Rossi ever returning to Yamaha or Honda would stop as fast as it started. There are far too many real reasons why that won't happen, ever! (See Davids story) And Rossi above all knows it. All of those rumors have been started and perpetuated by dipsh*t psudo journalists, hell bent to break a story that doesn't exist.

And with all that has been written about the Rossi saga, just about NOTHING can be confirmed about the problem or the solution or the future of VR (David laid out a few POSSIBLE directions). IMO (which is as right or wrong as anyone's) VR hasn't given up on Ducati building the bike "he wants". What is "he wants"? Does he want the Ducati to be a Yamaha. None of the previous iterations of Ducatis' were "slow" they just needed to be ridden in a different way. Not unlike Dovi's comment about the Yamaha being "different" than the Honda. Nicky's settings might be a new direction that gives VR the solution that he needs. Those settings might have worked on the Carbon bike as well. I'm trying to figure out why very few people don't consider Nicky to be the resident expert rider at Ducati. He has far more experience (and the version GP11, GP11.5 , GP12 etc. is irrelevant, a Duc is a Duc). When Nicky says that this is the best Ducati, the red-shirt-set including the ones with yellow trim should be thanking Nicky and crew and all of HIS data as much if not more than ANYONE else's contributions. An now, it looks like JB should have been getting tips from Nicky's crew from day one. If anything, this experience for JB/VR is a humbling one in that they don't "know it all" even after all their successes. I'm no technician, like some on this forum, and I never gave much weight to changing the engine's "V" layout as being a worthwhile solution to the problem,, and most importantly, neither does Ducati. There are both strengths and weaknesses to every engine layout on the grid. Ride around the former and exploit the latter. So while it might be considered "making-do with what you got", what he's got is the best Ducati in years which deserves the proper time to tweak, without re-inventing the wheel. So far, Ducati have been more than accommodating to team JB, changing more of the bike, by request, than I've seen any manufacturer do, ever.

just another race fans opinion..

[cmb]

i thought all the teams were given more time to test? If that is the case why are they testing at each race? they had time between qatar and jerez to do something or are they waiting for a major change in a few rounds and dont want to waste any test on a failed motor design or frame geometry problem.

[ducati1098s]

Faster-Well I think the chances of Rossi being back on a Yamaha next year are in fact very high indeed and with all the appropriate homeage paid to our cherished Motomatters: until David/Krop shows that he is more than a dedicated race fan with a web-site, access to official press debriefs from all the riders and the chance to hear Italian and Spanish journalists gossiping in the press room, I will take what he says by way of emphatic opinions/statements with a very large pinch of salt. Occasionally one reads of real exclusives where persons with genuine inside knowledge reveal something which they are privvy to eg MCN s exclusive in 2010 announcing Rossis move to Ducati. However I have yet to hear anything from a Yamaha insider with ultimate power that sounds like a locked door on Rossi moving back to Yamaha. With their permanent sponsorship woes, together with VR's huge and continuing popularity I suspect that Lin Jarvis may have the decision taken out of his hands. Certainly Spies has not turned out to be a championship contender so Yamahas succession planning has not exactly been going according to plan either.

On Rossi and the Ducati- the first thing JB did to the Yamaha in Jan 2004 was raise the height of the bike. JB was of the view (as expressed in interviews) that the bike was pushing the front and knew that Rossi needed a short and agile bike. Rossi and JB have been trying to do the same with the Ducati since day one but have just given up now. Does this mean they have been wrong? No..well only in so far as ever thinking that Ducati would ever listen and build such a bike. Long, low and flat is clearly all that Ducati will ever countenance but maybe that is the consequence of a 90 degree L twin .

[Kropotkin]

Faster-Well I think the chances of Rossi being back on a Yamaha next year are in fact very high indeed and with all the appropriate homeage paid to our cherished Motomatters: until David/Krop shows that he is more than a dedicated race fan with a web-site, access to official press debriefs from all the riders and the chance to hear Italian and Spanish journalists gossiping in the press room, I will take what he says by way of emphatic opinions/statements with a very large pinch of salt.

Why are your opinions any more accurate than mine?

[Grahluk]

And with all that has been written about the Rossi saga, just about NOTHING can be confirmed about the problem or the solution or the future of VR (David laid out a few POSSIBLE directions). IMO (which is as right or wrong as anyone's) VR hasn't given up on Ducati building the bike "he wants". What is "he wants"? Does he want the Ducati to be a Yamaha. None of the previous iterations of Ducatis' were "slow" they just needed to be ridden in a different way. Not unlike Dovi's comment about the Yamaha being "different" than the Honda. Nicky's settings might be a new direction that gives VR the solution that he needs. Those settings might have worked on the Carbon bike as well. I'm trying to figure out why very few people don't consider Nicky to be the resident expert rider at Ducati. He has far more experience (and the version GP11, GP11.5 , GP12 etc. is irrelevant, a Duc is a Duc). When Nicky says that this is the best Ducati, the red-shirt-set including the ones with yellow trim should be thanking Nicky and crew and all of HIS data as much if not more than ANYONE else's contributions. An now, it looks like JB should have been getting tips from Nicky's crew from day one. If anything, this experience for JB/VR is a humbling one in that they don't "know it all" even after all their successes. I'm no technician, like some on this forum, and I never gave much weight to changing the engine's "V" layout as being a worthwhile solution to the problem,, and most importantly, neither does Ducati. There are both strengths and weaknesses to every engine layout on the grid. Ride around the former and exploit the latter. So while it might be considered "making-do with what you got", what he's got is the best Ducati in years which deserves the proper time to tweak, without re-inventing the wheel. So far, Ducati have been more than accommodating to team JB, changing more of the bike, by request, than I've seen any manufacturer do, ever.

just another race fans opinion..

Nicky surely doesn't get enough recognition beyond the pats on the head for his work ethic and demeanor. All the same I suspect his role and continued employment in Ducati has been for just that; a hard working control element. They know what they have in Hayden and can probably get an idea of relative progress or setback according to his results and opinions. To risk beating a dead horse the Ducati IS slow. Stoner's relative success and Rossi's evident failure notwithstanding it's a mid to back of the pack machine. It has restrained EVERY riders' potential that has ridden it including the all hallowed Stoner as evidenced by his instant upping of form the moment he turned a wheel on the Honda. It's a dog. It was a dog (even in 2007) and continues to be a dog. Unless the design progresses regardless of Rossi it will never be the choice of any rider who dreams of podiums and championships. That's the facts at present. Let's see if Ducati can make it a race bike without over arching caveats.

[ducati1098s]

Faster-Well I think the chances of Rossi being back on a Yamaha next year are in fact very high indeed and with all the appropriate homeage paid to our cherished Motomatters: until David/Krop shows that he is more than a dedicated race fan with a web-site, access to official press debriefs from all the riders and the chance to hear Italian and Spanish journalists gossiping in the press room, I will take what he says by way of emphatic opinions/statements with a very large pinch of salt.

Why are your opinions any more accurate than mine?

They are not- thats not what Im saying. David may be right of course, but his opinion seems to be being construed as a settled fact as if Rossi or someone from the tribes inner circle had sworn on his bulldogs life to David that it was Ducati or die. That hasn't happened has it?

[dave_m]

All the same I suspect his role and continued employment in Ducati has been for just that; a hard working control element. They know what they have in Hayden and can probably get an idea of relative progress or setback according to his results and opinions.

This is exactly right, Nicky may not have been the lead rider, but his style doesn't clash as badly with the Ducati as some. I've wanted to see Hayden be competitive like he was at Honda, but it doesn't appear Ducati have been moving in the right direction for a while, just based on his results. Rossi has stunk it up on the GP11/12 for sure, but Hayden is good barometer of where Rossi should be. If Rossi were riding in top form, it appears he would be lucky to break into the top 5 on the current Ducati, as Nicky is struggling to stay with satellite Honda riders.

I agree with Krop that it doesn't seem likely that Rossi will return to Yamaha or Honda, but doesn't that depend a little on them trusting the other manufacturer not to hire him as well? Sure, Yamaha may not want Rossi taking points from Lorenzo on a Yamaha, but might they prefer that to Rossi on a Honda? And the same for Honda? There's also the possibility (however unlikely) that Stoner walks away with the title again, and Spies doesn't figure out the M1...then silly season gets a little more interesting.

[ducati1098s]

Yamaha softening re Rossi return.

http://www.twowheelsblog.com/

[Kropotkin]

Yamaha softening re Rossi return.

http://www.twowheelsblog.com/

That is Lin being polite.

[Faster1]

That is Lin being polite.

exactly.

What do you think would happen the first, second and third time VR and Lorenzo caused one another to run off the course fighting for the same piece of real estate (China anyone?)? If it's about championships then it would be "robbing Peter to pay Paul",,, the delusion of Yamaha points. Does any manufacturer really cares who comes in second,, worse yet "we came in second and third". It's ridiculous to think that those 2 alpha males would get along five minutes after this imaginary contract was signed. And Lin of all people knows it. First, the wall would go up , then armed infantry to protect the ground. And Yamaha's realistic and well planned 4 plus year future, now in capable hands, (stacked 4 deep with quality brides maids,, Spies, Cal, Dovi, and Bradley) would see destructive chaos, albeit very entertaining, instead?

[Faster1]

To risk beating a dead horse the Ducati IS slow. Stoner's relative success and Rossi's evident failure notwithstanding it's a mid to back of the pack machine. It has restrained EVERY riders' potential that has ridden it including the all hallowed Stoner as evidenced by his instant upping of form the moment he turned a wheel on the Honda. It's a dog. It was a dog (even in 2007) and continues to be a dog. Unless the design progresses regardless of Rossi it will never be the choice of any rider who dreams of podiums and championships. That's the facts at present. Let's see if Ducati can make it a race bike without over arching caveats.

Fair play,, the list of failed riders is long,, But I've sill remained more on the side of "different" over "slow". The fine pedigree of 250 styles riders owes no apologies. But so far,,, THAT is the problem. When Stoner wasn't crashing, he was winning. not slow. And Haydens "brief flashes of speed remind me of Kawasaki/Sykes Superbike dilemma - The speed to drop the field out of the gates, but the tire preservation deficiencies to eventually be lapped. Kwaks aren't slow either. Then again, the task of preserving tires and going fast can be mutually exclusive to some

Either way, The first three laps of Jerez, #69 was riding like a "pissed off teenager". There wasn't a lack of confidence until the "get out of the seat moment".

We have to keep reminding ourselves that we are only 2 races in..

[Oscar]

I agree with Krop that it doesn't seem likely that Rossi will return to Yamaha or Honda, but doesn't that depend a little on them trusting the other manufacturer not to hire him as well?

I think that particular question was answered by Yamaha in mid '09 by acceding to Lorenzo's demand for equal treatment knowing full well that Rossi wouldn't be happy about it and Honda by its chase for Stoner knowing that Rossi would likely be on the market. Despite the emotive arguments, the bottom line for the companies is ROI and they very definitely put their money where they thought the ROI likely to be greatest. AFAIK, the only recorded case of a company actually paying a departing rider to NOT ride for anybody else, was Honda and Hailwood.

The problem now for Rossi to be on a different bike e.g. say a works Aprillia team, is the lesson that any other manufacturer will have seen from the Ducati situation: if the bike doesn't win with Rossi aboard, then it's the company that wears most of the opprobrium. (and before anybody jumps down my throat - exactly the same thing would happen if they hired Lorenzo or Stoner and didn't shine).

Hayden's performance at Jerez is perhaps the first glimpse since the beginning of the '11 season for Ducati that the light at the end of the tunnel is no more than a flamethrower and the possibility/probability of that being in large measure due to the changes that Rossi's arrival has wrought should not be underestimated or undervalued. Whether Ducati will see it in the same light is questionable: it seems that Ducati clings on very strongly to the idea that 'Ducati builds Ducatis'. Despite the legendary attitude of Honda re the 'bike/rider' equation, Honda is very evidently a company that values building WC-winning bikes above any specific design philosophy and Furasawa also demonstrated that Yamaha knows the value of chasing success over affirming tradition.

The introduction of Audi into the Ducati boardroom may well see changes, but I'd be fairly amazed if that happens this season.

[dave_m]

Fair play,, the list of failed riders is long,, But I've sill remained more on the side of "different" over "slow". The fine pedigree of 250 styles riders owes no apologies. But so far,,, THAT is the problem. When Stoner wasn't crashing, he was winning. not slow. And Haydens "brief flashes of speed remind me of Kawasaki/Sykes Superbike dilemma - The speed to drop the field out of the gates, but the tire preservation deficiencies to eventually be lapped. Kwaks aren't slow either.

This is the Ducati thread, so maybe the horse isn't quite dead yet. I think the Kawasaki comparison doesn't work very well, as Sykes has been on pole all 3 times this year, and the Ducs are no where near the front row unless the weather interferes. Sykes is setting single fast laps, but no Ducati riders have near the outright speed shown by the Kawasaki in WSBK. Hayden's first laps in the race weren't particularly fast either, it just looked impressive because he was near the front and wasn't taking it easy.

As far as 'different' vs 'slow', is that really a distinction that matters? If every rider is slower because it is different, doesn't that mean it's slow? This even applies to Stoner, as he wasn't always winning if he didn't crash. (Different might not be as slow for the right rider, but it's still slow.) I'm not of the opinion that Stoner forgot how to ride in 2010, and the Ducati was much more competitive in 2010 than 2011/2012 for Nicky Hayden. Compare Stoner's 2010 season to 2011 when he was a fixture on the podium:

2011: 1 DNF / 16 podiums
2010: 5 DNF/ 9 podiums / 4 times off the podium

[Japhrodisiac]

2000 posts. Ha!